General Discussion

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Hey, who around here uses VTTs a lot? I'm curious about comparing features. I've been using MapTool for a long time, but it's very DYI, and I'm wondering it the current version of other products have the features I want.
I was a player in a 5e FantasyGrounds campaign (one of the rare few times I've not DMed). Lot's of nifty shit there, but I wasn't privy to all the stuff behind the DM screen. Also used Roll20 for a bit when the pandemic broke out... but even then, only the free version.

Cool. But still, all of those bits of greeble are basically nothing. The more you zoom in, the more nothing they become. This might actually help in a way since I do have players who insist on interacting with the background even when it is very obviously something I snatched off a last minute Google Image search for a random encounter...
Your players should probably suspend disbelief for a second and understand that, no, you don't map things to the accuracy of absolute reality. Sometimes maps are more impressionist than photorealist. "It's all just rusty, festering trash" is all I'd hope it would take to becalm their map-frazzled minds.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I have no choice but to play exclusively on a VTT. My group is stuck on Roll20. No one wants to learn a new interface. I think there's a lot better out there at this point.
The one thing I would add is, I hate hybridizing with Discord. If I have to have a little Discord window open over on the side, taking up valuable screen realestate, or on my phone so I can have video or chat features, that's a deal breaker.
MapTools is volunteer created and managed, and you have to program your own tokens, create your own libraries, etc. So it has a lot of flexibility, if you have the skills to do those things. Fortunately there are a lot of community members who publish shortcuts, as well as frameworks which have most of the options relevant to a particular game system. Which is good, since the last time I had any formal training in coding was a semester of Pascal in the mid-late 80s.

So the framework I use for my 4e game has a bunch of utilities. There is, for instance, a utility that allowed you to import data from (IIRC) the on-line compendium, complete with stats, powers/options, skills, etc. Nearly the whole character sheet of information. I find for monster tokens it has about 70% accuracy. As a result of this, I have more than 5000 monster tokens that are basically done, but for testing and tweaking any errors.

The tokens created with this utility have a number of macros associated with them, which appear in a window as buttons when you click a token. There are also wondows for GM marcors and global macros. So say a combat starts. I select all the tokens that are going to be in the fight, mor maybe in batches if one group has situational modifiers. I push an "add to initiative button" and a window comes up asking if I have any modifiers for the group. I add a modifier or click past that window, and the framework rolls initiative for each creature, adds the creature's intiative bonus, adds any situational bonus you entered in the window, applies the 4e rules for initiative order, and displays a list of creatures in initiative order.

So if I have a PC in that fight, when my turn comes up I attack by clicking the button for whatever power I am using. A window pops up asking who I am attacking, and I select those tokens. I enter any situational modifiers or conditions, click enter, and the framework rolls for my attack, applies ability modifiers, etc., and compares that to the monster's AC; if it is a hit, the framework rolls damage, incorporates any vulnerabilities (say, fire damage to a troll), deducts that from the monster's hit points, changes the monster's hit point bar. If the monster is dead, it changes the monster's image to a skull and moves the token to a different layer so it doesn't accidentally get clicked as the combat continues. If the monster is not dead, it applies any conditions from the attack (say, being knocked prone, or ongoing bleeding), which conditions will be tracked and applied or removed automatically as the combat continues. There are also buttons for ability checks and skill checks if you need to make those.

I can define the way creatures can see. For instance, a creature with normal vision can only see if there is a light source present. A creature with low-light vision can only see if there is a light source present, but the radius the light source illuminates is doubled (I borrowed a 3e rule for this). Things like darkvision and blindsight need no light source to see. I can also define different light sources, which can be carried by tokens or affixed to wall-mounted lamps or whatever. In addition, I can define areas of unnatural darkness, which can override light sources, or parts of light sources, and even types of light like darkvision. So for instance i could have an area where all light sources automatically drop to half their radius.

There is a vision blocking layer for defining lines of light, but there is also a movement blocking layer, and they can be applied individually. So there could be an invisible wall (you can see through it but not move your token through it) or a curtain (you can walk through it but can't see through it. In addition, there is a special vision blocking layer for elevations (you can see them from a distance) or depressions (you can see into the pit, but only if you are right next to it.

In addition to the stationary vision blocking layer, you can add vision blocking or movement blocking to a token or object. So I can make a "door" object which blocks sight and movement, and if I rotate the door to open it, the VBL/MBL moves with the object, allowing tokens to see and walk thought the doorway. Or I could have a curtain object that blocks sight but not movement. I can also make a "difficult terrain" object that requires tokens to expend more movement points when it is crossed.

I can make macros to change a token's image or size. For example, I could have a doppelganger where I click a button, and it looks like a halfling and shrinks to the size of a halfling.

In addition to the basic framework, I have incorporated some other tools that have been created by community members. For instance, there is a tool that lets you assign gear to a token, calculates encumbrance, and tells you if the creature is encumbered. And a calendar tool that lets you create your own calendar and tracks time both on a macro scale for overland travel/downtime, and on a micro scale for dungeon exploration. And it keeps track of dates for holy days, festivals, etc. There are also a bunch of tools that are availabel that I don't use - like teleporters, or switches so that players can open doors if their character is next to one (that one also allows you to just crack the door open, or look through a keyhole).

I can also assign information to objects, so a player can click on a door for a description of it (in case they weren't paying attention during the description). Plus I can add DM text to an object that only I can see, like how difficult it is to force this door or pick the lock. I usually copy paste the key for a room directly into the room's number, so I don't have to go looking for it.

All of which requires a certain amount of work, although the ability to create new macros or customize someone else's macros is nice. So how do these tools compare to the built-in features of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Cool. But still, all of those bits of greeble are basically nothing. The more you zoom in, the more nothing they become. This might actually help in a way since I do have players who insist on interacting with the background even when it is very obviously something I snatched off a last minute Google Image search for a random encounter...
Yeah, this is what has made me transition back to much simpler, less "realisic" maps for the most part.

Your players should probably suspend disbelief for a second and understand that, no, you don't map things to the accuracy of absolute reality. Sometimes maps are more impressionist than photorealist. "It's all just rusty, festering trash" is all I'd hope it would take to becalm their map-frazzled minds.
Players should do a lot of things they don't do.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
So how do these tools compare to the built-in features of Roll20
It sounds a lot like the paid version of Roll20. The really expensive developer tier version where you can muck around with macros. Although admittedly a lot of that stuff you just mentioned comes built into the slightly more affordable 2nd tier. I'm not going to defend it. Roll20 is pig-easy to learn and use, and it's free, and I like the built-in video chat even if it is buggy as hell. Compared to what's available out there though, there are a lot of better options.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
All of which requires a certain amount of work, although the ability to create new macros or customize someone else's macros is nice. So how do these tools compare to the built-in features of Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds?
I can't speak as an authority to either system. As I say, I never accessed the "guts'" of Fantasy Grounds (though my DM often gave us moments of "hang on a sec, let me program something real quick into FG..."), but it seemed quite robust on the receiving end. And I am only familiar with the free version of Roll20, which was obviously bare-bones for a reason.

In all good sense though, if you only want a feature comparison, why not just visit the official website(s)?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
In all good sense though, if you only want a feature comparison, why not just visit the official website(s)?
I haven't for a few years, but the problem then was the marketing was pretty non-specific in its claims, and there was really no way to assess what they were actually doing without getting the product and spending a bunch of time trying to do things. And my general experience with buying digital products is they end up with limitations I didn't expect, and turn out to be not useable for my intended purpose. I have purchased many digital tools over the years, and yet the four I always end up using are all freeware (although I did purchase the upgrade for Worldographer).

Although I'm thinking of giving Dungeondraft a go, since it is dirt cheap, and it seems like it will be an easy way to make buildings, which I don't have a great tool for.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
the problem then was the marketing was pretty non-specific in its claims,
Yeah. There's a lot of whizz bang shit going on on the home page of most of these apps and I usually end up wondering exactly how much time the DM is going to end up burning implementing this neato stuff. You're probably sitting pretty if you're happy to drop premaid maps into your game, but the second you want to use your own stuff, you're into the weeds dicking around with art or 3d software, or Unreal Engine, or laying down visibility lines in irregularly shaped caverns with tons of stalactites etc...
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Question for you @Beoric : why not just stay with the system you're already familiar/comfortable with? I doubt you're going to find any improvements so amazing that they justify all the time and effort of switching platforms...

(Fun fact: this is the narrative I tell myself when I walk by a shelf of 5.5 books)
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Question for you @Beoric : why not just stay with the system you're already familiar/comfortable with? I doubt you're going to find any improvements so amazing that they justify all the time and effort of switching platforms...
If something was clearly better, or the same but with less work involved, I would consider switching. If those other platforms have a steep learning curve, it wouldn't be worth it.

And in MapTools, integrating community built add-ons can be a certain amount of work. For instance, when I started using the inventory system it had some problems because the inventory system built by somebody in the community used some variables that the D&D framework built by a different person was using for a different purpose. It took me a while to chase down the problem, then figure out which application was going to be easiest to change, because like I said I'm not good at this.

(Also, why anyone building an add-on inventory system for RPGs would use "Class" as a variable for classes of items, when there is a really high chance the same variable would be used for character classes is beyond me. All of the tokens would have their character class changed to "goods", it was really annoying.)

It is also a factor for my players, who aren't very tech savvy; when we have connection problems, knowing whether it is on my end or their end is difficult, because they don't have a clue what they are doing.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It is also a factor for my players, who aren't very tech savvy; when we have connection problems, knowing whether it is on my end or their end is difficult, because they don't have a clue what they are doing.
I may not know much about the workings of the systems, but Roll20 and Fantasy Realms are both pretty dang user-friendly (for the players).
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I may not know much about the workings of the systems, but Roll20 and Fantasy Realms are both pretty dang user-friendly (for the players).
I mean, the player just needs to click "connect to server", choose my game from the list, enter the password and press "ok", so
🤷‍♂️? And then read to me any error message before clicking through (they always garble the message and/or click through), or preferably send me a screenshot (which none of them can do). This assumes they are using the correct version of the program, which always requires a lengthy discussion to get them to figure out how, and then direct them to github for the new version, then figure out where on their computer they downloaded the file to.

Which is why I pretty much always play in person, where I can set up their computers for them. Unfortunately, this doesn't help resolve the online issues, because if they are local they don't go through the firewall, so I can't test the setup.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah. Dude. That sounds fucking crazy, man, sorry. You're going to lose your whole party of noobs if you're dropping both 4e and a bumpy VTT experience on them at the same time! 😝 The worst you're going to get out of Roll20 is choppy video chat, which just involves hitting the refresh button until you win.
Once again though, the free version of Roll20 can't touch all the awesome sounding bells and whistles you've got going on, and that's the UI you're used to. But yeah, no one wants to do tech fixes as part of their gaming experience. It's why I quit PC gaming a hundred years ago (fuck YOU Half Life 2, Orange Box!)! I guess maybe if you're up front about the potential difficulties and run a virtual Session 0 aimed solely at ironing out technical issues?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah. Dude. That sounds fucking crazy, man, sorry. You're going to lose your whole party of noobs if you're dropping both 4e and a bumpy VTT experience on them at the same time! 😝 The worst you're going to get out of Roll20 is choppy video chat, which just involves hitting the refresh button until you win.
Once again though, the free version of Roll20 can't touch all the awesome sounding bells and whistles you've got going on, and that's the UI you're used to. But yeah, no one wants to do tech fixes as part of their gaming experience. It's why I quit PC gaming a hundred years ago (fuck YOU Half Life 2, Orange Box!)! I guess maybe if you're up front about the potential difficulties and run a virtual Session 0 aimed solely at ironing out technical issues?
The noobs are all local, it will be in person. I was talking about my old players.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
You should return. The days of editing config files and manual port-forwarding are dead; long live plug-and-play technology!
Meh. Now I've got no time for vidya games. Other than a lot of drunk/stoned MarioKart 8, the last thing I seriously played was Tears of the Kingdom, and that's because the wife took the kids to Germany for a couple of weeks!
Yeah, as I recall, I got a top of the line video card which I had configured for digital art and 3D modeling, and getting it to cooperate with new games was a complete nightmare. I'd rather just put up with my XBone's ninja 16G updates.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
What even is this conversation? Should... should I just add random sentences to it?

"Flagrant misuse of a waterslide, I'd say. The dogs are naturally antsy about the fireworks outlet. A fine time was had by most."
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Turtle WoW
I recently restarted my WoW subscriptions and I am feeling very meh about the whole game. Part of it is the annoying changes to the GUI that makes hard to read ("Old man yells at clouds") but the bigger part of it is that it has all been done before. Get to the Earthen city. Yay. Go to neighboring town and do stupid fetch quests. Yay <snooze>. I left during Shadowlands. I think they should've ended it there. But money and all that.


The Heretic
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
the bigger part of it is that it has all been done before.
Uh yeah, that's grind-based MMOs for you. Literally the same thing over and over. I was into a couple over the years, but see them for what they are these days: flashing lights, crazy noises, hollow XP. Basically the same approach to every slot machine, CandyCrush-clone, and toddler's toy ever made.
 
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