The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Dude! What about Battlestar Galactica!!!!
The state of Post-OSR content
- Thread starter Yora
- Start date
Dude! What about Battlestar Galactica!!!!
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Squeen-o was talking about pre-Star Wars fantasy and sci-fi, therefore excluding BSG. BSG is awesome though, yes.
Yora
Should be playing D&D instead
I'm currently dabbling with a Stars Without Number campaign to take a break from my usual Sword & Sorcery B/X stuff.
As a system, it's nice. It has all the underlying mechanical framework of D&D. But it is missing the very important mechanic of XP for loot and doesn't really replace it with anything. It even mentions that as an option, but interstellar ruin looter doesn't really quite capture the essence of space exploration like medieval dungeon looter does for fantasy wilderness exploration.
(I think maintaining and improving your space ship might work as an alternative to constantly look for more wealth, but I have to look deeper into the math for that.)
As a system, it's nice. It has all the underlying mechanical framework of D&D. But it is missing the very important mechanic of XP for loot and doesn't really replace it with anything. It even mentions that as an option, but interstellar ruin looter doesn't really quite capture the essence of space exploration like medieval dungeon looter does for fantasy wilderness exploration.
(I think maintaining and improving your space ship might work as an alternative to constantly look for more wealth, but I have to look deeper into the math for that.)
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
James M. at GROGNARDIA is a big Stars Without Number fan. Maybe shoot him an email? He's always replied to mine. He might even post his response.
Avi
*eyeroll*
"Thunderbirds are go" - "Captain Scarlet"...
Two orcs
Officially better than you, according to PoN
A mid-point between Star Trek and D&D would be Space Viking. You might loot a world, but the real riches lie in re-introducing technology and re-establishing trade to lost worlds.
Johann
*eyeroll*
I agree 100% regarding the Star Wars movies. I also envy you, as you apparently stopped watching after Ep. 7. I want my $30 and four hours of my life back for Ep. 8+9.
I agree that Padme is awesome in episode I and awful in episodes II and III, but note: she's not ten years older. The character is fourteen years old in episode I, making her five years older than nine-year-old Anakin, and even the actress would have been about sixteen during principal photography, in 1997. It speaks to her gravitas that you thought she was older than she actually is.
Seriously, you can see where Leia gets her moxie. I love episode I Padme, she's terrific.
P.S. Giving credit where credit is due, in episode II Padme still displays moxie when it comes to everything that doesn't involve romance, including surviving two assassination attempts and rushing to Obi Wan's aid when he is captured. She's not totally brain-dead, just selectively.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
From the dialog and performances I assumed he was quite a bit younger and she was quite a bit older; I actually assumed she was at least 19 or early 20s when I watched the film. Frankly, for these purposes their apparent ages according to the performances is more important than notes in other media, or even throwaway mentions in the film that nobody catches.
Of course the film never got a re-watch from me, so these are my impressions from 23 years ago.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Lots of folks make some bad decisions when it involves matters of the heart.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
This is true. However the love story/bad decisions in AotC wasn't organic enough to be believable. Compare that movie to the love story between Han and Leia in the Empire Strikes Back. When you see Leia in the carbonite scenes her reaction is believable.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Yup, they didn't earn it. If you want to tell a story where some unusual relationship is critical, like the babysitter falling for her former charge, you need to spend some time convincing the audience that this is plausible for these characters in these circumstances. It is a classic show don't tell issue.
This contrasts with the problem with telling the story of how the hero is slowly corrupted. The prequels did try to show this, just not in a convincing manner. Since the story of Anakin's fall to the dark side is arguably the point of the whole trilogy, IMO the entire trilogy is a failure as a result.
Interesting! That must be why I have a different reaction to the prequel trilogy than you do: I think Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is sort of an almost-incidental detail that's mostly followed up in the sequel trilogy. The prequel trilogy is more about the Fall of the Roman^H^H^H^H^H Galactic Republic. Darth Sidious is basically the main character, and his takeover of the Republic is eminently believable.
If Anakin had not fallen, it is possible that Mace Windu would have ended Palpatine right then and there at his moment of almost-triumph, but it's not certain. (And if Anakin hadn't been close to falling, Palpatine might have made other arrangements.)
Anakin doesn't become truly important to big-picture events until Episode V or maybe even VI. (Unless you want to blame his Episode I heroics for Palpatine's elevation to Chancellor, but I give the credit for that one to Palpatine himself.)
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I agree that the takeover of the Republic is one of the more plausible elements, but its the Skywalker Saga, not the Sidious Saga.
Johann
*eyeroll*
The plot of Ep. 2-3 is actually decent, at least in terms of its ambition and general outline. Not just a reboot in disguise, but taking it to the next level (political, urban etc.). It took Ep. 7-9 for me to appreciate that. 
That said, almost everything else is execrable. I'd be game for a reboot of Ep. 1-6 and I guess we'll eventually get one. But fire everyone responsible for Ep. 7-9 first.
That said, almost everything else is execrable. I'd be game for a reboot of Ep. 1-6 and I guess we'll eventually get one. But fire everyone responsible for Ep. 7-9 first.
Johann
*eyeroll*
I like this angle. Even a slightly more critical portrayal of the Jedi Order would have been a perfect fit (Yoda's arrogance, Qui Gon Jinn's defiance, Mace Windu's lack of faith in law and order etc.).
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I always go back to Lucas' original explaination of why he started on Episode 4 (given at the time of the Original Star Wars release)---"because that's where most of the action is". Episodes 1-3 were always intended to be more Macheavelian---perhaps if he had stayed true solely to that conviction and didn't try to "blockbuster-them-up", time would be kinder (even if the 1990's audiences would have screamed bloody murder). Compromises are rarely exceptional.
Nevertheless. There were some huge breakthroughs in CGI on those movies, and some spectacular vistas and great saber duels. I am ultimately glad he made the effort to tell some unconventional stories---certainly he didn't have to, it could easily have been more cartoons. Seeing how Disney has generally diluted things, I have great respect for Lucas, his vision, and how it has affected us all.
Nevertheless. There were some huge breakthroughs in CGI on those movies, and some spectacular vistas and great saber duels. I am ultimately glad he made the effort to tell some unconventional stories---certainly he didn't have to, it could easily have been more cartoons. Seeing how Disney has generally diluted things, I have great respect for Lucas, his vision, and how it has affected us all.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Oh, the Jedi Order is a trash organization with a trash philosophy. Given that it was a paramilitary elite organization composed of individuals who have no connection to the larger community, it was a fluke that Palpatine had his coup before the Jedi decided the Senate was corrupt and needed to be replaced. But then I find a lot of the political characterizations in Star Wars to be lacking. I think it is telling that George Lucas once said if he could figure out a way to work without actors he would; I don't think he has a very nuanced understanding of humans and their motivations.
Also, in most Star Wars properties you would be hard pressed to find a reason why anyone other then the senatorial class was better off under the Republic than under the Empire. Certainly there are organic and nonorganic slaves in both societies. I think the first I saw of actual oppression by the empire was SW: Rebels.
On the other hand, Obi-wan Kenobi is laying the oppression on pretty thick, and is a start contrast from earlier stories. Although I'm not sure it is really an improvement that Leia is now particularly kind to her droid slaves and pets; it just highlights the fact that everyone else isn't, and its not like she is freeing them or anything.
Basically its hard to find anyone in Star Wars who stands for anything I really care about. That may be why I like Rogue One so much; those folks believed in what they were fighting for. I can get behind a story about duty and sacrifice far more easily than a story where the magical good force in the universe wants you to have no emotions, and things like love and connection to family are a path to the dark side. Rebels' fresh look at what it meant to connect to the Force was a great improvement, I thought.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Still thinking about this. The Jedi are taken from their parents as children and raised to not have personal connections, and to believe their philosophy is inherently good. That would be fine if they were a secluded and contemplative order, but they are a militant order that acts as advisors to politicians who appear to be morally, physically and mystically inferior to them. It is hard for me to accept that would not eventually lead to them asserting a lot of power and influence over the people they advise, and trying to guide policy as they saw fit. Guidance which would inevitably lead to problems in governance, because they can have no understanding of the lives of ordinary people, or respect for their frailties. And then the Jedi would blame the failures on the ineptness of the politicians, and the whole thing would spiral until the Jedi concluded that nobody was competent to run things except them.
I also think that upbringing and philosophy, in an order that is out in the world as opposed to being cloistered, would produce an awful lot of closet sith, which would likely accelerate the process.
I dunno, given the elements in play, I just feel like galactic history would have progressed differently. It follows a Roman model, but I think the introduction of Jedi into the mix means the model does not really apply. I think some sort of militant theocratic junta would be more likely to form than a civilian dictatorship.
Also, it is pretty clear that the word "empire" is being used incorrectly. The Republic was also an empire, just like republican Rome was an empire.
I also think that upbringing and philosophy, in an order that is out in the world as opposed to being cloistered, would produce an awful lot of closet sith, which would likely accelerate the process.
I dunno, given the elements in play, I just feel like galactic history would have progressed differently. It follows a Roman model, but I think the introduction of Jedi into the mix means the model does not really apply. I think some sort of militant theocratic junta would be more likely to form than a civilian dictatorship.
Also, it is pretty clear that the word "empire" is being used incorrectly. The Republic was also an empire, just like republican Rome was an empire.