Book Fucking Talk

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
I really liked Jesse Bullington's 'Tragic Tail of the Brothers Grosbart'. His fantasy 'Crimson Empire' series under the Alex Marshall pen name was pure escapist, grimdark, D&D goodness.
I've seen that brothers Grossbart title come by a couple of times as well as Alex Marshall in the ABC bookstore so that sounds right up my alley.


[Spoiler Alert] One way or the other, he shags his (adult) daughter later on anyway so...
It's pretty interesting the reversal that happens as you start out liking Kelhus and hating Cnaiur and by the end you're taking refuge in Cnaiur's savage humanity.
Refuge is the right word. Last paragraphs involving Cnaiur are damn vivid and memorable btw.
 

TerribleSorcery

Should be playing D&D instead
What did I read on my summer vacation:

Dennis Wheatley - The Satanist

Holy FUCK this one was boring. It really made me question my youthful enjoyment of "The Devil Rides Out," which warped my young brain towards Lucifer pretty early on - I think my dad gave it to me when I was 14 or 15? Anyway in The Satanist, devil-worship is connected to Communism (hahaha, it was written in 1960). A special branch agent is dead, and a hot-headed Irish guy is assigned to track down his killers. Meanwhile the young agent's widow conducts her own off-book investigation, which seems mainly geared towards constantly keeping you in fear of her being discovered and subjected to the Devil Dick Orgy (spoiler: no orgy occurs). Double meanwhile, the two protagonists have an awkward romance while not telling each other about their respective lines of inquiry. Basically an unnecessarily bloated plotline kills this one, although I did read it all the way to the end. Tellingly, Wheatley's flair for adventure comes back towards the climax as the power of evil mounts and the good guys have to get out of a few sticky situations. At over 500 fuckin' pages, would have done better under 3. Also, trigger warning for depictions of non-modern ideas on race & sex relations.

But then he redeemed himself with...

Dennis Wheatley - Strange Conflict

Fuck Yeah. The Duc de Richleau and his friends (same crew as in The Devil Rides Out) up against the Nazis. This book was actually written in '43, so prepare for glorious propaganda (Vichy France takes a beating)! Anyway, somehow the German u-boats in the Atlantic always know exactly where the American convoys are. Perhaps the occult is involved?? You bet it is. A tight 280 pages of astral projection, voodoo rituals, the protagonists almost dying of exposure or being eaten by sharks, this is the real pulp shit. My obsessive crawling of used bookstores continues to pay off.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Has anyone mentioned 'Snakewood' - Adrian Selby yet? This super gritty fantasy world based on the concept of fighters who load up on potions to fight. Like the whole world is this potions arms race. And combining all these potions poisons you and requires the care of a druid-like medic in every paramilitary unit. Full of betrayal and mercenary good times. The fantasy slang is a little impenetrable at times and the author definitely assumes you can put the pieces together yourself and is extremely sparing on the expository text (too much so for my taste) Still a fantastic read.

Anyway, I've been reading his follow up 'The Winter Road' and HOLY SHIT is it savage and teeth-grittingly brutal. You do not need to read the first one to read the second. Definitely worth a dive right in!
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Holy FUCK this one was boring. It really made me question my youthful enjoyment of "The Devil Rides Out," which warped my young brain towards Lucifer pretty early on - I think my dad gave it to me when I was 14 or 15? Anyway in The Satanist, devil-worship is connected to Communism (hahaha, it was written in 1960).
Wikipedia: "Another prominent 19th century anarchist, the Russian Mikhail Bakunin, similarly described the figure of Satan as "the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds" in his book God and the State.[97] These ideas likely inspired the American feminist activist Moses Harman to name his anarchist periodical Lucifer the Lightbearer.[98] The idea of this "Leftist Satan" declined during the twentieth century,[98] although it was used on occasion by authorities within the Soviet Union, who portrayed Satan as a symbol of freedom and equality. "

I don't know if promoting Satanism "as a symbol of freedom" still counts, but the Commies do have a history with the Prince of Darkness, and you can add Saul Alinsky to that list. *tinfoil hat engaged*

Dennis Wheatley - Strange Conflict
This author is starting to sound surprisingly metal. I'll have to add Wheatley to my growing list of shit to I read. Same goes for Potion Mercenary adventures if I run out of ultra-violent sword-fighting fantasy to read. How is Potion-fighter compared to Black Company, Witcher or Conan.

A Voyage to Arcturus - David Lindsay: One of the inspirations for the weird lovecraft-and-planet world of Carcosa. I'd read it long years past and considered it almost impenetrable then but it is actually a deeply unsettling, creative work of proto-cosmic horror that transports the reader to the young and untamed world of Arcturus with the voyager Maskull, where he encounters various bizarre characters. Each land and its inhabitants is more a physical representation of some 19th century philosophy complete with new facial organs, a strange odyssey of metamorphoses, death, murder and disillusionment across a savage, strange and wondrous land in a quest for the meaning of existence. I don't know anything weirder, but the title masterpiece does apply.

The Mahabarata (inferior shit version) - I picked up and loved it only to discover mine is an inferior version without a glossary, some errors with the names, an index of the 100+ characters, no notes from the translator and a semi-arbitrary cut-off that does not resolve the conflict. I essentially read the heavily cropped version which is still 680 pages or so. Prepare for a fantasy epic that makes the Illiad look puny and constrained by comparison. A multi-generational epic involving the Kauravas and the Pandavas, with two billion other myths and events folded into the narrative. Heroes regularly archer-duel with 1000 combatants simultaneously, women get impregnated by rivers, men grapple with gods and asuras, sages acquire super-powers through ascetic penances, brahmana's wax rhapsodically about the nature of duty and virtue and heroes on both sides meet in conflicts that devour the world. Hopelessly confusing without any sort of notes even WITHOUT the Mahabarata's penchant for characters with identical names as well as characters with multiple names, an open webpage to the Hinduism Wiki is a virtual requirement. The story resolves with the battle between two great heroes, the invincible Arjuna and the immortal Bhishma firing arrows and celestial weaponry into eachother for ten days and killing tens of thousands of soldiers. About as close to Dragonball Z as mythology is going to get. Recommended but get the Penguin version.

Bran Mak Morn (Robert E Howard) - Its good to see Howard's other tales are just as good as his Conan stuff. Bran Mak Morn, last king of the Picts, takes place in doom-haunted, fog-shrouded Britain, and is one part brooding, three parts ancient sorcery and nine parts blood-red savagery in fourth century Britain. Britons and Celts and Picts fight the soldiers of Imperial Rome! Hideous powers that dwell in the darkness beneath the earth are invoked in quests for vengeance. My favorite tale in the collection is the superb 'Worms of the Earth,' a more atmospheric short work of dark fantasy you will seldom find.

The Curse of the Wise Woman (Lord Dunstany) - I'm digging into the old stuff and I am digging it hard. About as far from any Appendix N as you are likely to get, the novel is more of a forlorn love letter to an Ireland that once was and a tragic reflection on the cost of progress then anything weird or S&S related. Dunstany's prose is hypnotically beautiful as he describes days of hunting on the Fen or encounters with the proto-IRA, until all is rudely shattered by the arrival of a Peat-Plant near the Swamp. An old woman living in a hut might have a solution...

I just started in two hard to find paperbacks by Karl Edward Wagner. Kane - Dark Crusade and Kane - Death's Shadow. Gloriously dark S&S pulp.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Just discovered that Walt Simonson has e new Ragnarok Thor (alternate Norse Mythos) graphic novel out there!
First comics I've purchased in a loooong time, but I am excited!

I learned about it here in his little sketch-video interview.
 

bryce0lynch

i fucking hate writing ...
Staff member
. Dunstany's prose is hypnotically beautiful as he describes days of hunting on the Fen or encounters with the proto-IRA,
Machen, The White People is the best I've seen in this area. Not having seen Dunsany, I'd be interested to hear your impressions.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Machen, The White People is the best I've seen in this area. Not having seen Dunsany, I'd be interested to hear your impressions.
Dunstany is next level, most of the stories I have read (King of Elfland's Daughter, Curse of the Wise Woman) concern the interplay between magic and the mundane or real. Where Curse of the Wise Woman ruminates on the loss of a childhood Ireland that was once wild, wonderful and untamed to the inexorable grinding march of progress and industrialisation, King of Elfland's daughter is set in a faerie-tale land bordering on the Realm of Faerie and is much more wonderful and whimsical.


In their ruddy jackets of leather that reached to their knees the men of Erl appeared before their lord, the stately white-haired man in his long red room. He leaned in his carven chair and heard their spokesman.

And thus their spokesman said.

"For seven hundred years the chiefs of your race have ruled us well; and their deeds are remembered by the minor minstrels, living on yet in their little tinkling songs. And yet the generations stream away, and there is no new thing."

"What would you?" said the lord.

"We would be ruled by a magic lord," they said.

"So be it," said the lord. "It is five hundred years since my people have spoken thus in parliament, and it shall always be as your parliament saith. You have spoken. So be it."
We are confronted by impossible yearnings and desires, men chasing idle pipe-dreams that might be real, the terror of the Realm of Faerie intruding into the realm of the mundane and the terrible power of the Three Runes of the Elf King.

On the high balcony of his gleaming tower the King of Elfland stood. Below him echoed yet the thousand steps. He had lifted his head to chant the rune that should hold his daughter in Elfland, and in that moment had seen her pass the murky barrier; which on this side, facing toward Elfland, is all lustrous with twilight, and on that side, facing towards the fields we know, is smoky and angry and dull. And now he had dropped his head till his beard lay mingled with his cape of ermine above his cerulean cloak, and stood there silently sorrowful, while time passed swift as ever over the fields we know.
Though for sheer imagination one cannot match his Gods of Pegana series, which was compiled in an excellent Chaosium omnibus, The Complete Pegana, and concerns a completely imaginary world, if not worlds, pantheon, cosmology and the myths and lays of its deities. Almost a proto-Silmarillion but utterly different, the Gods of Pegana are pagan and fickle and terrifying. There is an heir of pagan fatalism to the cosmology of Pegana. Read of a man who in his hubris laments death, and so the gods curse him with immortality. Read of a great king who raises his host against Time, the one thing that will lay low all he has built. Read of a thousand prophets proclaiming a thousand truths in wind-swept, sun-baked cities as man comes to grips with the fickle will of gods and an uncaring universe.

And the King said, "Is Time then here?"

And one of the old men pointed to a great castle standing on a steep hill and said: "Therein dwells Time, and we are his people;" and they all looked curiously at King Karnith Zo, and the eldest of the villagers spoke again and said: "Whence do you come, you that are so young?" and Karnith Zo told him how he had come to conquer Time to save the world and the gods, and asked them whence they came.

And the villagers said:

"We are older than always, and know not whence we came, but we are the people of Time, and here from the Edge of Everything he sends out his hours to assail the world, and you may never conquer Time." But the King went back to his armies, and pointed towards the castle on the hill and told them that at last they had found the Enemy of the Earth; and they that were older than always went back slowly into their houses with the creaking of olden doors. And there they went across the fields and passed the village. From one of his towers Time eyed them all the while, and in battle order they closed in on the steep hill as Time sat still in his great tower and watched.

But as the feet of the foremost touched the edge of the hill Time hurled five years against them, and the years passed over their heads and the army still came on, an army of older men. But the slope seemed steeper to the King and to every man in his army, and they breathed more heavily. And Time summoned up more years, and one by one he hurled them at Karnith Zo and at all his men. And the knees of the army stiffened, and their beards grew and turned grey, and the hours and days and the months went singing over their heads, and their hair turned whiter and whiter, and the conquering hours bore down, and the years rushed on and swept the youth of that army clear away till they came face to face under the walls of the castle of Time with a mass of howling years, and found the top of the slope too steep for aged men. Slowly and painfully, harassed with agues and chills, the King rallied his aged army that tottered down the slope.
 

TerribleSorcery

Should be playing D&D instead
Wikipedia: "Another prominent 19th century anarchist, the Russian Mikhail Bakunin, similarly described the figure of Satan as "the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds" in his book God and the State.[97] These ideas likely inspired the American feminist activist Moses Harman to name his anarchist periodical Lucifer the Lightbearer.[98] The idea of this "Leftist Satan" declined during the twentieth century,[98] although it was used on occasion by authorities within the Soviet Union, who portrayed Satan as a symbol of freedom and equality. "

I don't know if promoting Satanism "as a symbol of freedom" still counts, but the Commies do have a history with the Prince of Darkness, and you can add Saul Alinsky to that list. *tinfoil hat engaged*

....

Bran Mak Morn (Robert E Howard) - Its good to see Howard's other tales are just as good as his Conan stuff.
LOL @ the "Leftist Satan"! I guess people can use him in their causes the same as JC. Neither have lodged a complaint yet, eh?

I'm glad you dug BMM. My used bookstore-hunts have turned up many Howard "deep cuts" over the years, but I haven't read them all yet. I have Marchers of Valhalla (Norse-themed AFAIK) and Tigers of the Sea, which is a comp of Cormac Mac Art tales. I think he makes an appearance in one of the stories in my copy of Worms of the Earth, actually. And WOLFSHEAD, a collection of Howard's horror and/or "weird tales" stories, the man could dish that stuff out just as well as HPL or CAS. Highly recommend that one.
 

bryce0lynch

i fucking hate writing ...
Staff member
Town, the companion volume to Fief

This is about 150 pages and is a companion volume to Fief. It explains how tons work in the dark ages, giving a brief overview, broken up in to many sections, of how each aspect of town life operated. It's been written with RPG's in mind, but is just background information, with no rules, tables, or the like. It's just for someone to get an overview of hows towns really operated.
Meh. Ok I guess. I was really excited about the book and now I'm not. A kind of brutalism where the landowner converts excess agriculture product to cash by creating a town ... and EVERYTHING costs. Now, build up from that basic assumption.
I'll probably read Fief next, the first volume in the series.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Vathek - William Barton. HOLY SHIT. About the only fantasy novel I know that does any justice to mythic Arabia and it was written before the 20th century. Churned out in 4 days by victorian age Iron Man, Vathek is a voluptuous nightmare of the distant orient, replete with exotic locales, descriptions of decadent palaces, eccentric holy men and mighty Intelligences. The Caliph Vathek, corrupted by promises of the wealth of pre-adamite Sultans, forsakes the teachings of Muhammad and undergoes a journey to distant Ishtabar, to the Halls of Subterrene Fires. On his luxurious way he encounters characters supernatural and commits acts foul as his soul becomes a battleground for the forces of heaven and hell. There are stories within stories, and of particular interest are the tales of the other dwellers of the Palace of Eblis, each one outlining the means of their damnation. The lack of chapters might daunt the faint of heart, but this one was well worth it.

Egil's Saga - E.R.R. Eddison Translation. One of the legendary Icelandic Sagas, lovingly translated by one of the greatest authors of the 20th century. A historical account of the voyages of Egil, Son of Skallagrim, and his harryings, feuds, marriages and alliances, written with a poet's sensibilities. The prose is unadorned, masculine, direct, and attains a potency that is hard to describe. Feuds with King Harold Hairfair, disputes over grazing land, Hölmgangs with the Berserker Ljot the Pale, wars against Scotts for English Kings and tales of Rabbelasian Revelry in the halls of Murderous outlaw Thanes. I bought other Sagas quickly, and am eager for the sequel.

Ramayana (penguin classics abridged version) - The original well over 100.000 words, this elegant prose version can be read in a day, and concerns the exploits of the Hero Rama, incarnation of Vishnu, sent to earth to be the doom of the ten-armed Demon-King Ravana, who rules over all the worlds. A mythic odyssey across a beautiful, fertile India of myth ensues. Battles are waged with Monkey-Kings and countless Asuras, the shape-changing Hanuman steps over the ocean, the quest for True Love and the universe trembles at the fury of the last battle. Good, solid mythology, from a source few have tried to plumb the fathomless depths of.

The Well of the Unicorn - Fletcher Pratt. A little remembered gem of high-fantasy written shortly after WW2, Well of the Unicorn concerns the exploits of a band of rebels reluctantly commanded by the protagonist Airar Alvarson against the rule of the Vulkings. A moody, morally ambiguous work, riven with brooding introspection and difficult decision, rich with archaic language and a mature low fantasy treatment that grants it great depth but make it somewhat inaccessible at first. Comparable to Game of Thrones without any of its sensationalist violence or plot-twist heavy stunt writing. Tenuous alliances, difficult decisions, a smattering of sorcery, strategems, and the real dillemmas of rulership. Well worth checking out if you are into low fantasy.

I'm glad you dug BMM. My used bookstore-hunts have turned up many Howard "deep cuts" over the years, but I haven't read them all yet. I have Marchers of Valhalla (Norse-themed AFAIK) and Tigers of the Sea, which is a comp of Cormac Mac Art tales. I think he makes an appearance in one of the stories in my copy of Worms of the Earth, actually. And WOLFSHEAD, a collection of Howard's horror and/or "weird tales" stories, the man could dish that stuff out just as well as HPL or CAS. Highly recommend that one.
I ordered a collection of Howard's horror stories after I'd worked through Lovecraft. Should prove interesting.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
I'm glad you dug BMM. My used bookstore-hunts have turned up many Howard "deep cuts" over the years, but I haven't read them all yet. I have Marchers of Valhalla (Norse-themed AFAIK) and Tigers of the Sea, which is a comp of Cormac Mac Art tales. I think he makes an appearance in one of the stories in my copy of Worms of the Earth, actually. And WOLFSHEAD, a collection of Howard's horror and/or "weird tales" stories, the man could dish that stuff out just as well as HPL or CAS. Highly recommend that one.
I got The Haunter of the Ring & Other Tales by Robert E. Howard. Overall impression: Fantastic pulp stories, okay horror stories.
R.E. Howard is manifestly unable to write stories without pulse-pounding lightning-fast action scenes in them. He just can't do it. The rare exceptions are generally of lesser quality, though I enjoyed the eponymous The Sea-Curse. His pulp tales involving the adamantium-boiled detective Mallone and the elixer-powered ex-opium addict from the Skull-Face are among the best in the collection. Mongol Opium-Barons, Millenia-old Atlantian Sorcerers, African killers raised as leopards, Covens of Satanists harnessing mysterious means of electricity-generation, the book is a treasure trove of hard-hitting, pulse-pounding sinister pulp action. His stories excel in gruesome, atavistic S&S splendour when his protagonists are transported back to antedeluvian times, where the first Celts cross bronze blades with the hideous troglodytic race of subhumans that predated the Picts. The Children of the Night and the People of the Dark. But he is a master of more classic fantasy too, with the tense Wolfhead and the awe-inspiring The Cairn on the Headland, where we witness the spirits of the outer-darkness men once worshipped as the Aesir set foot on the world once more. He is not as terrifying as Lovecraft because his stories are too vividly intense, his protagonists too energetic, always surging forward headlong into danger. That being said, The Fires of Assurbarnipal and The Horror From the Mound are great lovecraftian tales, and the visions of orgiastic rites in the latter stay with one long after the book is finished. Rugged, vibrant, manly yarns, without the nihilism accompanying many such contemporary fare. Recommended if you love pulp, love a good fantastic yarn or are curious to learn what all the fuss is about. Not for the meek, the squeemish or the faint of heart. Enjoy with; Whiskey straight from the bottle, Beef Jerky, Weights, Steak
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@PrinceofNothing Like you I embarked on an Appendix N voyage when I got back into D&D.

I only got as far as:
  • The Howard Conan Anthologies
  • Lovercraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath
  • Vance's The Dying Earth collection
  • Leiber's Swords Against Deviltry
I enjoyed all, but some more than others.

Conan was great fun, but got a bit repetitive.

Lovercraft's Dreamlands was immensely inspirational---it really got my imagination going. However, I don't think I could in anyway call him a master story teller---he knows how to describe the heck out of something, and the ideas are cool---but plot mechanics seem to at times be missing. You are always observing his characters from a great distance. Also, based on that one collection, I do not understand why his stories are labeled as horrific.

Of the whole bunch, Vance left me the coldest. I have a hard time in general with unlikable protagonists such as Crudgel. Some of the other stories were more enjoyable, but also very "light hearted", and failed to draw me in.

Leiber I plan to read more of. It was clear that his world was the inspirational setting of AD&D far more than Middle-Earth (or anything else). I found him to be the most competent all-around writer, too.

If you've read more Lovecraft. Please suggest where I should go next in his books.

Cheers!
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Conan was great fun, but got a bit repetitive.
I can see that, especially if you read the entire collection.

Of the whole bunch, Vance left me the coldest. I have a hard time in general with unlikable protagonists such as Crudgel. Some of the other stories were more enjoyable, but also very "light hearted", and failed to draw me in.
I thought Vance's stuff was incredibly creative and whimsical. If you want a more traditional fantasy you might want to look into Lyonesse, which is superb.

Leiber I plan to read more of. It was clear that his world was the inspirational setting of AD&D far more than Middle-Earth (or anything else). I found him to be the most competent all-around writer, too.
Very true. I read all of the Faffhrd & the Grey Mauser stories. They are almost all good, though they decline near the end as more wacky shit gets introduced. The once exception is the last collection, the Knight & Knave of Swords, which is so awful I put it down halfway through and sold it off so it would not tarnish my collection.

If you've read more Lovecraft. Please suggest where I should go next in his books.
You've read...his dreamlands stuff yes? Dream-Quest is fantastic but very aery and dreamlike (duh). If you want more straight up horror, I recommend his classics; The Horror at Red Hook, The Call of Cthulhu, At the Mountains of Madness, The Mound, The Shadow Out of Time, The Shadow over Innsmouth and The Case of Charles Dexter Ward. Fantastic, imaginative, thrilling stuff. The distance remains but they are more terrifying, and nobody quite builds an atmosphere like Lovecraft.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Thanks Prince! I'll try to pick up Mountains of Madness next.

Also, although he is seldom mentioned, and not (?) in Appendix N --- I really like Zelazny. I adore his Lovercraft-ian A Lonesome Night in October (I even having put a Moriarty-type in my campaign who is possessed, like Zelazny's Jack the Ripper, by a demonic cursed knife )---and I have read (but can not locate after the long decades) some great short-stories of his about dueling wizards. I plan on reading his Amber books some time soon.

Attention Lurkers: You need to go over and read Prince blog post on Appendix N and the Illiad, i.e. the sacking of Troy. It opened my eyes to some historical truths. Absolutely brilliant!
 
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PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Also, although he is seldom mentioned, and not (?) in Appendix N --- I really like Zelazny. I adore his Lovercraft-ian A Lonesome Night in October (I even having put a Moriarty-type in my campaign who is possessed, like Zelazny's Jack the Ripper, by a demonic cursed knife )---and I have read (but can not locate after the long decades) some great short-stories of his about dueling wizards. I plan on reading his Amber books some time soon.
I knew we were going to be booktalk buddies. Zelazny's Amber and Shadow-jack are in Appendix N. Shadowjack is creative but the plot is fairly standard, Amber is a whole nother ballgame. I don't know anything remotely like it, it's a bizarre power struggle between a family of demi-gods for the literal centre of the multiverse. It's wild. I read the first five books, an Arc if you will, there are 10 total. There isn't really anything like it. Very very good.
That being said, my favorite is probably Lord of Light, a science fiction re-imagining of the legend of the Budda. Very engaging.

Attention Lurkers: You need to go over a read Prince blog post on Appendix N and the Illiad, i.e. the sacking of Troy. It opened my eyes to many historical truths. Absolutely brilliant!
Thank you for your kind words. It's not super coherent but its a decent overview of a damn fine book.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I can't remember where I saw it (Pathfinder? 4th Edition?) but one of the core rulebooks of the newer games updated Appendix N. I'll have to find it and post it to see what you guys think of it.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
This reminds me of one fault that 1e PHB did have. If you are going to allow certain PC races to have 19 Dex or 19 Con, you need to show those scores on your ability score charts.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
There we go, it's in Pathfinder's Game Mastery Guide. An appendix for recommended books and recommended movies. They have an entry for Gary.
Gygax, Gary E: Gord the Rogue series, et al.
 
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