The state of Post-OSR content

[The Heretic]

Lots of folks make some bad decisions when it involves matters of the heart.

This is true. However the love story/bad decisions in AotC wasn't organic enough to be believable. Compare that movie to the love story between Han and Leia in the Empire Strikes Back. When you see Leia in the carbonite scenes her reaction is believable.

 

[squeen]

You may be The Heretic, but you speak Truth.

 

[Beoric]

This is true. However the love story/bad decisions in AotC wasn't organic enough to be believable. Compare that movie to the love story between Han and Leia in the Empire Strikes Back. When you see Leia in the carbonite scenes her reaction is believable.

Yup, they didn't earn it. If you want to tell a story where some unusual relationship is critical, like the babysitter falling for her former charge, you need to spend some time convincing the audience that this is plausible for these characters in these circumstances. It is a classic show don't tell issue.

This contrasts with the problem with telling the story of how the hero is slowly corrupted. The prequels did try to show this, just not in a convincing manner. Since the story of Anakin's fall to the dark side is arguably the point of the whole trilogy, IMO the entire trilogy is a failure as a result.

 

[Hemlock]

Yup, they didn't earn it. If you want to tell a story where some unusual relationship is critical, like the babysitter falling for her former charge, you need to spend some time convincing the audience that this is plausible for these characters in these circumstances. It is a classic show don't tell issue.

This contrasts with the problem with telling the story of how the hero is slowly corrupted. The prequels did try to show this, just not in a convincing manner. Since the story of Anakin's fall to the dark side is arguably the point of the whole trilogy, IMO the entire trilogy is a failure as a result.

Interesting! That must be why I have a different reaction to the prequel trilogy than you do: I think Anakin's fall to the Dark Side is sort of an almost-incidental detail that's mostly followed up in the sequel trilogy. The prequel trilogy is more about the Fall of the Roman^H^H^H^H^H Galactic Republic. Darth Sidious is basically the main character, and his takeover of the Republic is eminently believable.

If Anakin had not fallen, it is possible that Mace Windu would have ended Palpatine right then and there at his moment of almost-triumph, but it's not certain. (And if Anakin hadn't been close to falling, Palpatine might have made other arrangements.)

Anakin doesn't become truly important to big-picture events until Episode V or maybe even VI. (Unless you want to blame his Episode I heroics for Palpatine's elevation to Chancellor, but I give the credit for that one to Palpatine himself.)

 

[Beoric]

Darth Sidious is basically the main character, and his takeover of the Republic is eminently believable.

I agree that the takeover of the Republic is one of the more plausible elements, but its the Skywalker Saga, not the Sidious Saga.

 

[Johann]

The plot of Ep. 2-3 is actually decent, at least in terms of its ambition and general outline. Not just a reboot in disguise, but taking it to the next level (political, urban etc.). It took Ep. 7-9 for me to appreciate that. That said, almost everything else is execrable. I'd be game for a reboot of Ep. 1-6 and I guess we'll eventually get one. But fire everyone responsible for Ep. 7-9 first.

 

[Johann]

The prequel trilogy is more about the Fall of the Roman^H^H^H^H^H Galactic Republic. Darth Sidious is basically the main character, and his takeover of the Republic is eminently believable.

I like this angle. Even a slightly more critical portrayal of the Jedi Order would have been a perfect fit (Yoda's arrogance, Qui Gon Jinn's defiance, Mace Windu's lack of faith in law and order etc.).

 

[squeen]

I always go back to Lucas' original explaination of why he started on Episode 4 (given at the time of the Original Star Wars release)---"because that's where most of the action is". Episodes 1-3 were always intended to be more Macheavelian---perhaps if he had stayed true solely to that conviction and didn't try to "blockbuster-them-up", time would be kinder (even if the 1990's audiences would have screamed bloody murder). Compromises are rarely exceptional.

Nevertheless. There were some huge breakthroughs in CGI on those movies, and some spectacular vistas and great saber duels. I am ultimately glad he made the effort to tell some unconventional stories---certainly he didn't have to, it could easily have been more cartoons. Seeing how Disney has generally diluted things, I have great respect for Lucas, his vision, and how it has affected us all.

 

[Beoric]

I like this angle. Even a slightly more critical portrayal of the Jedi Order would have been a perfect fit (Yoda's arrogance, Qui Gon Jinn's defiance, Mace Windu's lack of faith in law and order etc.).

Oh, the Jedi Order is a trash organization with a trash philosophy. Given that it was a paramilitary elite organization composed of individuals who have no connection to the larger community, it was a fluke that Palpatine had his coup before the Jedi decided the Senate was corrupt and needed to be replaced. But then I find a lot of the political characterizations in Star Wars to be lacking. I think it is telling that George Lucas once said if he could figure out a way to work without actors he would; I don't think he has a very nuanced understanding of humans and their motivations.

Also, in most Star Wars properties you would be hard pressed to find a reason why anyone other then the senatorial class was better off under the Republic than under the Empire. Certainly there are organic and nonorganic slaves in both societies. I think the first I saw of actual oppression by the empire was SW: Rebels.

On the other hand, Obi-wan Kenobi is laying the oppression on pretty thick, and is a start contrast from earlier stories. Although I'm not sure it is really an improvement that Leia is now particularly kind to her droid slaves and pets; it just highlights the fact that everyone else isn't, and its not like she is freeing them or anything.

Basically its hard to find anyone in Star Wars who stands for anything I really care about. That may be why I like Rogue One so much; those folks believed in what they were fighting for. I can get behind a story about duty and sacrifice far more easily than a story where the magical good force in the universe wants you to have no emotions, and things like love and connection to family are a path to the dark side. Rebels' fresh look at what it meant to connect to the Force was a great improvement, I thought.

 

[Beoric]

Still thinking about this. The Jedi are taken from their parents as children and raised to not have personal connections, and to believe their philosophy is inherently good. That would be fine if they were a secluded and contemplative order, but they are a militant order that acts as advisors to politicians who appear to be morally, physically and mystically inferior to them. It is hard for me to accept that would not eventually lead to them asserting a lot of power and influence over the people they advise, and trying to guide policy as they saw fit. Guidance which would inevitably lead to problems in governance, because they can have no understanding of the lives of ordinary people, or respect for their frailties. And then the Jedi would blame the failures on the ineptness of the politicians, and the whole thing would spiral until the Jedi concluded that nobody was competent to run things except them.

I also think that upbringing and philosophy, in an order that is out in the world as opposed to being cloistered, would produce an awful lot of closet sith, which would likely accelerate the process.

I dunno, given the elements in play, I just feel like galactic history would have progressed differently. It follows a Roman model, but I think the introduction of Jedi into the mix means the model does not really apply. I think some sort of militant theocratic junta would be more likely to form than a civilian dictatorship.

Also, it is pretty clear that the word "empire" is being used incorrectly. The Republic was also an empire, just like republican Rome was an empire.

 

[Two orcs]

The Jedi are partly based on Dune's Bene Gesserit and since Frank Herbert is a more thoughtful writer he allows the natural conclusion to play out: They pull the strings of the entire galaxy insisting to themselves they are wiser and more moral than everyone, then their hubris produces a monster and they don't really learn a thing before being wiped out much further in the future.

 

[Hemlock]

I think the first I saw of actual oppression by the empire was SW: Rebels.

For me, the first I saw was when Tarkin killed everybody living on the planet Alderaan.

Oh, the Jedi Order is a trash organization with a trash philosophy... I can get behind a story about duty and sacrifice far more easily than a story where the magical good force in the universe wants you to have no emotions, and things like love and connection to family are a path to the dark side.

I'm just gonna leave this here.


Darth Vader: So! You have a twin sister. Your feelings for her... wait, WHAT? Oh, wow. That's messed up. And you didn't... Son, you have issues, and I feel responsible. We need to talk. [sheathes lightsaber] Why don't we go have some ice cream and talk this out?

Luke: [comes out of the shadows after a moment] Okay. You know, Yoda never wanted to discuss this with me. He just said to bury my feelings.

Darth Vader: Well, Yoda gives bad relationship advice. I should know. You can't blame him though, he's been a bachelor for almost a thousand years--that's bound to give you a skewed perspective.

Luke: *Was* a bachelor. Yoda's dead now actually.

Darth Vader: What? No! When did this happen? [exeunt]

Emperor Palpatine: ...guys? Guys? Where's my fight scene?

 

[squeen]

Basically its hard to find anyone in Star Wars who stands for anything I really care about. That may be why I like Rogue One so much...

So Beoric hates classic D&D AND Star Wars?!

 

[Beoric]

So Beoric hates classic D&D AND Star Wars?!

The "like" button really needs an eyeroll option.

Don't forget that fact that I don't think the Bombadil episode adds to the story means I "hate" Lord of the Rings, too. By your logic, the fact that you don't like "candy classes" means that you hate AD&D and you hate Gary Gygax.

 

[The Heretic]

Still thinking about this. The Jedi are taken from their parents as children and raised to not have personal connections, and to believe their philosophy is inherently good. That would be fine if they were a secluded and contemplative order, but they are a militant order that acts as advisors to politicians who appear to be morally, physically and mystically inferior to them. It is hard for me to accept that would not eventually lead to them asserting a lot of power and influence over the people they advise, and trying to guide policy as they saw fit. Guidance which would inevitably lead to problems in governance, because they can have no understanding of the lives of ordinary people, or respect for their frailties. And then the Jedi would blame the failures on the ineptness of the politicians, and the whole thing would spiral until the Jedi concluded that nobody was competent to run things except them.

So you're saying that the Jedi Order was the Roman Catholic Church of the Galactic Republic. Spot on.

 

[squeen]

The "like" button really needs an eyeroll option.

Don't forget that fact that I don't think the Bombadil episode adds to the story means I "hate" Lord of the Rings, too. By your logic, the fact that you don't like "candy classes" means that you hate AD&D and you hate Gary Gygax.

FWIW, I don't think think you hate everything about classic D&D---although EGG is not one of your favorite writers, I'd guess. The Star Wars admission did catch me by surprise, I'll admit.

Bombadil is more of a personality litmus-test, which is why I mentally place you in the "staid" category. That's no crime. I've actually been thinking about this in the context of Prince's Zock Block podcast interview. There's (IMO) something very "direct" (treading lightly here!) about the vibe of Heavy Metal music---Prince's favorite/only genre of choice. Things like Bombadil, and the diversionary nature of that side-jaunt, may bother him for that reason. A "staid" fellow (like yourself?) might also find that kind of whimsy tiresome. In contrast, I enjoy whimsy (Winnie the Pooh, Wind in the Willows, The Hobbit, etc.) and feel that things like the quasi-mono-emotional, steady push-towards-a-goal (akin to Heavy Metal's adrenaline-rush), lacks nuance---the full dynamic range of tension and release. It's difficult to be surprised in a one-note/one-volume world. I've actually mentioned this to Prince a few times in the context of adventure design. In play, I believe there needs to be some paths that lead to the Bombadils of the world, because those hidden non-sequitars feel less contrived than a linear plot born from the human mind, and more natural.

So you're saying that the Jedi Order was the Roman Catholic Church of the Galactic Republic. Spot on.

Oh...you people...sod off with pouring bile on simple beautiful things. Must we always tear down what came before? Must darkness taint all memories? Can anything that's not currently "trending" be good? What did the past ever do to you? Barbarism.

 

[Malrex]

I think....all of you need to go on a long hike...

 

[squeen]

I think....all of you need to go on a long hike...

Last week was a family camping. Wonderful. I drew trees.

 

[Grützi]

Yeah, the Jedi order as shown in the movies only... is kinda problematic in many, many ways.

They are basically a pseudo-religious-elite-professional-military-structure that is nearly completely uprooted from the surrounding society.
Yet they still "serve" the interests of that society in very ill defined ways.
They seem to have special privileges in the way they are treated before the law and even have some privilege in enforcing or interpreting the law.

The order itself hasn't got the internal hierachy and structure to support itself in some major ways:
1. For a organization of the orders size it's internal hierarchy/internal structure is hilariously basic, lacking and ill defined.
2. There seems to be no mechanism to solve problems that arise from within the order except for exile (by order of the council or self exile (count dooku))

Even hierachical contact to the outside world is really ill defined... like the jedi serve the republic... and that's it?
So the chancelor "may" give them orders? or are they merely suggestions?
If they are a military there needs to be a clear structure of "who can tell who else to do stuff"... it seems to work on the assumption, that the jedi will somehow do the right thing in the end.

 

[Hemlock]

FWIW, I don't think think you hate everything about classic D&D---although EGG is not one of your favorite writers, I'd guess.

I know I'm new here but this conversation feels familiar. I think I've seen someone tell Beoric before that he doesn't like Gygax, and Beoric responded that he agrees with Gygax sometimes but tends to respond with "like" when he agrees and a post when he disagrees, giving the (false) impression that he doesn't like Gygax.

@Beoric am I approximately correct about your feelings on Gygax?

So you're saying that the Jedi Order was the Roman Catholic Church of the Galactic Republic. Spot on.

Hmmm. Are you suggesting that George Lucas was drawing a deliberate parallel? If so, there's enough similarity (especially the celibacy requirement but also the number twelve, the wide range of roles played by Jedi, and the monk-ish wardrobe) that I suspect you may be right.

For the record, the fact that Episode I Jedi are clearly more superspies than super-soldiers is one of the things I like best about Episode I. Qui-gon is apparently the only Jedi who is smart enough to run and hide when faced with a superior force, and then come back much later when he has force superiority. I love Qui-gon.