Criteria: Evocative-Terse continuum vs. Rorschach for the referee

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Yes, that fits into my argument (which didn't address terse/evocative at all). You've already happily settled into a niche the rest of the hobby declined to settle in (4E). Same with Tetramorph settling into OD&D. There are others who prefer the same as you both do (which is why I say there is a niche to be filled here). But the equilibrium of the hobby is never going to settle into what the both of you (differently/specifically) prefer, rules-wise. Just as it will never settle into my own preferences.

Put another way

"I think the hobby should be like X": prepare for a lifetime of disappointment

"I'd like to be part of a small cadre of people going against the grain, and I think there's an audience of 200-500 people who agree with me and would buy that": now you're into the realm of the possible.
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
I generally try to use evocative prose (in my notes, I don't write adventures for publication mostly) as a flourish to indicate the most salient elements of an area or situation. If I'm going to draw the PCs' attention to a thing, I try to do it only to things that I might want their attention to linger on. It's a simple rule and there are probably some missed opportunities along the way, but the consistency seems to be very helpful to them.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Yes, that fits into my argument (which didn't address terse/evocative at all). You've already happily settled into a niche the rest of the hobby declined to settle in (4E). Same with Tetramorph settling into OD&D. There are others who prefer the same as you both do (which is why I say there is a niche to be filled here). But the equilibrium of the hobby is never going to settle into what the both of you (differently/specifically) prefer, rules-wise. Just as it will never settle into my own preferences.

Put another way

"I think the hobby should be like X": prepare for a lifetime of disappointment

"I'd like to be part of a small cadre of people going against the grain, and I think there's an audience of 200-500 people who agree with me and would buy that": now you're into the realm of the possible.
More an Eberron thing than a 4e thing, actually, but I generally don't expect anyone to write anything that really suits me. Its probably why I keep going back to TSR modules; it's easy to add flavour to vanilla (and I don't mean that in a pejorative way).
 

tetramorph

A FreshHell to Contend With
Squeen, you have given me a lot to think about. I was hoping someone could show me how from there perspective they do not see terse and evocative as contrary to one another and although I may not see things entirely the way you do you have been helpful and you've got me thinking in new ways.

You say, however, that evocative language is supposed to "jab something" into the referee's brain. I can get the utility of that at one level, but at another I still would rather inspire than jab ideas. Still, I do like your point about evoking shared tropes that then inspire referee creativity. Thanks for linking that to my Rorschach analogy. That really helps.

Your example is helpful. I have seen modules with write-ups like your first, bad example, and I certainly agree that those are awful and unhelpful at the table. I like Beoric's alternative even better. I think I would go for even more terse than your alternative, and that is where someone like Bryce would "zing" me for failing to be "evocative." I am all about bullet points and leave it at that.

Other examples would help me, if anyone would like to offer them!

And, sorry, I am a noob here so please be patient with me. I am only familiar with Bryce's bullet-pointed list. What are his "four pillars"?

Thanks for the link, The1True. I will check it out and report back after I have had some time perusing it.

OSRNoob, nice haiku. Here you go:

After formatting
Regardless of brilliant prose
Help me play the game

EOTB: good to see you here! Thanks for responding on this thread. Yes, 200-500 people interested in my work would pretty much feel like rock star status in my commitment to a niche of a niche of a nerd hobby. So I think I am in the realm of possibility!

BTW: is there a way for me to "tag" usernames when I post?

Thanks all. Great conversation so far.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
BTW: is there a way for me to "tag" usernames when I post?
Yes, with the "@". Start typing and a list of names pops up.

I don't think Bryce will necessarily be unhappy with brief. Melan's Castle X was VERY brief and Bryce thought is was a 10/10 perfection. To quote, "He makes it look so easy". If EOTB is right about your intent (and he usually is), then a skeletal OD&D framework for a DM to riff off of may tickle Bryce's fancy. Just organize it to the best of your ability and be mindful of the end-user experience.

I enjoy Melan's uber-brief style, but general like a bit more in my write-up.

@to-one-in-particular: I write up all my house-stuff in psuedo-publication form (lots of holes, but word-processed in LaTeX, with maps, figures and layout)...just because I like too and someday I may give it to my kids as a print-book.

The "Descriptive and Detailed" example is not necessarily "wrongbad", and in some ways has more specifics in it than "Evocative & Terse". And I think there are times you may want those details, such as when you DM-improv and creativity fails you. I think some folks actual sometimes like more wordiness (such as with me vs. Melan).

That said, when I went to run my own materials years after I wrote it in the "Descriptive & Detailed" manner (which is how I alway start before an editing pass to reduce it), I COULDN"T FIND THE NEEDLES IN THE HAYSTACK I HAD SOWN! Yes, I was lost and confused in my own work. That's when I became a True Believer. I thought all my wonderful prose was the exception only to have multiple at-the-table-failures.

Darn you Bryce! You were right! ;)
 
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tetramorph

A FreshHell to Contend With
@EOTB I missed your longer post! I've now read it.

I love the musical analogy. You are spot on. When I play the piano, I prefer a lead sheet to sheet music. A good D&D session/campaign should be like a jazz performance. Improv within a recognizable frame.

Within that musical analogy, like @Beoric put it, I prefer to do my own arranging. So I always want to share what I wish folks would share with me!

Guy's "The Withered Crag" is probably one of the best modules ever. From my POV, I do not exaggerate. (Even there, there is a bit more background than I need. I had to rework stuff to fit it into my campaign!) Nevertheless, I now have someone to imitate!

(Original edition forever, dude ;) )
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
So good @Beoric. I am in 100% agreement with the exception of boxed-text-to-bullets as the default list replacement. I think paragraph-breaks (or commas) can do it just as well and leading with them in every key would be inviting more bullet-abuse. They are like opium: they have a medicinal use, but one must be disciplined!
Yes yes, I've taken your advice and got it down to one (small) indent now. No more point form. You should really take a look at my updated PDF's some time and let me know what you think!
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
For me, a balance must be met when trying to be terse and evocative. There is some stuff out there that people absolutely love, but I find completely dry and blocks my creativity when reading/preparing to run it because it's too terse. Sometimes there is too much evocativeness....as in, well, 'I guess Ill spend the time to look up this word in the dictionary because I have no clue what it means' sorta evocativeness.

There is also the 'history' component (not sure if history is the right word in this context) that Bryce doesn't like, and when used too much I can agree with him as it may not come up during play, but sometimes having a little history with an item or room helps me make the overall adventure flow better. Or maybe it's the story wrapped into the writing that I can grip on or relate too. Being terse and evocative can sometimes feel like I just hit a wall (i.e. dry), whereas a little history/story/background? can help explain the designer's vision and help me feel more welcomed (?) to run the adventure as I'm not scratching my head trying to figure out what approach the designer was going for. Not sure I'm explaining it too well. I am not talking about a huge several page storyline or background in the beginning, but maybe a few short hints why something is the way it is. Like maybe a secret exit out of a dungeon that only one specific NPC or monster knows about--lets say Harry knows about it. It probably won't come up in play--PCs would just find the secret door. However, that little touch of background helps me as a DM because if Harry is confronted, then tries to flee, then I know Harry may try to head over to the secret exit rather than somewhere else. I think sometimes adventures can be too terse and don't include things like that.

I liked Huso's Geir Loe Cyn-crul. I think it did ok in Bryce's review and it does have a lot of hack n slash, but to me, when reading it, I was able to picture what my characters would be doing in the presented situations, which helps me run it as a DM. I don't get that visual from some other stuff I read (i.e. I call it dry) which makes me not want to run it. I think everyone's brain is wired different.

I'm a fan of bullets. I like them because it follows the K.I.S.S principle--Keep It Simple Stupid. Bullets are a tool to help organize your original paragraph--which as others have said is not meant for the PCs but to inspire the DM about the description of the room. Bolding words in the original paragraph, then bolding the same word in the bullet point makes it easier to check out and keeps things organized. Granted, bullets may not be needed in that case and you could start off a new line with the bolded word, but I think bullets with the indent breaks it off from the original paragraph so you dont have a text wall and makes it look sharp. The challenge that I have, is trying to keep those bullets short because if they get too long, then the idea behind them has failed. Tables are better when there is a lot more info to convey. Flow charts work good for expressing timetables or if there are a bunch of different story plots/agendas by factions--I've only used it once so far in Vermilion because there is a lot going on.

While I don't believe in giving everyone trophies, you need to have fun with what you are doing. You can pick things apart for years and trying to perfect everything--but will it ever see the light of day? Is anything truly perfect? Put forth your best effort, stand behind what you are publishing--make sure you are proud of it, then be humble, open-minded and learn from your peers/reviewers--it will only make you better for your future projects. But in order to hit that learning stage, you need to get it out there for others--battling it out in your own head forever slows down the learning process. There is multiple ways to present an adventure that is good and easy to run at the table--pick a technique or way you like and try to make it the best. I like bullets, but it's definitely not the #1 method out there--to each their own.
 

tetramorph

A FreshHell to Contend With
Two things: 1. what are Bryce's "four pillars"? Links to threads that discuss these?
2. Are there already threads where examples of formatting are given and discussed?
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
What @Beoric said. Any of the 'Feedback' threads are good:




Hell, start your own! Everyone here has a fucking opinion, lol! :ROFLMAO:
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I note I didn't answer the first question. I can't remember where Bryce's Four Pillars are, does anybody here know?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I will try to find a few threads to link tomorrow---including the rough-draft of Bryce's book, which will cover the four pillars.
 

Johann

*eyeroll*
I think OD&D's natural cycle is to be elevated when more current fully fleshed out versions of D&D are rejected to a degree that stripping the house back to its foundations for a rebuild is generally desired.
Fantastic post, every last word.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Good one Avi. I did also find this:

Bryce said:
For awhile I’ve had four pillars of judgment. Ease of Use at the Table, Evocative Writing, Interactivity, and the elusive Supreme-Court-Porn of ‘Design.’ I’ve toyed with the ideas that there is this kind of sliding spectrum of each and at some level they produce something that is worth your time to use. I think, now, though that I’m thinking of it wrong. The overwhelming feedback from most folks, when you talk about adventures, is how they don’t use them because they are hard to use. And they’re right. This points to the Ease of Use pillar. I suspect that there’s actually this hurdle in Ease of Use. The number one priority is to make it easy to use. Because if you don’t then no fucking person is going to use the fucking thing. It doesn’t have to be perfect in this regard, but you have to get over some hurdle. Just make it not torturous to use. Then if you can hit the bare minimum in terms of evocative writing and interactivity then you get a Recommendation. Maybe not even that, maybe you don’t even have to make it an interesting adventure with the writing or interactivity. Just make the fucking thing not a chore so it can actualy be used to play the game. That makes you a Journeyman. Anything at all in the other areas makes you a Master. There’s, how’s that for the setting the baf impossible fucking low and still seeing 90% of the designers not be able to meet it? (These rules only apply to MOSTLY everyone. Jabberwocky’s Wake still gets a pass from me.) Yeah, it’s really taken me ten years to come up with that. Go figure.
Which in summary is:
  1. Ease of Use at the Table
  2. Evocative Writing
  3. Interactivity
  4. Design

But it's not what I remember. I wonder if the book chapter (rough draft) was taken down.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I feel like Design is an element of Ease of Use, or maybe one and the same thing?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Not in the way he intends it. Something can be easy-to-use but also disjointed and boring.

Design is holistic.
 
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