Hex Crawls

[The1True]

Hexes allow for simplicity, ease of use and crucially, a low cognitive load on the DM.
They don't interfere at all with the players' sense of seamless exploration and travel.
There is no "mini-game."

That looks super fun!
So your players are operating off a Hex Map as well as you?
It seems to me to at least some degree this is a gameable travel system and thus somewhat a 'minigame' or game within the game, no? So we're clear, I don't think this is a bad thing since it puts power in the players' hands to make informed choices.
But yeah, this really sums things up nicely!

 

[squeen]

First and foremost, thank TS for taking the time to spell that all out. It's nice an seemly and feels like it has a great immersive flow to it.

Common sense must be applied here (you have that, right?).

Err...no.

I still think that a telescoping effect is evident in your example (and EOTBs) that I don't really love. Let me just loosely enumerate them:

• chance of spotting something --- unless the fact that it's hidden is important, this seem unnecessarily simulation-ist and not a ton of fun
• every hex has a (random) chance of having something in it --- too dense. Does every 10x10' square in a dungeon have a chance?
• bullet blurbs of hex contents --- what makes something interesting (to me) is all the unexpected details that exists to be discovered (like layers of an onion)...and what makes it valuable is that there's something awesome "out there" that you have a real chance of walking past. This is not the case if it "floats" in a table (i.e. if you random-walk around enough you'll discover everything). I understand you CAN fully key a location, but most folks aren't doing that because of the enormous effort. This is of course tied to the notion (above) that every hex can have something interesting in it.

So what's the alternative?

The wilderness has a hex-map on it for distance, but it's not hex-ified. There is nothing special about moving from one hex to another. The contents on the map are predetermined with the exception of a table of random encounters (like in a dungeon, but possibly with the addition of some more elaborate "random locations" that are allowed to float until instantiated by party observation). Things are spaced out more and traveling through un-keyed wildness is hand-waived in the way one travels down a 10' wide corridor for 100-feet. Days of travel are the major unit of time, and they eat up resources. Roads, rivers, etc. are generally adhered-to because they are "safer" (usually) and faster (usually). Most points-of-interest naturally fall along by-ways because that's why roads are built, and outposts are along rivers because of their massive utility too.

Finding lost things is difficult and (usually) requires a guide, magic, or a lot of time searching near-by. In general, the lightly-keyed "naked" sites are pre-determined (sometimes years ago) but just in limbo because the DM hasn't gotten to them yet...and no one is going that direction (i.e. chance of exploration is low). But knowing them in advance gives you TONS of down-time to ponder them and sketch them out slowly in your mind...waiting for real inspiration to strike. Having fewer concrete ones (as oppose to dozens and dozens in a table) provides focus. In term of dynamism, the world "moves" between games and old sites that the players have visited (or not) get modified. Places and structures develop a history, and the "high ground" is valued and fought over.

Can everything I just said can be made to work on the hex-crawl map (and system) you describe above? Almost certainly! But to my calcified mind, I question if the hex-procedure is actually adding anything that's fun for DM or players? All it looks like to me is an algorithm for the DM that adds the illusion of detail without too much effort. What my mind balks at is that the detail seems (to me) to be just swirling mists of random chance. A parlor trick that offends my sensibilities of real substance in the invented world. Clearly, I'm out on a limb this, so as much as I appreciate your effort to show me how you've made it work (very well, thank you!)...I think my tastes just run differently. Note: I'm not claiming any "classic" play-style heritage here---just a preference. It just happens to be how my long-ago insomniac DM prepped. He had filing cabinets of cool stuff. We ached to discover it (...but barely scratched the surface in a decade of play)! There's a powerful romance to that just plain appeals to me.

If this helps explain anything about my mindset: As cool as the on-line game (based on the 1e DMG random tables) was --- Dungeon Robber felt hollow to me too. I was bored within minutes. Similarly, if I could sense that my DM was improvising all/most the content on-the-fly...it would be the same buzz-kill. The world-as-a-puzzle would vanish in a puff of logic.

 

[squeen]

@The1True : Planescape is Ren Fair for the super-exotic. While that can work, and is fun to flesh out, it generally has a shorter shelf-life...because where do you go from there? After the novelty wears off, you are back to a ho-hum existence without an outlet. Think about it in terms of a fantasy or sci-fi book: the first one that describes the unique setting is very innovative and cool...but the next 7 in the series seem like rehashed garbage. The virgin thrill fades fast. Gimmicky.

 

[The1True]

@The1True : Planescape is Ren Fair for the super-exotic. While that can work, and is fun to flesh out, it generally has a shorter shelf-life...because where do you go from there? After the novelty wears off, you are back to a ho-hum existence without an outlet. Think about it in terms of a fantasy or sci-fi book: the first one that describes the unique setting is very innovative and cool...but the next 7 in the series seem like rehashed garbage. The virgin thrill fades fast. Gimmicky.

We've gone 1-20 twice and 1-30 once with Planescape. There are literally infinite planes of reality to explore. There are numerous arguments against Planescape I'm willing to accept, including that it just does not appeal to the majority taste in elfgaming, but unless the DM is truly hopeless, it is completely impossible for the novelty to ware off in this setting. In fact, a solid argument against might be the non-stop barrage of novelty.

Spelljammer on the other hand wares off FAST. It's good for a mid-level story-arc but utter crap for a campaign.

Anyway, I hope I have made it quite clear that I understand and accept that Planescape hit a flat note with most D&D players. It's pretty Robert Lynn Asprin-style dork-fantasy and transparently marketed to (at the time) a just coming up, Gen X/Y crowd. I'll mock-protest when it gets slandered, but I'm not seriously here to change minds on this topic and conversely no one's going to sour me on the setting either

 

[The1True]

If this helps explain anything about my mindset:

I'm sorry man, I keep coming back to this map. I guess I just really love hexes. But don't you want to just clear each and every one of those? There's very obviously something waiting to be discovered in every hex. That's not keying every 10' of the dungeon. Just look at a rural map in of your area. There's stuff packed into every Mile, much less every 3/6/12 miles.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

That looks super fun!
So your players are operating off a Hex Map as well as you?

Not at all, that's my point. It's all done through narration.

Can everything I just said can be made to work on the hex-crawl map (and system) you describe above?

You are objecting to things I'm not doing, and then go on to tell me that the way to run the wilderness without hexes... is to do the things that I am doing!
I don't build the world out of the swirling mists of random chance.
I don't key adventure locations with a quick one-paragraph blurb. Believe me, I'd have a lot more free time if I did.
I do place locations on the map years in advance, according to my tastes - hexes don't have a random chance to be filled, I try to put something in every single hex.
I do spend time thinking about the world and its history and keep the world moving even when the players aren't looking.
I don't fucking improvise!
I am a high-prep DM to the point that I often miss sessions because it takes me so fucking long to write things up. As I cast my eyes over my stack of gaming notebooks and the pages of notes & spreadsheets I have on Google Drive, I can only laugh at being accused of minimally keying my campaign world.
What mental leap must you make to think that using a hexmap would change any of the above? We're still playing D&D. You might as well have said "I don't use hexes - instead, I'm a good DM" like the two statements are related.

Melan's example post that started this off - well, of course he had to keep things minimal. He created the beginning of a small campaign setting just for an example in a blog post! The Wilderlands, which is his inspiration, may be minimally keyed on a per-hex basis, but as it happens it's a much more gameable method of delivering information to the DM than the 2e Forgotten Realms boxed set I got for Christmas in 1994. You already know this. The fact that the DM still has to expand on the one-paragraph hex entries is no indictment at all.

If you don't like every hex having something in it - well, okay I guess. It is possible to pick the SIZE of hexes to adjust this, and that's what most people do. I go with 6 miles, but some folks go up to 24. And the equivalent of a hex is not a 10'x10' square in a dungeon - it's the dungeon room, and you well know that there is a random chance for each room to have something in it (DMG p. 171). Some dungeon rooms have big fights, some have traps, some have curiosities or window dressing. So it is with hexes.

 

[Malrex]

First and foremost, thank TS for taking the time to spell that all out. It's nice an seemly and feels like it has a great immersive flow to it.


Err...no.

I still think that a telescoping effect is evident in your example (and EOTBs) that I don't really love. Let me just loosely enumerate them:

• chance of spotting something --- unless the fact that it's hidden is important, this seem unnecessarily simulation-ist and not a ton of fun
• every hex has a (random) chance of having something in it --- too dense. Does every 10x10' square in a dungeon have a chance?
• bullet blurbs of hex contents --- what makes something interesting (to me) is all the unexpected details that exists to be discovered (like layers of an onion)...and what makes it valuable is that there's something awesome "out there" that you have a real chance of walking past. This is not the case if it "floats" in a table (i.e. if you random-walk around enough you'll discover everything). I understand you CAN fully key a location, but most folks aren't doing that because of the enormous effort. This is of course tied to the notion (above) that every hex can have something interesting in it.

So what's the alternative?

The wilderness has a hex-map on it for distance, but it's not hex-ified. There is nothing special about moving from one hex to another. The contents on the map are predetermined with the exception of a table of random encounters (like in a dungeon, but possibly with the addition of some more elaborate "random locations" that are allowed to float until instantiated by party observation). Things are spaced out more and traveling through un-keyed wildness is hand-waived in the way one travels down a 10' wide corridor for 100-feet. Days of travel are the major unit of time, and they eat up resources. Roads, rivers, etc. are generally adhered-to because they are "safer" (usually) and faster (usually). Most points-of-interest naturally fall along by-ways because that's why roads are built, and outposts are along rivers because of their massive utility too.

I'm with Squeen on this one.
I could easily just use squares instead of hexes for my wilderness maps--doesn't really matter to me. It's just to help measure distance/time. I guess I'm more of a point crawl guy--but the 'points' aren't connected and not automatically found (but they are all fleshed out).

I liked TS's post, but that is not my playstyle and neither of us are wrong. I could see TS's posted hexcrawl as being fun for a one or two off session or if it had an overarching goal. I still consider it D&D, but just never really explored that type of gameplay. If I were to play in TS's hexcrawl, as a player I would need more of a sense of purpose or goal instead of just for exploration or to 'map this section of wilderness'. It feels too 'zoomed out' for me and although finding things in the hex may be cool, it just seems there is a missed opportunity to add the gravy to the meat (i.e. rumors, adventure hooks--seems more like, explore and find a cool place and loot and move on). Without the gravy, this is where the areas may give off that 'random' feel for me.

I'd also walk back and forth in each hex until I found what was in that hex before moving on--like looking for my 'reward' for exploring--then I would want to explore the whole cave, dungeon, camp, tower, whatever before moving on. This is why I would need some sort of goal as to why I'm doing the hexcrawl in the first place or I wouldn't get very far on the hexmap. Like adventures that focus all on combat (open a door, fight a monster, get loot)--hexcrawls feels heavy on exploration and I prefer more of a balance of all aspects.

 

[squeen]

Fair enough. Hexes are room, and they are predetermined. Then my only objection if the uniformity and density of the spacial topology.

Seriously, I am not attacking your style. My written voice must be one of a major bastard, because I'm really speaking in the hypothetical and not being critical of your play. There's no he-uses-hexes = he-a-bad-DM equation in my mind. I just think the mechanics (and visuals) of hexes is droll. Peace brother!

Last point: When I design my wilderness AND dungeons, I find I am constantly wanting to push things further apart after I finish the key. Does that reoccurring theme happen to anyone else?

Far more interesting than "How do you personally make hex-crawls not suck?" is the notion of the World-as-a-Puzzle. I wasn't aware of my own feelings on this until I wrote it down as an explanation our what is off-putting to me about extreme procedural mise-a-mash. Even the point I made earlier, about how having a world-puzzle makes character death less relevant because you (as meta-player) retain what you have learned, was a aha moment that explains why I am not so much into character fetishization and rrrrroooolll-playing! How come no one ever wants to talk about those high-brow notions from my posts---instead I am type-cast as the disapproving father-figure!

I will now wander off, sit under a tree, and meditate on these topics of deep geek thinking. ;P

 

[TerribleSorcery]

... I could see TS's posted hexcrawl as being fun for a one or two off session or if it had an overarching goal. I still consider it D&D, but just never really explored that type of gameplay. If I were to play in TS's hexcrawl, as a player I would need more of a sense of purpose or goal instead of just for exploration or to 'map this section of wilderness'. It feels too 'zoomed out' for me and although finding things in the hex may be cool, it just seems there is a missed opportunity to add the gravy to the meat (i.e. rumors, adventure hooks--seems more like, explore and find a cool place and loot and move on). Without the gravy, this is where the areas may give off that 'random' feel for me...

What on earth makes you think that my campaign lacks a sense of purpose or goal, or rumours, or adventure hooks??

 

[squeen]

@TerribleSorcery (and everyone else)...how's about this tract: What does the hex-crawl add to your game that would otherwise be missing from a map without the hex-grid?

@EOTB : I like the idea that randomly generate terrain might allow you get the drop on the DM. That's an interesting notion! I would counter that even a hand-drawn map with a hex overlay might still allow for that kind of surprise. Certainly is happens to me (as the witless DM) in the (non-random) dungeons.

 

[Malrex]

What on earth makes you think that my campaign lacks a sense of purpose or goal, or rumours, or adventure hooks??

First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm not attacking your campaign. I'm honestly trying to figure out hexcrawls, I'm ignorant on that style of gameplay, and basing my opinion on your hexcrawl example above which was very helpful in providing a picture of what transpires. Actually quite thankful for your example.

I'm actually curious where do you add the rumors, hooks, etc.? Do you have the majority of them in the starting town--rumors about some of the places that are in the hex map (I'm assuming so)--but if that's the case, wouldn't the party be actively searching for those things that caught their interest? I guess when you said there was something in every hex, would the party necessarily know anything about these discoveries that they happened to stumble upon? Or is it something that's "random" (random as in not actively seeking it out but something you had thought about and placed there). For example, the silver tower on Day 6 of your example. They bailed quick...but were there rumors or hooks about that place or did they just stumble upon it? That is the basis of my opinion--because it seems to me they bailed because they weren't invested in it (i.e. they hadn't heard anything about it).

Obviously unfair to base an opinion on an example without playing in it, but that's what I seemed to have latched on too and mean no offense.

Edit 1: You have to know where the mountain pass is before you can secure it, or use it to get troops around blocking terrain, or even to find out where the home caverns of the hobgoblins threatening the area are located. This knowledge is a form of treasure. It allows the player to meaningfully change the game world; also locating more traditional adventuring situations and opportunities on the side makes a practical process engaging for other types of players as well.

Perhaps not as much as a campaign specializing in "traditional adventuring" - but the broader form of play in the early days was wargamers adding on, not replacing.

Edit 2: perhaps another reason why hexcrawling is more attractive to me is because the raw data gained allows me the possibility of seeing something the DM (who will be controlling those large units) did not see during its generation - that I can exploit to the DM/hobgoblins surprise. Whereas a point crawl feels like discovering the DM's pre-conceived solutions/situations and allowing the DM to abstract everything else into a sort of stage prop scenery.

The knowledge as a form of treasure is something I could get behind. And NOT saying people don't do that with their hexcrawls, but I have it in my head that it's just exploration based. "Find the two villages and form a treaty between them" or EOTB's example, or something to that effect would probably make me like the idea of hexcrawls better--and maybe that's how they are lined up--I'm not an expert on it. But just uncovering the 'fog of war' just wouldn't jive with my playstyle. I would also explore everything...would probably be level 5 by Hex 5.

As for the point crawls, I think its based on player creativity and the DM. Players could do things the DM didn't pre-conceive and do that sort of thing all the time. I actually enjoy it when they do as DM.

 

[The1True]

The Wilderlands, which is his inspiration, may be minimally keyed on a per-hex basis, but as it happens it's a much more gameable method of delivering information to the DM than the 2e Forgotten Realms boxed set I got for Christmas in 1994.

This! I remember being SO frustrated with the lack of detail in both the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk worlds. But that stupid plastic distance overlay in the FR box was the final straw.

If you don't like every hex having something in it - well, okay I guess. It is possible to pick the SIZE of hexes to adjust this, and that's what most people do. I go with 6 miles, but some folks go up to 24. And the equivalent of a hex is not a 10'x10' square in a dungeon - it's the dungeon room, and you well know that there is a random chance for each room to have something in it (DMG p. 171). Some dungeon rooms have big fights, some have traps, some have curiosities or window dressing. So it is with hexes.

Preach brother!

The knowledge as a form of treasure is something I could get behind.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The hex crawls I've been working on, I've been building indexes of Items, NPC's and Locations with the aim towards assembling lists that could be added to the treasure tables so that a possible component of any given treasure hoard might be Information leading to further adventure. The indexes would need to be coded in a way that level or campaign-appropriate hooks/rumours/clues could be deliberately chosen by the DM/designer. The idea being that exploration should lead to still more exploration.

 

[squeen]

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The hex crawls I've been working on, I've been building indexes of Items, NPC's and Locations with the aim towards assembling lists that could be added to the treasure tables so that a possible component of any given treasure hoard might be Information leading to further adventure. The indexes would need to be coded in a way that level or campaign-appropriate hooks/rumours/clues could be deliberately chosen by the DM/designer. The idea being that exploration should lead to still more exploration.

Just curious --- why not just key the location (hex?) and determine the treasure and info one can find. In short, why the tables?

 

[squeen]

 

[Osrnoob]

Sanderson is gen x?

 

[The1True]

Just curious --- why not just key the location (hex?) and determine the treasure and info one can find. In short, why the tables?

Sure. And that's why I said, use the index to deliberately lay hooks etc. My players like to roll their own hoard and sometimes I let 'em. Rolling dice is fun.

If room 1,1 has a communal area with a new faction and interesting NPC's; Room 3,2 has a haunted castle sinking into a lake; and room 2,3 bores down into a multi-level dungeon then sure, why not. That map is deliberately inflammatory and NOT what people have been saying to you. There's a difference between a 30x30' room and a 3 mi hex, and you know it dude. Don't be that guy.

Moving on.

Moving on. I signed on with the intent of asking if you'd like to present one of your wilderness areas as a counterpoint rather than chipping away at the rest of us. I would be interested to see how you populate and run your ideal wilderness. I'm taking your statement that people misinterpret your forum writing style in good faith here...

 

[The1True]

Sanderson is gen x?

Sander-who?

 

[squeen]

That map is deliberately inflammatory and NOT what people have been saying to you. There's a difference between a 30x30' room and a 3 mi hex, and you know it dude. Don't be that guy.

It was not intend to anger, mock, or belittle anyone. Really. Just reflect what I was hearing about hex-crawls through a new lens in order to give a different perspective for discussion. Anger comes as a unexpected surprise---I had expected amusement and hoped for a light bulb. In this case, I think that reaction says more about the reader than it does me. Perhaps a beverage of your own choosing would be in order?

I will use it to make a coherent point, and also post an alternate map...in a bit. I just want to wait and let others have a chance to absorb it and maybe chime in.

 

[Malrex]

True, but this gets back to starting with random terrain generation - if the DM determines terrain by fiat, the limits of the DM's knowledge on the subject further reduced by what happens to be in their mind at the time pen hits paper forms the output.

For some, that's still going to produce an amazing overland map. I happen to know that for me, it will produce a lot of maps that aren't all that much different from each other in a way that seems natural (and it's also a slower process). Whereas if I randomly generate terrain and tweak I will be surprised as a DM by what comes out. And it will have those details I don't see (because I didn't make it from the ground up) that players can see and exploit. YMMV.

Makes the DM have fun in the game too then and keeps them on their toes...got it!

Sorta reminds me of that contest we did with randomly generated names for the adventure title.

I've been thinking about this for a while now. The hex crawls I've been working on, I've been building indexes of Items, NPC's and Locations with the aim towards assembling lists that could be added to the treasure tables so that a possible component of any given treasure hoard might be Information leading to further adventure. The indexes would need to be coded in a way that level or campaign-appropriate hooks/rumours/clues could be deliberately chosen by the DM/designer. The idea being that exploration should lead to still more exploration.

I like doing that sort of thing in adventures--finding info that could potentially lead to further adventure. I did that in Nevermore Mines with a small diary entry that could be found that could lead to our encounter adventure The Covey.
I'm really big on rumors/clues and that sort of thing to make the world seem bigger as they can lead to different things. I could see how it could be easily incorporated into a hexcrawl with your index idea or just in general. I guess I got the impression that exploration is King with hexcrawls and that was the main goal.

So if PCs enter a hex, and you have it labeled as 'ruined tower' and have some rough notes on it.....and the PCs decide to enter it for whatever randomly, are you all just wingin it (a dungeon) until the next session or do you have most of the stuff fleshed out? Or are the players more interested in just jotting down the note that there is a ruined tower here and moves on to the next hex? I guess that's the part that's not really clicking for me.

 

[squeen]

No one has time to fully flesh out everything. I'd go back to the judges guild model - I'll guarantee that Bob Bledsaw did not start play with play session-ready adventures in all of those hexes. You have an idea with an extra paragraph or two of rough notes. (I also keep a stock of small to mid-sized dungeon/cavern/building maps from RPG products I otherwise didn't like, to grab on the fly).

Here's Ben L. describing this same Bledshaw style for City State of the Invincible Overlord.