Post Mortem & Results

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Also, worth noting here that the editor here has lost all of @The1True's formatting, the PDF is much easier to follow than this.
yeah, sorry, the copy-paste looked fine in the reply editor here and then promptly dropped all its formatting when I hit 'Post reply' :\

Thanks for the notes! This is all good stuff and really really helpful! I'm starting to worry now, because this was the tightest and most conventional of my mini-scenarios. Things got looser as I started to experiment with maps and interactivity in the later quests. I'm going to have to establish a unifying style and (very discouragingly) probably have to rewrite everything as a result.

I think one of my chiefest failings is that someone (DP I think?) wisely suggested that I should show-don't-tell with regards to back-story/history. Like, if the history of a character or an object doesn't come through in the description or findable lore, than it's just wall of text cluttering up the module that only the DM will ever see. So I've been scattering about all these clues to the various backstories, but as Malrex has repeatedly pointed out, there's no summary at the start of these things and I keep having to write explanations in this thread. That means I've failed to make the finished puzzle; the big picture clear to the DM. I'm thinking on top of a quick summary at the front, maybe a checklist at the back for key story elements? Or a checklist with major NPC descriptions?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I think one of my chiefest failings is that someone (DP I think?) wisely suggested that I should show-don't-tell with regards to back-story/history. Like, if the history of a character or an object doesn't come through in the description or findable lore, than it's just wall of text cluttering up the module that only the DM will ever see. So I've been scattering about all these clues to the various backstories, but as Malrex has repeatedly pointed out, there's no summary at the start of these things and I keep having to write explanations in this thread. That means I've failed to make the finished puzzle; the big picture clear to the DM. I'm thinking on top of a quick summary at the front, maybe a checklist at the back for key story elements? Or a checklist with major NPC descriptions?
Show-don't-tell the players; a summary is good for the DM. But I also think using point form makes it harder to get flavour and nuance. It reads a bit like a DM's personal notes right now, like reminders to someone who already knows the material, as opposed to communicating the material to someone who has never seen it before. So yeah, I think there would be a lot of rewriting in the next draft.

But hey, Gygax always had trouble turning his notes into something that other people could use, that's what took him so long in putting out modules, and is probably why ToEE had to be completed by Mentzer and Q1 ended up being written by Sutherland.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It might be a personal crutch as well. I tend to miss information when it's presented to me in paragraph form.

I have been playing a lot recently and finding I get lost after 2-3 sentences of description. The DM says we were warned or tipped off about a detail, but none of us noticed it because we were thinking about what we wanted to do with the thing in the first sentence.
Similarly, as a DM running a scenario on the fly without prior note-taking, I find myself wishing for discrete lines of information that I can readily digest and divulge on the fly. I think I get what you guys are saying about a slightly more in depth encounter description followed by one level of indentation and strong use of BOLD though. The formatting in PoUR was pretty on point for me.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Right, but Prince used an introductory paragraph before his bullet points AND he used full sentences in his bullet points, with strategic use of bolding.

I personally think an entry has to do two things. The first is to communicate what is going on in the entry holistically and with nuance so the DM understands the encounter. I think this is best done with full sentences, but still needs an economy of words; ideally the DM gets to read this before the game and while not under time pressure.

The second thing is to flag important elements and remind prepared DMs who have already read the entry what it is all about. This is where bullets and bolding come in. These are basically like buying a used book with someone else's highlighting and marginal notes. Except hopefully its more like if those annotations were done by the prof, who knows what is important.

I'm not sure that your descriptions need to be deeper, or at least not that much deeper. I'm not even sure that all of it needs to be in paragraph form. I just think you need to use full sentences for anything other than really basic information.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Since I'm being, and am going to continue to be viewing your work critically, I think it is important to answer this question. Yes, I think what you have is worth whipping into shape.
I agree you should spend the time to whip it into shape.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
When I'm writing stuff for myself to use at the table, I write it out "long-form" to embed all the detail in the murky parts of my brain.

Then I go back and bold bits of the text to create a "very short form" description of of "ring 1" detail that functions as a truncated room description if bolded words were the only text in the entry. Quick-scanning the bolded text at the table is enough of a mental jog for me to recall all the non-bolded "ring 2+" detail without looking at it.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Alright @squeen (and anyone else interested) I finally got a couple of hours to clean one of these mini-quests up. Here's the Hell's Crack Refinery cleaned up, system mostly-agnostic, changed to a @Malrex -inspired format, two columns with inset maps. It should print nicely to 7 pages double-sided.

As I've mentioned, this is one of the adventures I'm most concerned about due to the amount of description necessary to run the interactive elements of the installation. Any advice regarding the new format/interactivity would be greatly appreciated!
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Well...damn it. I'm at the pool, typing on a phone...so bear with me.
The1tru....I'm not sure what I read. I'm missing something. I realize this may be a chapter in a ongoing overall big adventure, but my suggestion is to make up some different adventure hooks so if I think this thing is usuable for my campaign, I can steal it and place it in my world. Modular!

There is some sort of disconnect and could my inability to imagine this because its more scifi then fantasy, at least that's what it feels like to me...but I feel it needs an overall dungeon description...the reactor...gasses...radioactive potential dangers. Instead, I feel like this is revealed as I read, but since I don't have a clear picture, it makes it confusing for me. I'm a nature dude so trying to imagine the inside of a reactor core is difficult for me.

Don't be afraid to hit that Return key for some white space. Mainly between your descriptive paragraph and your bullets.

There just seems like there is alot going on in the bullets...I feel like a GM note describing the reactor and its environment/dungeon before the area descriptions could help reduce the amount of info in the bullets.

There are a lot of 'if this happens...' which can make things wordy and is a trap as there can be hundreds of ' what ifs'---are you going to list them all?

One entry...described the scene briefly, but then in the bullets describes this radioactive dust wind...that wind description should be in 1st description....then what happens with it in the bullet points (-2 to action rolls, etc.). Give the players a hint that there is a wind, so they can take precautions, etc. It's almost like you don't give a heads up for players that something might be suspicious and instead just give what happens to the DM--make it more interactive.
PC "I travel down the canyon wall".....
DM: "the wind's dust confuses your senses (-2 action roles) and a moray eel comes out of a hole and attacks you..."
PC: "Oh, I didnt realize there were holes and wind going on..."

That Ruckus sword is badass. God's Artery...ya, I want to explore that...!

I'm frustrated because I feel this is super creative but my brain isn't working to imagine it...and I'm not sure why. For me, the writing needs a little more hand-holding on the environment of the reactor and what the reactor looks like. Also don't know if Im the best to comment--is this 4e?

Also with the map and descriptions, I suggest doing 3A, 3B...instead of just having the title Level 3 and going into A., B., C., cause as you flip pages, may be harder to find what you are looking for--was it 3A or 4A?
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
That Ruckus sword is badass
It's an homage to the badass blade in 'Brotherhood of the Wolf', an amazing monster-hunt movie!

Thanks for the review! This is all good advice.
I play 3e, so my writing is coming from that standpoint, but I tried to do for it what I do with the 1e adventures I convert. Instead of saying "DC 23 Hide" I say "DC (Hard) Stealth" which should indicate to someone running the game on the fly that the PC should make a difficult roll (roughly 25% chance, whatever system their using) to achieve results. I write a 'to hit' bonus in the monster stats to denote the number to add to the monster's base ability to hit (in 1e's case I'd add the number to a 1 HD THAC0 I think?) and yeah, there's a 3e scaled amount of magic items on NPC's which can easily be baked into monster stats and stripped away by magic-averse DM's

There are a lot of 'if this happens
I'm really sensitive to this now, but I could find no other language for it. I believe for most of the cases that I used 'ifs' the possibilities were pretty binary (i.e. If it's on. If it's off.)

There is some sort of disconnect
This is valid criticism and I don't want you to view this as me arguing but I feel in the case of tech or magi-tech, using anachronistic language (the 'boom stick' spits fire and hurls metal stones at great speeds) it's better to use a language familiar to the DM and players so the images and options are clear in their heads. There are installations strewn about the Wastes left behind by the Vanished race that have a technological S3 vibe. S3 is the pinnacle of D&D for me. That's a personal taste and it's coming out in the design. I'm definitely aiming for a Medieval Gamaworld/Boothill theme in the Wastes. Still. Obviously something grated on you in the writing and that is valid. If you find a minute to drill down, I'd love to hear more!

.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
It's an homage to the badass blade in 'Brotherhood of the Wolf', an amazing monster-hunt movie!

Thanks for the review! This is all good advice.
I play 3e, so my writing is coming from that standpoint, but I tried to do for it what I do with the 1e adventures I convert. Instead of saying "DC 23 Hide" I say "DC (Hard) Stealth" which should indicate to someone running the game on the fly that the PC should make a difficult roll (roughly 25% chance, whatever system their using) to achieve results. I write a 'to hit' bonus in the monster stats to denote the number to add to the monster's base ability to hit (in 1e's case I'd add the number to a 1 HD THAC0 I think?) and yeah, there's a 3e scaled amount of magic items on NPC's which can easily be baked into monster stats and stripped away by magic-averse DM's



I'm really sensitive to this now, but I could find no other language for it. I believe for most of the cases that I used 'ifs' the possibilities were pretty binary (i.e. If it's on. If it's off.)



This is valid criticism and I don't want you to view this as me arguing but I feel in the case of tech or magi-tech, using anachronistic language (the 'boom stick' spits fire and hurls metal stones at great speeds) it's better to use a language familiar to the DM and players so the images and options are clear in their heads. There are installations strewn about the Wastes left behind by the Vanished race that have a technological S3 vibe. S3 is the pinnacle of D&D for me. That's a personal taste and it's coming out in the design. I'm definitely aiming for a Medieval Gamaworld/Boothill theme in the Wastes. Still. Obviously something grated on you in the writing and that is valid. If you find a minute to drill down, I'd love to hear more!

.
I may have to rewatch that movie. That blade reminded me of a sword in...umm...Bleach I think, Japanese Anime.

I bolded a part above. I admit, this may of been described before in some of your other work, as this adventure seems to be a small part of many? but this is the type of thing that I'm talking about to put in a GM section. You had a history section, but I guess I just need a little more to visualize all the pieces and how they relate to one another in the beginning, rather than finding out bits and pieces as I read it?

Something is grating me about the writing and I honestly can't describe what it is...like the DC checks are fine, but I feel there needs to be something in the description for the players to be able to react/interact with it first? like if there are bad gasses, make sure gasses are in the description, so players can react instead of just having a DC check? I think I need to reread it again and maybe take a room example and break it down.
The disconnect could also be just on me as I never played Gamma world. I'd have a terrible time writing a scifi/gamma world adventure because I could imagine something, but not put names to it, etc. I actually LOVE the theme of boothill meets gammaworld vibe you got going on, reminds me of the Galaxy Rangers cartoon.

Let me look it over again and see if I can pin down whats bugging me. I feel like its a minor thing as the majority of the adventure is pretty cool and creative--I love the description of the big bad guy.
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
I have not read it but if I hear there are a lot of if statatments? Thats an area to improve.

You can never predict player actions and trying to is a loosing battle I think.

This is why I prefer location and situation based adventure design. well described, no matter what players do the gm can react.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I have not read it
It's a pretty quick read!

I hear there are a lot of if statatments
IF 'statatments' :p are my Achilles heal. Locations and Situations are great, but players appreciate a little Interactivity. I'm finding it difficult to present these interactive elements without the 'If-Then'. Give it a read and tell me where I'm going wrong!
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm finding it hard to assess because it assumes a familiarity with the setting that I don't have.

I appreciate distinguishing the monsters with boxed text.

I can't tell the difference in purpose behind the "underscore" bullets and the "dash" bullets, but don't find either to be particularly useful in distinguishing descriptive text from mechanics. Since the mechanics come first and are in bullet form, my brain wants to read the descriptive text as subordinate to the mechanics.

Hmm, looking closer at the "Huge Radiation Elemental" entry, you start with an underscored bullet, which should be your top level entry, but then you go to the boxed text, which is more prominent and is not obviously subordinate. Then you have paragraphs with no bullets, which look subordinate to the boxed text but not to the underscore text. Then more underscore text, which should be subordinate to the boxed text but is identical to the "header", which is also underscore text. Then you have dash text which looks like it should be subordinate to the underscore text, but I can't see a difference in the type of content.

TL;DR, I think you need to choose a format that makes it clear which text is modifying/subordinate to which text. I like it a lot better than all the colour coding and symbols, though. I note it is much clearer when it is just used for the wandering monster entries and is not part of a keyed entry.

On to page 6 now, the white space paragraph breaks make it much easier to follow.

Both the images and the word choice for the Control Room make the whole thing seem very modern and antiseptic. Is that the image you are going for? If so, is it possible to get that imagery in a way that conveys its alienness to the PCs? I'm inferring that this is some sort of post-apocalyptical setting, and assuming that your average village in the setting is less modern in feel.

Page 8, and you have lost the paragraph breaks. Boo!

It's a pretty quick read!
Perhaps, but not so quick to comprehend. This is a really complicated space. It isn't really 7 levels, it's 8 pages to describe 1 room divided into 7 spaces. Outside of the formatting issues, it would take a fair amount of effort to digest this and comment on playability. I do feel like there has to be a way to make the areas more accessible for the DM, but I don't have a good enough handle on it to say what that might be. Maybe a general (written) overview of the space? Maybe rewrite the first paragraph of the control room to give a better sense of space?

Looking at it, I do think there are problems with the Control Room description. You are having to synthesize information from the cutaway diagram, the 3D image, the level 1 map and the Control Room description all at once; I think this is a place where you can deviate from Bryce's usual advice not to put in the description information that is on the map, because there are too many maps to do that easily.

(As an aside, the thing I assume is a ladder on the map doesn't look like a ladder, and it took me quite a while to determine that it was supposed to be a ladder, and I'm still not sure. I assumed from the external image with a hole that appears to be centered, that the ladder came out in the middle, but I'm assuming that the middle of the room is actually a huge pillar because it is black on the map. A better "ladder" icon would help, as would marking the hatch in the floor.)

So it seems to me that the PCs have emerged in a circular room, 50' across, with a massive 10' wide pillar in the middle (trigger fruitless search for secret doors - does that count as "massaging" the pillar?). The ladder is affixed to the wall of the central pillar, with another hatch in the floor beside it. The outer wall is ringed by thick glass windows. The walls and floors of the room are green, and look like enameled ceramics but are impossibly smooth and without any detectable seams.

If the PCs look out the windows, they will see that the room they are in sits within and near the top of some sort of domed artificial cavern, filled with a glowing mist. Through the mist they can see three massive pillars which stop short of the ceiling (would the players know they are tanks?), placed equidistant around the room, which disappear into a glowing fogbank (how far below, I can't tell?). Looking closely at the pillars, it is apparent that some kind of bridge or wide strut extends from each pillar toward the center of the room, disappearing from vision somewhere beneath the room in which the PCs are now standing.

Which is, I think you will agree, a lot of description, but I can't think how to orient the players with less. Like I said, a complicated space, I have spent about an hour parsing this page, and I'm not sure I got everything. I am not at all certain that I'm not missing something important about the animations. This might be a good place for pictures.

Given that the tanks can't be reached until you get to level 2, I'm not sure the details of manipulating the valves should be in this section. It actually threw me off track quite badly, and contributed to me misinterpreting a number of other room elements; I kept looking for a way to manipulate them remotely using the displays.

(Another aside: I did not immediately understand that the numbering in the cutaway diagram were "level" numbers, they look like room numbers, so the "level" appellation threw me a bit.)

I will say that having now spent more than an hour deciphering level 1 I am quite interested in it, and I think I am getting a sense of how the space works. But it was a lot of work to get there.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I will say that having now spent more than an hour deciphering level 1 I am quite interested in it, and I think I am getting a sense of how the space works. But it was a lot of work to get there.
Lol sorry about the time-sink. Thanks for write-up though; this is all good stuff! I'm going to have to go back over my work to see what you mean.

Off the bat though, I have no idea how to set the size of the Tabs in Word (or anywhere really). I think if I knew how to do that, I'd set a one-space tab instead of that Underscore and indent the entire subordinate paragraph. I'm going to have to look for that hyphenated paragraph start you mentioned, that may be an artifact from the previous version.

Another thing I'm thinking about is separating different chunks of information with grey highlighting like the tables and/or leading each block with a BOLDED TITLE. I thought I was being cunning by matching bolded keywords to keywords from the descriptive text, but it's not obvious enough.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
This opened my eyes to what people have been beating me over the head with for a while: There's a lot of stuff that only I, the creator, know. I can try to write from that standpoint, but in the end, it's possible that only outside readers will be able to spot the things I'm just taking for granted. It's a tough one since adventure writing can be a very solitary pursuit. I've got some heavy rewriting ahead!

And on a side-note. I think I can fix some of the longer room descriptions by breaking them up under sub-headings (give them their own letters on the map). One of the difficulties I was encountering was what to do with descriptions of items that get revealed after combat or with further investigation. I didn't want to put the description in with the initial room description for fear of the DM accidentally reading out something that wouldn't immediately be apparent. I think breaking the room up should partially solve that, but in some cases there's just going to be a second or third descriptive paragraph (which I have been not indenting, if that helps explain why some paragraphs are indented and others aren't?).

I think I might also separate a What's Happening Here paragraph from the Description paragraph and put it before the description (and, god help me, box or highlight the description a bit like read-aloud).
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
"I'm finding it hard to assess because it assumes a familiarity with the setting that I don't have. "

Beoric nails it for me.
I struggled with the same issue in the past (and sometimes catch myself still). There is this weird deal...where I think designers don't want to reveal the 'surprise' right away...but for this kind of writing--you need too. Lay it all out in the beginning.

As for items--I usually gray box them, or you could put them an Appendix and just have a simple note (or do both if adventure is long). Gorbrak's Finger of Death (see Appendix A, pg. 45).
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
it assumes a familiarity with the setting
I'm currently rewriting this thing. As predicted, now that it's neatly formatted, I'm loth to mess it all up again (particularly tables and boxed text get all screwed up when they get bumped over to the next page). Anyway, I'm trying to address the above concern by adding a Summary paragraph to rooms that require explanation. This was a particularly bad scenario for this because it's basically a culminating event in the story and only arises as a result of piecing together fragments of information found throughout the sandbox. It's not really supposed to stand alone.

But it could, as a quick, Sci-Fi side quest for a fantasy campaign.

So I need to add a layer of explanation and extra hooks at the start so it can be run as such, and I need to clean up the room descriptions so they also don't depend on an unknown backstory, which is proving difficult.

So yeah, if there's anything in particular that doesn't make sense, let me know so I can try to rewrite it.
 
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