Evard's Small Tentacle
*eyeroll*
All this factionalism perceived is largely a function of people choosing to live in virtual worlds and mistaking those engagements to be reality and truth which is patently false. Go talk to your neighbors.
The state of Post-OSR content
- Thread starter Yora
- Start date
Evard's Small Tentacle
*eyeroll*
That’s your fault
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
No, I edited that stuff out because on reflection I thought it was inappropriate. That said, for reasons I may go into in a DM, I feel a need to distance myself from this paragraph:
That is, I need to state my disagreement to what I think it is saying. Because it is kind of vague. Is this a reference to a single incident, or a generalization suggesting all allegations of sexual misconduct are false? My impression is the latter, but I don't actually want to know the answer, because I don't want to be drawn into the argument. However I do want to draw attention to the problem with this sort of statement, because it is anathema to civil discourse.
The statement is disparaging without being clear who is being disparaged. It is, in fact, a dog whistle. I'm not going to mince words, I think dog whistles are gutless. They signal one group, offend another, and evade cogent argument by pretending they are something else, or providing insufficient detail to argue against. So you end up with no either no opposition to your position, or an argument that cannot be lost, not because the argument is without merit, but because you have taken merit out of the question entirely. It is just like Stuart's veiled Pepe reference, which he explains with an argument that doesn't even really attempt to justify the label. What, anyone who advocates or plays a similar style to Prince is alt-right? Fuck you, Stuart.
Turning back to Melan's statement, if I don't want to be seen to be acquiescing to what I think he is saying, my only option is to post some sort of vague objection. So here we are.
Melan
*eyeroll*
It is a general observation on the state of society and online discourse, but in the interest of clarity - sorry, Bryce! - apparently a bunch of absolute winners on social media are trying to cancel me for trrraanssssphobia, which is what I was referring to, being a reactionary, which is something I take personal pride in, and being a big old chud, which I'll take as a compliment. Sad!
PrinceofNothing
High Executarch
Looks like here is where we put the effects of the Cessation to the true test, but its also where the reason for the no-politics edict start becoming apparent. I don't think one can resolve disagreements based on fundamental principles with discourse, no matter how civil so the result will either be mutually agreed seperation, some sort of imposition of force or a temporary armistice. I am going to keep this little experiment running for a bit longer but if you guys start getting heated I will shut it down.
That's perfectly fine.
That's perfectly fine.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Talking about a shitty thing that you say happened to you is one thing. Linking it to the "catgirl squad" or "catgirl commissars" is another, since in context (I assume despite the results of google searches that it has nothing to do with anime or furries) it looks like a reference to the MeToo movement, feminism or some other common target of misogynist hatred. Really not sure how that is a reference to cancel culture (which is of course the sole purview of the social justice movement - hey, anyone remember the Moral Majority?). But that is where you take shitty-thing-that-happened and turn it into a vague, intentionally controversial political statement.
And if you are prone to making intentionally controversial political statements, maybe you shouldn't be surprised when they generate controversy. And if you don't want people to think you are transphobic, maybe don't make fun of the word? Or if I am misreading you, and you are transphobic and think people should be fine with that, then I guess I know where you stand.
EDIT2: Not that I think it is ok if you are, strictly speaking, being "cancelled" (and not merely hotly criticized) for statements that are not made in an arena where free speech is justifiably limited or subject to public scrutiny. But a wise man does not court the mob.
Last edited:
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I watched the mob pile onto @Melan over at Age of Dusk and I've got to say, given that the West sat on our hands and did nothing while the Red Army rolled over Hungary like a pack of bloodthirsty barbarians, it's fair that the average Hungarian should bear some strong animus towards communism and sure, why not, socialism in general. That he then doubled down and prodded the mob with inflammatory statements probably wasn't the wisest surrender of higher ground that I've witnessed.
I get it, different people have different responses to persecution. I definitely fall on the fuck you, burn it all down side of that axis. But if you're a well respected creator with a moderate following, given that you obviously think before you write your thoughtful meditations on our hobby, why not do the same before engaging with the more shrill among us? All your doing is turning off the moderates (who are still the vast majority of us no matter what the media would have us think) in your audience when you engage with either side.
I get it, different people have different responses to persecution. I definitely fall on the fuck you, burn it all down side of that axis. But if you're a well respected creator with a moderate following, given that you obviously think before you write your thoughtful meditations on our hobby, why not do the same before engaging with the more shrill among us? All your doing is turning off the moderates (who are still the vast majority of us no matter what the media would have us think) in your audience when you engage with either side.
Melan
*eyeroll*
I believe some of you guys are not getting my point, or perhaps I am not expressing myself sufficiently clearly. I am not, and have never been pretending to be a filthy "neutral". I am a politics junkie with firmly held beliefs (mainly non-USian ones), and a keen interest in what goes on in the world. What I am not usually doing is to drag my views (whatever they are) into forums where they have no business being. You might get a hint of them if you look closely, but I try not to overshare out of respect for the rest of the company, not for a lack of thoughts, beliefs, and convictions. There is a difference. We may, of course, hold a thoughtful discussion, or better, engage in prestigious shitposting as it was meant to be done on the Internet - elsewhere.
But prodding foaming rëtards* and totalitarian slime with a stick, that shall never be not funny.
* Oh no! Oh nooooooooo!
But prodding foaming rëtards* and totalitarian slime with a stick, that shall never be not funny.
* Oh no! Oh nooooooooo!
PrinceofNothing
High Executarch
Not on my blog surely. That was on Bryce's blog I think.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
embarrassing (for me)
PrinceofNothing
High Executarch
Apparently the mere act of reviewing Zak or Venger is enough to get one branded anathema these days but the low-level shitposting serves to do my audience selection for me. I've thought about putting some sort of disclaimer on the About Prince page but I figured the selection-at-the-door is a net positive. I'm fairly pleased with my comments section actually, you get lots of insightful commentary, some gentle ribbing and the time when one of my friends impersonated Kevin Crawford and caused Venger to write a sulky article entitled 'Stars Without Civility' and the real Kevin Crawford had to come forth from seclusion and issue a disclaimer. Disruptive behavior is handled via trial by insult, and there you go.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
You even have Kent (somewhat) under control!
PrinceofNothing
High Executarch
In each man's comment's section there are always two Kents, eternally at War. A Kent of Goodness, whose insight and razor wit brings mirth and helps one hone one's craft and a Kent of Evil, who heaps drunken scorn on all of one's efforts.
Which Kent wins?
The Kent you feed.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
This stirs up a lot I would like to say, but honestly am afraid to enter in the public record.
For me at least, growing up in the US, that's a new phenomena....the fear of speaking one's mind.
I saw it recently on a Linux OS bug-reporting mailing list---someone showed up out of nowhere an start calling everyone involved in High-Performance Computing white elitists, and demand to know how the hiring practices at FermiLab were ensuring diversity/equity. The moderators eventually shut the discussion down (politics) and referred the instigators to human resources, but it left me shaken and a bit scared---targeted by an adversarial social justice hit-squad in what previous had been a "safe" place to donate one's time to make a free product a bit better. Everything Open Source was built via the internet and done by invisible volunteers---how then was it possible contributors were being barred based on sex or the color of their skin? Yet now, after the fait accompli (open source software is running 90% of the world's servers), when there are jobs and money involved...folks show up and start demanding their "fair share" of what they didn't build. I know...gate-keeping, historical privileged, etc. Maybe that's real, maybe it's not. Who can be a fair and impartial judge?
There's a lot of that going on right now. As viewed from one-side, all the "old boys clubs" are finally getting broken up --- sexist/racist/homophobic video gamer culture, D&D culture, comic book culture, cinema, corporate culture, you name it.
When I was a lad in school, the future prognosticators in social studies warned us that right around 2020 the US would switch from majority European/Caucasian to a plurality. So the power base is shifted and the privileged culture of the previous 250 years is loosing it grip on the reins. That's bound to be tumultuous.
Add to that the liberal Baby Boomers bolstered by their Millennial children who come down hard on the side of "tear it all down" (they really hated their parent's rules) and used to chant on the college campuses "The times they are a changin'!", and even worse "Hey hey! Ho ho! Western Civ has got to go!". Those two bulge demographics carry a lot of weight.
Honestly though, I worry for civilization-as-I've-known-it. I am biased in favor of Western Culture and Judaeo-Christian Morales. While it's easy to dig up many, many, many examples of its unfairness and abuses of power (Westerners are still humans after all), but I think its the best mankind has seen to date. In its defense I offer to the court:
The folks who are kicking in the doors of all the old boys clubs and putting all the "old white guys" up against the wall...well, it feels a bit like the land reformation in third world countries after a Communist revolution. I imagine it feels great shooting all the European-descended land owners and grabbing stuff...until the economy collapses.
Recall the Enlightenment, rationalism, and belief in the modern State gave us WWI and WWII. It all makes perfect sense in your head...until suddenly it doesn't. Someone, sensing an opportunity for personal power, takes it all a bit too far. We humans have been finding new and innovative ways to screw each other over for thousands of years...and even more ways to justify it. There is some truth to the fact that with 7 billion people, there is real competition. It's NOT a purely cooperative game. Some times it really is zero-sum. There will be winners and losers. Nature seems to favor that mechanic. Survivial of the fittest. That's the essence of Capitalism and Free Markets too.
So @Beoric: injustice is injustice...there's no denying that. I'll lend what strength I have to defend the weak. But when the tables turn (as it feels like they are doing in the US), I'll also stand against the mob who are out for blood/revenge/power. Because...injustice is injustice, no matter who is doing it. I would like to see words like color-blind and meritocracy come back into vogue. It should be possible for people to actually fail---but only when its through their own (in)actions and not because the game is rigged. When those ideas fall out of favor, watch out! But, again, who can be a fair and impartial judge? Maybe it would be best if you could only argue for a subgroup to which you have no affiliation and against one you are a part of.
I like you all well enough, even if I only agree with 30% of what you say. That other 70% is still interesting in its dementia. Talk is talk. Actions are what matters. And in the final analysis, we are all 99% full of s***. So, screw idiotic microaggressions---suck it up kiddies, and take it like a (wo)man. Real life is messy.
Also, I will miss seeing sexy lady superheroes and Martian Princesses in revealing uniforms....because that's how I was wired. As a man, I am very thankful God made woman. What is more beautiful? Sex has been over-used to titilate and sell stuff to be sure, but in moderation it has its time and place. A neutered world would be a gray, deary place I would think.
OK. Now that's out of the way---and while the political ban is still off---someone give me the straight gossip on what is going on with Patrick Stuart and the Reddit/Twit-verse? I'm clueless.
For me at least, growing up in the US, that's a new phenomena....the fear of speaking one's mind.
I saw it recently on a Linux OS bug-reporting mailing list---someone showed up out of nowhere an start calling everyone involved in High-Performance Computing white elitists, and demand to know how the hiring practices at FermiLab were ensuring diversity/equity. The moderators eventually shut the discussion down (politics) and referred the instigators to human resources, but it left me shaken and a bit scared---targeted by an adversarial social justice hit-squad in what previous had been a "safe" place to donate one's time to make a free product a bit better. Everything Open Source was built via the internet and done by invisible volunteers---how then was it possible contributors were being barred based on sex or the color of their skin? Yet now, after the fait accompli (open source software is running 90% of the world's servers), when there are jobs and money involved...folks show up and start demanding their "fair share" of what they didn't build. I know...gate-keeping, historical privileged, etc. Maybe that's real, maybe it's not. Who can be a fair and impartial judge?
There's a lot of that going on right now. As viewed from one-side, all the "old boys clubs" are finally getting broken up --- sexist/racist/homophobic video gamer culture, D&D culture, comic book culture, cinema, corporate culture, you name it.
When I was a lad in school, the future prognosticators in social studies warned us that right around 2020 the US would switch from majority European/Caucasian to a plurality. So the power base is shifted and the privileged culture of the previous 250 years is loosing it grip on the reins. That's bound to be tumultuous.
Add to that the liberal Baby Boomers bolstered by their Millennial children who come down hard on the side of "tear it all down" (they really hated their parent's rules) and used to chant on the college campuses "The times they are a changin'!", and even worse "Hey hey! Ho ho! Western Civ has got to go!". Those two bulge demographics carry a lot of weight.
Honestly though, I worry for civilization-as-I've-known-it. I am biased in favor of Western Culture and Judaeo-Christian Morales. While it's easy to dig up many, many, many examples of its unfairness and abuses of power (Westerners are still humans after all), but I think its the best mankind has seen to date. In its defense I offer to the court:
- democracy -- western civ
- freedom of religion --- western civ
- freedom of speech --- western civ
- separation of church and state --- western civ
- civil rights --- western civ
The folks who are kicking in the doors of all the old boys clubs and putting all the "old white guys" up against the wall...well, it feels a bit like the land reformation in third world countries after a Communist revolution. I imagine it feels great shooting all the European-descended land owners and grabbing stuff...until the economy collapses.
Recall the Enlightenment, rationalism, and belief in the modern State gave us WWI and WWII. It all makes perfect sense in your head...until suddenly it doesn't. Someone, sensing an opportunity for personal power, takes it all a bit too far. We humans have been finding new and innovative ways to screw each other over for thousands of years...and even more ways to justify it. There is some truth to the fact that with 7 billion people, there is real competition. It's NOT a purely cooperative game. Some times it really is zero-sum. There will be winners and losers. Nature seems to favor that mechanic. Survivial of the fittest. That's the essence of Capitalism and Free Markets too.
So @Beoric: injustice is injustice...there's no denying that. I'll lend what strength I have to defend the weak. But when the tables turn (as it feels like they are doing in the US), I'll also stand against the mob who are out for blood/revenge/power. Because...injustice is injustice, no matter who is doing it. I would like to see words like color-blind and meritocracy come back into vogue. It should be possible for people to actually fail---but only when its through their own (in)actions and not because the game is rigged. When those ideas fall out of favor, watch out! But, again, who can be a fair and impartial judge? Maybe it would be best if you could only argue for a subgroup to which you have no affiliation and against one you are a part of.
I like you all well enough, even if I only agree with 30% of what you say. That other 70% is still interesting in its dementia. Talk is talk. Actions are what matters. And in the final analysis, we are all 99% full of s***. So, screw idiotic microaggressions---suck it up kiddies, and take it like a (wo)man. Real life is messy.
Also, I will miss seeing sexy lady superheroes and Martian Princesses in revealing uniforms....because that's how I was wired. As a man, I am very thankful God made woman. What is more beautiful? Sex has been over-used to titilate and sell stuff to be sure, but in moderation it has its time and place. A neutered world would be a gray, deary place I would think.
OK. Now that's out of the way---and while the political ban is still off---someone give me the straight gossip on what is going on with Patrick Stuart and the Reddit/Twit-verse? I'm clueless.
Last edited:
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Henry Kuttner wrote a short story about that, except it was an alien not a superhero.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Unfortunately that whole prediction was tainted by the whole 'one drop' rule. Many of those 'brown' people are the children of European/Caucasian couplings with non-Caucasians. Also, people underestimate the power of the culture.
But the Baby Boomers largely found religion in the 80's and 90's and became conservatives. There's a reason that OK Boomer was a popular insult among Millenials.
Honestly though, I worry for civilization-as-I've-known-it. I am biased in favor of Western Culture and Judaeo-Christian Morales. While it's easy to dig up many, many, many examples of its unfairness and abuses of power (Westerners are still humans after all), but I think its the best mankind has seen to date. In its defense I offer to the court:
It's not perfect, but it's the most evolved civilization I think the world has ever seen. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
- democracy -- western civ
- freedom of religion --- western civ
- freedom of speech --- western civ
- separation of church and state --- western civ
- civil rights --- western civ
Those are the definition of a liberal democracy. Unfortunately, a lot people in the West, on both sides of the spectrum, are starting to reject it for illiberal democracy or something worse.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
this.
- democracy -- western civ
- freedom of religion --- western civ
- freedom of speech --- western civ
- separation of church and state --- western civ
- civil rights --- western civ
The whole western world is standing in mute horror watching the US systematically dismantle each and every one of these things, giving the go-ahead to some truly unpleasant people in less fortunate nations everywhere.
I think everyone's kinda lost in the desert at the moment and hoping that a benevolent dictator will show us all the way. It's not going to happen.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Right-o Heretic. No doubt my notions of liberal and conservative...and probably just about anything else...are out-of-date.
It's been a tumultuous 20 years of 24-hour internet culture to say the least.
I will probably miss all the warning signs and it will be too late...the mob will be at my front door. All I can hope is that I'll be able stall them long enough for the women and children in my family to flee out the back.
It's been a tumultuous 20 years of 24-hour internet culture to say the least.
I will probably miss all the warning signs and it will be too late...the mob will be at my front door. All I can hope is that I'll be able stall them long enough for the women and children in my family to flee out the back.