[Kickstarter] The Coming of Winter, but let's talk about something else...

[Malrex]

Guilty. I decided to (mostly) stop buying products because I already have too many and I only run stuff I write anyways.

In that last 5 years I have only run two purchased adventures: G1 and Bottomless Pit of Zorth. That was a total of two sessions out of more than a hundred, so <2%.

I write a response mainly for others starting out on the publishing kickstarter trek--the main purpose of this thread. There are those that do it for income, and those that do it for a hobby/fun. There is the third group that I believe I fit in--where you do it for fun, but also, you want to create a quality product with original art and at LEAST break even and maybe even score a little bit of beer money or an art budget for the next project--a hobby of passion. Most of the time, the time you spend on a project won't be fully fulfilled by monetary means--there has to be a level of enjoyment to make it worth it.

There is 2 paths to that---1. write a kickass adventure and obtain original art through a Kickstarter, or 2. Write an adventure and utilize stock art/AI art. Overall, I feel, despite some desperate moves (spending a bunch of money on original art) resulting in desperate/stressful times (will I get paid back?), I've been successful with that in breaking even and/or gaining a little beer money. Kickstarter is an interesting beast, where some seem to go above and beyond their dreams (Shadowdark) and some barely break even or don't get funded (City of Vermilion). I get baffled by Bryce's reviews where an adventure may 'suck', yet they blow it out of the water with their Kickstarter...What's their secret?...Well, I think DP breaks it down pretty good and gave me some realizations.

First of all, thanks DP for the break down. Seriously--I appreciate your time on that.

Second of all--I will echo what Squeen says in that I admit, that I don't buy very many products anymore. In addition to what DP is saying, I buy from Hawk, Huso, Melan, Rosethorn, Dragon Age, and Chainsaw, and maybe a few others to enjoy, or mostly to learn from, but it's ultra rare that I do so........the main reason, is I don't want to steal ideas but also I want to support authors (I mean, I admit I'm super jealous of Hawk's drawing ability and writing/ideas?--how cool would it be to deliver the full package in your own vision??!!!) does that make sense? Chainsaw wrote his last adventure and I found mine to be super similar in one area--he published first but I was bewildered how some of our ideas were super similar! lol! I even messaged him about it because I felt awkward about it, even though I hadn't published what I had been working on (small part of City of Vermilion) but it certainly had made me pause. And now I have the opportunity to tweak it more--but it's that fear of someone saying 'you copied so and so' when really, that is one of the main reasons why I dont buy adventures anymore--so I DONT subconsciously copy ideas. BUT...I'm in Squeen's and other's camp where I have enough or have the ability to create my own material, so feeling the hype of buying something new is super low to me.

Which brings me confliction. I hang out at the wrong forums. I'm wasting my time trying 'to make/form a community' around our stuff as some of my friends say I need to do (who don't visit these forums). I've enjoyed making comments/remarks on Dragonsfoot and here, or doing/participating in contests, or constantly arguing/nerd rage about different topics/discussion. I did that for fun, not with the intention of 'building a community' or trying to make sales, but being genuine (even being the editor for Dragons Foot magazine 2x to get people's ideas out there). I held a Deity Contest recently, again from pressure to 'build a community'--I received 2 submissions. That's it. I don't feel cut out for this...it's not me, I'm a hermit.

Admittedly, it was fun and honestly, they were super quality submissions and I plan to utilize them in The Marrow Ravine as I have the author's permission--but hearing the whole 'you need to build a community' feels fake to me and it's just not me. So I feel at peace that my Kickstarters will never blow up and more importantly, I will never have to join forums that I don't care about or be fake about products I believe in or ask dumbass questions to try and build up a community--like my shit or not. So far, it breaks even although a few times I wanted to go bigger. But overall, I'm good with it to justify breaking even on a hobby.

Fantasy Adventure Gaming! We deliberately reject the OSR as a label and want to differentiate from it, not associate with it. But yes, the podcast is all about playing the game as you've mentioned your high school DM was doing

The OSR idea has been manipulated and overtaken. I want to join discussions, but don't feel I grasp all that it encompasses these days. I like the enthusiasm, even if it's not how I visualize OSR.....A new 'logo' that sticks would be helpful...

 

[DangerousPuhson]

There is the third group that I believe I fit in--where you do it for fun, but also, you want to create a quality product with original art and at LEAST break even and maybe even score a little bit of beer money or an art budget for the next project--a hobby of passion.

There is 2 paths to that---1. write a kickass adventure and obtain original art through a Kickstarter, or 2. Write an adventure and utilize stock art/AI art.

...

The OSR idea has been manipulated and overtaken. I want to join discussions, but don't feel I grasp all that it encompasses these days. I like the enthusiasm, even if it's not how I visualize OSR.....A new 'logo' that sticks would be helpful...

Sounds to me like you took your hobby and made it into a job, which we all know sucks the joy out of it.

Art is really a sales hook for perusing DM buyers more than a functional element of module design anyway (aside from handouts, only the DM will see it). As for using AI for art - no two people will come to consensus, but I say if you make product for fun and not for profit (ie. your income from what you make is zero, but your expenditure is limited solely to your time/energy), then AI art is ultimately harmless, like using clip art or public domain images (but much cooler looking). I personally argue from a place of "I'm not looking to profit from this work I'm not depriving some artist of work since I'd not intended to pay for any art for this free module to begin with, and if y'all have a problem with that then I don't know what to tell you...", but your mileage may vary.

As for the OSR thing - just talk about gameplay man. Stuff you like, stuff you don't like, stuff that works or doesn't work... "OSR" is just a label, and not even a very good one. Focus on the core of the game, not the extraneous and fickle fluff around it.

 

[Malrex]

Sounds to me like you took your hobby and made it into a job, which we all know sucks the joy out of it.

Art is really a sales hook for perusing DM buyers more than a functional element of module design anyway (aside from handouts, only the DM will see it). As for using AI for art - no two people will come to consensus, but I say if you make product for fun and not for profit (ie. your income from what you make is zero, but your expenditure is limited solely to your time/energy), then AI art is ultimately harmless, like using clip art or public domain images (but much cooler looking). I personally argue from a place of "I'm not looking to profit from this work I'm not depriving some artist of work since I'd not intended to pay for any art for this free module to begin with, and if y'all have a problem with that then I don't know what to tell you...", but your mileage may vary.

As for the OSR thing - just talk about gameplay man. Stuff you like, stuff you don't like, stuff that works or doesn't work... "OSR" is just a label, and not even a very good one. Focus on the core of the game, not the extraneous and fickle fluff around it.

Nah, it doesn't feel like a job yet, thankfully, but it can get a little bit too stressful for a hobby during a kickstarter.
I hear what you are saying about art...but it's actually one of my favorite things to do is to work with and see an artist and see my vision get drawn out. I've always liked the fight scene pics.---I guess the enjoyment I get working with an artist is the tradeoff I get for the stress in a Kickstarter.

I get frustrated with AI art--I've used that at the table a few times. Mayhaps I haven't really used a good program for it.

 

[The1True]

I still buy relatively frequently, although it takes a while to get to reading them, and I don't always use them for anything but inspiration.

Yeah, I have more stuff than I could ever use, but I love to read good adventures and get inspired by them. I like to support the creators as well, and buying a product feels less committed and more targeted than subscribing to a patreon I guess?

 

[The1True]

Art is really a sales hook for perusing DM buyers more than a functional element of module design anyway (aside from handouts, only the DM will see it).

I think I've said this elsewhere on the forum; but to reiterate: I think, unless it's just tangentially-related filler (like public domain art), illustrations help to clarify to the reader what you the designer were intending for an encounter. It can also inspire or motivate the DM.
Unfortunately, it does tend to get buried in the text which leads to it not being used, or the DM having to pick the book up and try to cover the text while sharing the pic with the players. For Barrowmaze, I ended up scraping all the art out of the PDF and turning it into an illustration library in the Roll20 journal, which makes me think that, along with more and more PDF's on DriveThru coming with a Map Pack where the maps have been separated from the text and often include Player versions or VTT-ready version (70 pixels/square etc), what might be neat is an Art Pack as well, with all the art stripped from the text and labeled with the rooms the illustrations correspond to.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I think I've said this elsewhere on the forum; but to reiterate: I think, unless it's just tangentially-related filler (like public domain art), illustrations help to clarify to the reader what you the designer were intending for an encounter. It can also inspire or motivate the DM.

Don't get me wrong, I love me some good art, and I'd never buy something without art (it is essential in its way); that being said, the utility of art exists in the way you say, I agree, but it's a pretty narrow purpose. Ultimately, clarification and DM inspiration (while nice to have) are prune-able elements of a module; they can be scaled back with minimal impact. All I'm saying is a guy like Malrex who is pulling his hair out over having excellent albeit expensive art probably shouldn't fret over such comparatively small gains, especially if his quest for art is holding him back.

Also to consider: AI art would fit that purpose you've identified - I find it's uncanny surrealism really suits fostering atmosphere. For instance, something like the image below paired with a room description to convey the feel of an environment:

http://imgur.com/vEIlFuL

 

[Beoric]

I get frustrated with AI art--I've used that at the table a few times. Mayhaps I haven't really used a good program for it.

Me, too. I spent a lot of time a while ago trying to get various programs to make a catgirl succubus for a VTT token. Most didn't even come close, in fact most were barely recognizable as humanoid.

I like to support the creators as well, and buying a product feels less committed and more targeted than subscribing to a patreon I guess?

This, too.