5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
AD&D is closer to B/X than 5e, IMO. However, I'm also fairly certain a determined DM can make anything work. But if you are looking for a particular feel/style and you don't use the native rules, I believe it will always feel off (long term).
My journey:

I spent about five years running 5E with an old-school spin (e.g. AD&D-inspired Magic Resistance that could negate spells like Wall of Force and Conjure Elemental instead of just giving you advantage on saving-throw-if-any; much slower natural healing; damage is not capped when you reach zero HP and if your HP goes below negative [your max HP] you die). I invented rules where necessary to make interaction modes besides combat entertaining, e.g. establishing trade routes, running for sheriff of the refugee space colony you established after accidentally destroying your home kingdom, building a fearsome reputation as a gladiator by defeating other well-regarded gladiators (high reputation is not the same thing as high-level). I invented multiclassing rules that let you be a classical fighter/mage, while still not being obviously better than a 5E-style Fighter N/Wizard M or a straight Wizard. (Each has its pros and cons and playtesting revealed that players perceived a real opportunity cost to either choice, which is good.) I used WEGO initiative instead of IGOUGO to encourage player cooperation and ward off the dreaded Not-My-Turn Player Disengagement Syndrome that afflicts so many 5E games.

But it was a lot of work, and I still had to deal with lots of 5Eisms that just didn't seem idiomatic to change but also didn't have a solid grounding in game logic. For example, why do I have to teach new players that "you can cast two spells on the same turn if you Action Surge, but not if you Quicken one of them because you can't cast a bonus action spell and a non-cantrip spell on the same turn." And why can a Lore Bard use his mouth to recite verbal components to cast a spell "as an action" on the same round he is using a flute as his spell focus for material spell components as part of the same action *and* giving an inspiring speech to one of his comrades via Bardic Inspiration "as a bonus action" *and* denigrate his enemies to impede their performance via Cutting Words "as a reaction"? How many mouths does this Bard have exactly? Honestly this never came up in play, but the fact that if it had I would have had to shrug helplessly and point to the rulebook while saying "It didn't seem fair to you to change it," that bothered me. WotC writes rules in game jargon and with a combat-centric focus ("as a bonus action [during combat] you can inspire...") instead of in-character ("before a battle you can make a short speech to inspire..."), and while in some cases an appropriate fig leaf can be found, other times it's just an ongoing challenge to suspension of disbelief.

And then there's stuff like teaching new players how Concentration works (note: AD&D has concentration mechanics where it makes sense for specific spells, but they are self-explanatory) or that you only get one bonus action per round, and the horrible exploitable mess that is the mounted combat rules.

And then I started remembering how much I enjoy things like AD&D priestly spheres that make a priest of Oghma feel different from a Christian Cleric or a priestess of Idun, and thri-kreen and half-giants that are actually very different from humans both in cultural and RP terms and also in mechanical terms.

And I started losing my desire to run old-school 5E instead of just running a TSR variant. And shortly after that (within a year), my last 5E campaign ended. I'm still interested in 5E as a platform for CRPGs and DM tools (my current project, https://maxwilson.github.io/ShiningSword/, supports both AD&D and 5E) but I may never run 5E again as a TTRPG. But I'm increasingly feeling ready to run my close friends through OSR or AD&D modules like we were kids again, but with greater sophistication that comes from age.

So that's my experience. You *can* do old-school adventures using 5E, and it works okay, but eventually you start asking yourself why you're using 5E as a base and there's not a good answer.
 
Last edited:

Yora

Should be playing D&D instead
I am currently contemplating running another 5th edition campaign because... (*sigh*) I want to run Forgotten Realms! (1987 style, though.)
I have now stopped contemplating running another 5th edition campaign.

I'm so done with that company and doing anything that promotes their products.
 

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
I have now stopped contemplating running another 5th edition campaign.

I'm so done with that company and doing anything that promotes their products.
Hopefully this isn't just schadenfreude, but... what changed in between last week and this week?

Was it as simple as looking at their recent output? (Here's my review of their latest book: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646498-Dante-Haphazardly-Reviews-MPMoM-Monster-Changes)

In the idiom of this forum, my overall observation based on Jeremy Crawford interviews and recent output is that WotC's recent designs reduce interactivity in pursuit of more consistent damage, making monsters less likely to fail to live up to their Challenge Ratings: e.g. Skulks previously had this interesting thing where you could drastically nerf their damage output by casting a Fog Cloud to reduce their to-hit AND damage. The new version has a more consistent damage output, less affected by player choices.

Needless to say I think this is wrongheaded and a grave mistake. Even neo-trad players with an OC agenda want their decisions to *matter*.
 
Last edited:

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Even neo-trad players with an OC agenda want their decisions to *matter*.
At the very least, they want their build choices to matter. Nerfing Fog Cloud's effectiveness for a niche monster is kind of lame.

From the bit I have played, if find 5e to be ... fine? Kind of uninspired? It seems to do a fair job of a lot of things, without being really good at anything. I am sure I could do more with it if I internalized the system, but it doesn't really motivate me to try.
 

Yora

Should be playing D&D instead
Hopefully this isn't just schadenfreude, but... what changed in between last week and this week?
Virtue signaling by giving away free rainbow colored stuff as downloads for Queer Pride month, but region locking it for countries where that might be seen as offensive. That's a new level of scumminess I could not even have imagined to exist. This is like publishing photos of yourself with giant cheques for charity that you never actually hand over.

And this is not a small stupid accident. This is a consistent pattern that goes back decades.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Do we expect them to operate like a charity?

As long as they keep bringing fresh faces into the hobby and keeping it relevant, I'm cool with it. I don't have to buy into it, but I appreciate the game not disappearing into stagnancy and obscurity so I can enjoy continuing support and constantly renewed resources for my older games online.
 

Yora

Should be playing D&D instead
They could simply have done nothing, and nothing would have happened.

But faking participation in an event to promote tolerance for people affected by oppression because it makes you look good with your customers is trying to make monetary gain from oppression.
As a one-time faux pas, I wouldn't have given it any second thought. But this is a consistent behavior. It's not the cause I am done with them, it's just the trigger.
 

TerribleSorcery

Should be playing D&D instead
Virtue signaling by giving away free rainbow colored stuff as downloads for Queer Pride month, but region locking it for countries where that might be seen as offensive. That's a new level of scumminess I could not even have imagined to exist. This is like publishing photos of yourself with giant cheques for charity that you never actually hand over.

And this is not a small stupid accident. This is a consistent pattern that goes back decades.
As a friend of mine loves to say:
"Welcome to Now.
Population: YOU"
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
For modern D&D, I strongly prefer PF 2e. I think D&D 5e doesn't quite succeed on its own aesthetic terms, regardless of what one thinks of those terms. PF 2e commits more consistently to a more vividly realised vision with similar values to 5e's.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Just that WotC is a little too obsessed with the money grab, and that's their current flagship.

Oh, and I was mocking the website of the (now deleted) spambot.

Not terribly clever on my part.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
For modern D&D, I strongly prefer PF 2e. I think D&D 5e doesn't quite succeed on its own aesthetic terms, regardless of what one thinks of those terms. PF 2e commits more consistently to a more vividly realised vision with similar values to 5e's.
Interesting. I'm at that age where I'm just not interested in new game additions. What did PF 2e add that PF 1e didn't have? I am interested in hearing what you like about PF 2e.

(granted I'm still not going to buy it, because I AM TOO OLD)
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
Interesting. I'm at that age where I'm just not interested in new game additions. What did PF 2e add that PF 1e didn't have? I am interested in hearing what you like about PF 2e.

(granted I'm still not going to buy it, because I AM TOO OLD)
Lots! PF 2e kind of takes a lot of deep insights from the last three editions of D&D (and beyond) and then applies a rationalising sensibility to it all. A lot of what makes it a good game is the fine details, how things fit together in ways that one of those editions wanted to accomplish but failed at. But outside of finicky details, here are a few things I particularly admire about it that are distinct from PF 1e:

1) PF 2e uses a number of "modes" which serve as procedural containers. In the base game these are "encounter mode" used for combat, focused social interaction, and focused task resolution and is conducted in rounds; "exploration mode" which takes pace in units of ~10 minutes and covers various kinds of site exploration and extended activities; and "downtime" which covers accomplishing long projects and is tracked in days or weeks. The Gamemastery Guide includes an overland travel procedure that uses days. This kind of procedural clarity combined with distinct time scales is something I really like in games for helping to clarify what can be done when in clear terms.

2) Caster / martial disparity is rebalanced in an effective way by redesigning the spell lists and entries and embedded within a combat system that offers a wide variety of rich, mechanically-encoded tactical options that encourage PCs to do more than shoot their most powerful lasers or stand there swinging for the fences. This expands out beyond combat to many other kinds of activities, where it is finally worthwhile to play a skilled character who will not simply be outshone by a wizard packing the right spells, and for party members to work together to pass tasks rather than just leaving it up to the most skilled character.

3) The new crit / success / fail / crit fail opens up a lot of gradations of success across the system that provide useful scaffolding for referee adjudication of the results of a roll, and are incorporated across a variety of subsystems, from combat actions to spell design to skill usage in ways that are very interesting and well done.

Those are just a few of the reasons. I think PF 2e's optional templates for things like encounters and adventures are great teaching tools and help one understand the structure and flow of play across each session and then between sessions of an adventure, and then between adventures. Overall just a very polished, well-made game that really studied its predecessors in the d20 design space and committed to learning how to replicate their best features while mitigating as many of their flaws as possible.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
That's exactly why I believe AD&D is a superior game --- a thoughtful revision to fix holes authored by the same crew that did the previous edition. It's not an ignorant "let's burn it all down and start over", but a true revision based on usage.

If that's the case with Pathfinder 2e, it's likely much improved. Continuity with institutional knowledge, and incremental refinement is a tried-and-true path to progress. Of course, some of the "improvements" will work---others not-so-much. You just need to be self-honest enough of recognize the difference. It's a process.

Not-invented-here-syndrome = let's redo it so that "our gang" can put our stamp on it with some trendy gloss and half-baked notions (i.e. repeat old mistakes) is generally egotistical rubbish.
 

Johann

*eyeroll*
I think PF 2e's optional templates for things like encounters and adventures are great teaching tools and help one understand the structure and flow of play across each session and then between sessions of an adventure, and then between adventures.
Sounds interesting, especially as I've been using dungeon templates (i.e. sets of changes to be applied to an existing dungeon). Could you elaborate?
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
PF 2e kind of takes a lot of deep insights from the last three editions of D&D
This is interesting to me because just the other day I took a dive looking to satisfy my confirmation bias that PF2e sucks and why'd they have to go and reinvent the wheel. All I found were literally hundreds of glowing reviews with one or two disgruntled players lamenting the loss of complexity. Despite that, I guess there's just a doomed vibe attached to this iteration. That and everyone already invested heavily in the first edition and have more than enough material for several lifetimes. It just doesn't appear to be gaining traction against 5e.

I think a key indicator of where the consumer is at is I thought I'd pick up one of their classic AP's; Kingmaker or one of the ones where you get to play a totally rad, evil Hellknight; recently. I picked up a bagged collection of Iron Gods for like $5/book two years ago. Now, these things are going for $40+/book. Kingmaker will easily set you back $500 for the complete collection. People are digging in with the old system is what that implies to me.
 
Top