Comments on Reviews.....and art

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Why can't I post comments on Bryce's reviews? Really annoying. Am I banned or something? I've tried on 2 different computers and a phone. The 'post' button always disappears or if I do manage to post, I get an error and the message is erased.

So for Incandescent Grottoes--in reply to the others who probably won't see this.

Everyone wants ease of use....right? To me, art is a ease of use tool. I can run an encounter sometimes by just looking at good art. I think its an important part of the overall product. Would you find a comic book useful or even buy one without art?


There...I said it...I feel better.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Hard agree. The art is like the most useful bookmark/highlighter possible.

...but can also totally ruin the vibe of a product if the aesthetic is off.

Careful with that Axe Eugene!
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
I think art is meaningful from a layout perspective (just as a general good practice of layout design, art is an imperative along the same design lines as principles like spacing and alignment).

From a DMing perspective though, I've never found art to be all that helpful unless is was art that: 1) I could show directly to the players, or 2) the art was intended to communicate something to me visually in a way that text has a hard time doing (which is less helpful since I still have to figure out how to convey that to the players using words anyway).

Would you find a comic book useful or even buy one without art?
A comic book is art though. That's like asking if you'd buy a book without words, or watch a film without images. You literally can't use it, unlike an art-less adventure module which still has uses.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Why can't I post comments on Bryce's reviews? Really annoying. Am I banned or something? I've tried on 2 different computers and a phone. The 'post' button always disappears or if I do manage to post, I get an error and the message is erased.
There is something odd about how the blog comments are set up, where if you say more than about ten words the button is pushed down to some point on the frame that is impossible to click. I've mostly given up commenting for the same difficulties.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I've had that happened too, but there's a work around --- dang if I can remember what?
Hitting the TAB key to cycle through the widgets?
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
Its the button being pushed down.

Re art

There is a one page dungeon that is just a picture. Lair of mad mage or something

It is what you type, distribute, series of tubes
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I think art is meaningful from a layout perspective (just as a general good practice of layout design, art is an imperative along the same design lines as principles like spacing and alignment).

From a DMing perspective though, I've never found art to be all that helpful unless is was art that: 1) I could show directly to the players, or 2) the art was intended to communicate something to me visually in a way that text has a hard time doing (which is less helpful since I still have to figure out how to convey that to the players using words anyway).



A comic book is art though. That's like asking if you'd buy a book without words, or watch a film without images. You literally can't use it, unlike an art-less adventure module which still has uses.
Maybe its a left brain vs. right brain thing...but most of the adventures I have written by myself is because I saw a piece of art (usually the cover).

I see a comic book as relaying a story. It focuses on art, but there are also words. An adventure can do the same thing if done right except have more of a focus on words but still use art.
 

bryce0lynch

i fucking hate writing ...
Staff member
No one is banned anymore, not even Kent.

I'll do some research and see if i can figure out whats wrong
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Art breaks up the page. Looking at a two page spread of pure text is awful.
Art inspires the DM and occasionally shows ideas for how the designer intended the encounter to work.
Art is better than a thousand words. I wish more products would clip their art and include it in the back matter the same way they do with maps so they can easily be printed and cut out for presentation. Unless there's spoilers in the illustration, art (other than fancy filler decorations) is almost always useable as player aids. Even the spoilers can be presented once the trap/ambush/etc is sprung.

Unless your adventure is extremely short there is no excuse to not have art. A bland, text product is a total turn off. I don't care if the writing is the pinnacle of design, efficiency and evocativeness and the idea/theme turns the whole industry on it's head. I'll never know, because I can't get past the drab, sprawling walls of text when I initially scan it.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
With regards to the comments software bug --- the TAB key does in fact get you to the [Comment] button at the bottom.
(SOL if you're on a phone, I guess).

With regards to walls of text --- I think maps and tables also serve as "art" to break up the page.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
With regards to walls of text --- I think maps and tables also serve as "art" to break up the page.
sure. but there's only so much of this you can get away with before I want some actual art art.
 

bryce0lynch

i fucking hate writing ...
Staff member
1) I could show directly to the players, or 2) the art was intended to communicate something to me visually in a way that text has a hard time doing (which is less helpful since I still have to figure out how to convey that to the players using words anyway).
What is the difference between an electrician and an artist? Seriously, I'm asking. I was at an artist warehouse once for a First Friday and there was a person who was doing superhero art. Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, all in their giant blazing colorful glory. Is this art?

The best adventure art helps you run the adventure. At RPGGEEK the cartographer is to be listed under Artists in their new submission guidelines. Similarly, a 3d/isometric piece showing the spatial layout of a location can add immensely to the DMs understanding of the space and their TIME to understand a space. Monster art can be quite useful, to gain a full appreciation of the monster and help communicate it to the DM in a meaningful way ... the best of it helping go solve the "and communicate it to the players" thing." And, as a related issue, room and encounter art can help communicate the vibe, tone, or feeling of a room. I remember specifically the Gates of Barovia or some such from the newer Ravenloft hardback I reviewed. It helped set the tone immediately. It can help set the tone and framing that the DM then reads and accepts the rest of the information in the information, thereby coloring it in that manner and making it all the more effective. Priming the pump, so to speak.

I also sometimes enjoy "real" art pieces. I have a 5e review that will pop in a couple of weeks that has what I consider to be a couple of real art pieces in it. Or, at least, closer to being real than to being superhero art. This is subjective, I know, and one mans Rodin is anothers anime giant swords art. And thus the dangerous ground: most art in adventures fucking sucks. People just buy shit and put it in. I feel like they choose an arits just because, or because they like them, not because the style and tone will fit the adventure. Because they have to have it, or because I like Aya Kato or something like that. In those cases, the vast majority, its just fucking filler. At least its easy to ignore.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
What is the difference between an electrician and an artist? Seriously, I'm asking.
This sounds like the set-up to a joke.

Admittedly art is subjective by nature, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who believes that electricity is art... maybe if arranged in some sort of arcing display, sure, but just wiring houses and servicing power lines is a functional job, not one of creative expression or a communication of the incommunicable.

The best adventure art helps you run the adventure.
I agree, which is why I prefer functional art in my modules - I consider the two instances I've mentioned earlier (art you can show players, and art that shows something not easily put into words) to be a pure expression of that principle; art existing to serve as a tool of communication.

I also sometimes enjoy "real" art pieces.
A fair point, and far be it from me to prescribe that every adventure module must be bland to maximize utility, but at the same time there needs to be analysis to determine the effect and purpose of that adventure art. Perhaps it was included to "set the tone" in the DMs mind so they can better convey the sense of things to the players. Perhaps it was included because it looks cool. We the consumers don't know why, we only know the effect of that art being there and how it impacts us running our game, because we evaluate the art by different metrics (mostly utility). Authors would do well to apply similar evaluations when determining their module art, but instead many just put art in there because it's the norm or because the page might feel bare without any. Layout design is a delicate balancing act of form with function - if art does not conform to the guidelines of good layout principles and impedes utility then it is being employed badly, no matter how pretty it looks.
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
+1 on arts ability to help the DM understand the space.

Art is another tool in the authors tool box to quickly communicate information that can be lost through words.

Also shout outs to Barrowmaze that player art section is goatd
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
As you can imagine, I keep thinking about the purpose of D&D Art as I try my hand at learning how to illustrate. If you want to skip the long junk that follows, the bottom line is: "I don't know what is appropriate art for D&D" and I also don't know "Why bother making it." For the more indulgent, here's are a few little bits I have pieced together:

Perfect Art Is Impossible
Human artists, even ones using digital tools, cannot photo-realistically render a scene. That's why Hollywood uses computers and especially (recently) ray-tracing. That is the only way to really get the global illumination correct. So what every human artist is forced to do is "fake it". If you are really skilled, and really PATIENT, you can do-like-Rembrandt and come *very* close. Often that requires a physical model or photo-reference because the human brain just can't bounce light perfectly without help---and it's wicked slow to create at that level.

But people like @The1True have always wanted art (even before the age of computers), and they want it fast. So, an artist compromises. He or she make something that a "willing viewer" can except as representative. It gets the point across. You can look at it and know what it's "suppose to be". The Dutch Masters were cranking out photo-realistic art in schools...but a whole bunch of lazy "artists" didn't want to put in all that effort. Hell! That was WORK---precisely the thing they became artists to avoid! (kidding) So you see a decision being made with the latter art movements like Impressionism, Cubism, etc. that asks, "Can I...without all those fiddly little details...get my point across?". Since it's just about fooling the eye, I can do it in a general sense---again, if the viewer cooperates.

I keep mentally going back to this post by Stefan Poag on his blog. In it he basically says: "I draw the line---I have no desire to make art at that level of precision!". He (like Jason Sholtis, Erol Otis, or Peter Mullen) chooses a simpler, perhaps more "cartoonish" style---and as a result, many folks do not like the vibe his work brings to a D&D product.

It's also why finishing art pieces can be so tedious such that artists often prefer to "sketch" or do "studies", and segregate them from their commissioned works.

By where to draw the line(s)? That leads us to the next topic---Style.

Different Strokes for Different Folks (a.k.a. Style)
Each and every artist has to decide how much "reality" to include in their effort...and when to put the pencil or brush down and just walk away from it. What they do is attempt to "paper over" the missing stuff with a stylized version of reality. The choices they habitually make, and the limits of their knowledge and skill defines their personal style. Often you get "derivative artists" who are in fact copying other artist's style because they liked the result (this usually ends badly, unless they eventually go back to the "source" at some point in their education).

Another factor in Style also goes beyond the technical. It's that elusive element that makes a work exciting. It's why Franzetta's Conan punches you right in the nose with it's dynamism. It's why we, of the Modern Age, don't just dress up in costumes and take photos of ourselves in the backyard to include in our DIY D&D products. Art can be BETTER than reality. Hollywood knows this, and that's why they cook the lighting for scenes in very non-realistic ways...to look great---and love to give each other awards for pointing a camera. (It's also why Peter Jackson's LotR movies were visually poor despite expensive and plausible F/X.)

OK. Add these two things together: (a) technical: i.e. where to stop trying + (b) aesthetic: an eye for the dramatic (or beautiful), i.e. WHAT to draw.

(a) + (b) = the artist's Style

[yes, I'm an engineer]

But that's only part of the art-stew---the last ingredient is YOU, the audience. You have to "accept" the artist's style...and this is that hardest part because we collectively agree on so little. This is why I keep shoving my proto-art in everyone's face and asking "What do you think?". You have to know your audience's tastes. "Is the illusion I'm trying to pull off WORKING FOR YOU?", (the insecure artists asks everyone who will give him the time-of-day). It's necessary to get that feedback because the artists has no way of knowing what's not working in his or her selectively-handicapped-version-of-light-and-choice-of-content. Producing art and getting no feedback is a sad state of affairs I can tell you---because you are STUCK, with no clue on what to fix (next)---or, crutially, if he or she can simply STOP. As one of the art instructors at proko.com said in an interview---a drawing is only as good as it's worst piece. But knowing what others consider to be a bridge-too-far in your stylized portrayal of reality is something you cannot determine in isolation.

Practically speaking, the real grognards want clean lines...preferably in black & white --- such as was achieved by using real India Ink with a stylus, on paper. Since that ink is PURE black, you can't get any contrast-variation unless you do (careful and laborious) cross-hatching to fake greys. Thus the classic "wood-cut" style, named after the fact that folks like Tenniel (illustrator of Alice in Wonderland) used to carve all those little cross-contour lines for his prints in blocks of wood for the printing presses, and authors like Lewis Carroll had to wait months for him to start because of a backed-up queue. This style is also great for B&W home-printing. (Make a mental note that this is also what comic books emulated with slightly better printing tech when inked traditionally.)

But this is also where style choice can kill you. One of the complaints about 3e and 4e illustrations is that the style choices were a turn off. Part (a), the technique, was sometimes better than those old TSR black and white illustrations (I'll get back to that in a sec)---but remember...they were still a compromise, and a far cry from photo-realistic. Also Part (b), the content/presentation, was very comic-book-ish and full of artificially posed characters in a very derivative, amateur layout. A segment of the old-school audience rejected it (I don't like it by-and-large either).

There is an Uncanny Valley for Style that, despite all it's digital gloss can "ruin the vibe" for it's audience by evoking emotions that don't belong in their D&D. Those "emotional triggers" in the viewer will get labeled as "too cartoonish", "too Anime", "too comic-book", "too woke", whatever. It's very difficult to predict and find agreement. Hence the quip, "I know good art when I see it."

Similarly, a specific style (choice) may not fit the atmosphere of the product. Some obvious examples:
  • Cartoonish plays badly against Horror.
  • Super-Hero plays badly against Gritty.
  • Macabre plays badly against Gonzo.
  • etc.
Inconsistent style in a product (e.g. multiple artists) can also cause dissonance. For me, a few of Darlene's drawings in the 1e DMG come to mind.

(continued below)
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
“And what is good, Phaedrus...?"
Knowledge of the fundamentals of light-transport and skill/patience with a pencil or ink-well are the marks of a "good" artists. I will argue, that if you look at the details, and compare classic D&D artists David Sutherland and Trampier, you will quickly come to the conclusion that Trampier is the "better artist".

"Wait! Didn't you just finish saying it's all subjective?".

Well...Yes, and No.

What Trampier did is "harder" than what Sutherland did to my eye---which is why, in all likelihood DCS has more entries in the 1e Monster Manual that DAT**. To me, that makes him "better"---even if you may like Sutherland's style more (which I actually did, when I was a wee lad). Trampier understands light and executes that understanding (in his ink-medium) with masterful technique.

If you look closely at Peter Mullen's work too, you'll start to notice clues that makes the fact that he's an art teacher at Penn State evident, too.

Here a few criteria I use in judging art:
  • Amateur/poor artists get the technique (lighting and/or anatomy) wrong.
  • Mediocre artists make boring layout decisions.
  • The more cartoonish the art, the easier it is to produce---effort counts for something (but not everything..look at the Peanuts comic strip).
Despite all the colors and light-trickery available in a digital-medium---I'll argue the many of 3e/4e/5e artists (sans Kopinksi or Kormarck) are actually WORSE artists than either Trampier or Mullen solely on technical merits (in addition to using dull/representative/cartoon-y layout).

This is also why I warn against including NPC head-shots:
  1. They are technically easy, because there are cartoon-ish and also lack compositional elements (e.g. backgrounds, dynamism, layout, etc.)
  2. We are ultra-wired to react to human faces...so they are the single most likely candidate to provoke an emotional response.
Ergo, they are both the lowest form of art, AND an third-rail to be avoided because no-way are they going to please everyone, and the ones they offend will be extremely turned-off. Bad call WotC---very Magic: The Gathering of you!

-----

Well, here ends the Sound and Fury of an art-post that has been brewing in my brain for quite some time.
I hope it speaks to Bryce's question is some meaningful way.

**Incidentally, not being appreciated for all his hard work and effort maybe be why Trampier gave it all up to drive a taxi. (Or drugs...probably drugs.)
 
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DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
The thing being overlooked, IMO, is audience. With the exception of pieces meant to show directly to the players (as a tool), module art has a very specific audience - the lone Dungeon Master. But the middle of a technical document meant to guide a DM through an adventure for their players in an almost script-like manner is not the place to be saying "hey DM, isn't this a pretty picture?". It impedes. The DM has to work around the art, not with it.

Art on its own is harmless. Art thrown into modules in a ham-fisted way janks up the layout, turning art from "harmless" into "inconvenient". That cannot be abided in a product whose purpose is to facilitate. So we need to evaluate: can the DM use this specific piece art in any way, be it to show, to learn, or to establish something? If not, then is that art at least kept out of the way so as not to impede the actual usefulness of the module?
 

Palindromedary

*eyeroll*
I tend to think of art in layout terms, from working on my homebrew and helping others with layout. You have a small blank space at the end of the page, and you could start a new section there but then you have a page flip to continue it. Better to put an illustration in the blank space and start the new section on the next page: keeping relevant bits on facing pages really helps comprehension and quick referencing. The larger overall effect is also that your text has more room to breathe, instead of a 1st-ed DMG-like effect where you're drowning in text. But what's there isn't as important as the fact that there is something there. As long as it's not counterintuitive/incongruous (i.e. tonally inconsistent), you're fine: no bit of art is going to please everyone. Of course, that's mostly from a rules manual perspective, but some of it applies to modules as well.

For adventures, I'll echo the compliments on the Barrowmaze art book: being able to just show the players something complex instead of describing it all and hoping they take in the vital details is great, and that the art is such high quality is the cherry on top.
 
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The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Also shout outs to Barrowmaze that player art section is goatd
Fuck Yeah!

Monsters are definitely the most important. Introducing a New Monster in your published adventure and not including a picture is serious boo. I'll make an exception for variations on an established theme (It's a human but it has glowy eyes and a pointy helmet. It's a goblin but his head's disproportionately large etc.) But if you're straining to describe this thing in your one paragraph description then imagine what I'm picturing at the other end.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Admittedly art is subjective by nature, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who believes that electricity is art... maybe if arranged in some sort of arcing display, sure, but just wiring houses and servicing power lines is a functional job, not one of creative expression or a communication of the incommunicable.
Well, images can skew toward purely illustrative or more evocative, with purely illustrative images (like the illustrations booklets in S1 and S3, for example) potentially being adequately produced with technical proficiency, and more evocative images requiring more creativity and being more emotively expressive. I would say being able to produce images that are technically proficient but not particularly evocative could be analogous to plumbing. Also, don't knock construction in general, there can be real beauty in good workmanship, and understanding how wood or water behaves is not all math and science (well, not affordable math and science that is available in the time allotted to patch a faulty system).

In larger works art can be helpful to orient the reader. I know back in the day I could locate many portions of the DMG by virtue of their positions in relation to the various cartoons and illustrations. But I don't generally use modules that are all that long.

The thing being overlooked, IMO, is audience. With the exception of pieces meant to show directly to the players (as a tool), module art has a very specific audience - the lone Dungeon Master. But the middle of a technical document meant to guide a DM through an adventure for their players in an almost script-like manner is not the place to be saying "hey DM, isn't this a pretty picture?". It impedes. The DM has to work around the art, not with it.

Art on its own is harmless. Art thrown into modules in a ham-fisted way janks up the layout, turning art from "harmless" into "inconvenient". That cannot be abided in a product whose purpose is to facilitate. So we need to evaluate: can the DM use this specific piece art in any way, be it to show, to learn, or to establish something? If not, then is that art at least kept out of the way so as not to impede the actual usefulness of the module?
I agree with this. Outside of orienting the reading, I think player facing art should clearly convey information, whereas DM facing art can either evoke a mood or convey information (but has to do one of those things).
 
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