The state of Post-OSR content

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Oh...you people...sod off with pouring bile on simple beautiful things. Must we always tear down what came before? Must darkness taint all memories? Can anything that's not currently "trending" be good? What did the past ever do to you? Barbarism.
Lol, what are you talking about? There's that quote, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions". And there's also the reason why the West has decided to go secular. The world of politics is dirty. It requires moral ambiguity and compromises. Mixing religion and politics leads to the degradation of both. The Jedi Order would be tempted to intervene and become more political, and it would be bad for both them and the Republic.

(besides, I need to earn my Heretical name, do I not?)

As for "must darkness taint all memories"? The past was destroyed when Lucas decided to film the prequels. He would've been better off leaving it as it was.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Hmmm. Are you suggesting that George Lucas was drawing a deliberate parallel? If so, there's enough similarity (especially the celibacy requirement but also the number twelve, the wide range of roles played by Jedi, and the monk-ish wardrobe) that I suspect you may be right.

For the record, the fact that Episode I Jedi are clearly more superspies than super-soldiers is one of the things I like best about Episode I. Qui-gon is apparently the only Jedi who is smart enough to run and hide when faced with a superior force, and then come back much later when he has force superiority. I love Qui-gon.
Possibly? Hasn't he said that he was mixing Eastern and Western spirituality together when he came up with the Force? And don't forget the 'virgin birth' of Anakin!

What about that bit with the fish guys (sorry, haven't watched the Phantom Menace in years) at the beginning, where they worry that the Jedi are there to use their force powers to force a peace treaty? That's very morally dubious. Were the fishies exaggerating or was that something that the Jedi would actually do?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I think the Jedi were patterned after samuri, but the Knights Templar might be the closest Western equivalent.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Bombadil is more of a personality litmus-test, which is why I mentally place you in the "staid" category. That's no crime. I've actually been thinking about this in the context of Prince's Zock Block podcast interview. There's (IMO) something very "direct" (treading lightly here!) about the vibe of Heavy Metal music---Prince's favorite/only genre of choice. Things like Bombadil, and the diversionary nature of that side-jaunt, may bother him for that reason. A "staid" fellow (like yourself?) might also find that kind of whimsy tiresome. In contrast, I enjoy whimsy (Winnie the Pooh, Wind in the Willows, The Hobbit, etc.) and feel that things like the quasi-mono-emotional, steady push-towards-a-goal (akin to Heavy Metal's adrenaline-rush), lacks nuance---the full dynamic range of tension and release. It's difficult to be surprised in a one-note/one-volume world. I've actually mentioned this to Prince a few times in the context of adventure design. In play, I believe there needs to be some paths that lead to the Bombadils of the world, because those hidden non-sequitars feel less contrived than a linear plot born from the human mind, and more natural.
I don't object to the Bombadil segment as a self-contained story. It is merely not relevant to the progression of the story being told by LotR, except insofar as it overlapped with Merry picking up a magic weapon on the Barrow Downs. If it had been in a collection of short stories I would have been fine with it. It isn't a "whimsy" thing, its a "story structure" thing.

I know I'm new here but this conversation feels familiar. I think I've seen someone tell Beoric before that he doesn't like Gygax, and Beoric responded that he agrees with Gygax sometimes but tends to respond with "like" when he agrees and a post when he disagrees, giving the (false) impression that he doesn't like Gygax.

@Beoric am I approximately correct about your feelings on Gygax?
Yes, that would have been Squeen telling me I don't like Gygax. In reference to Gygax' work, I think on balance the work he did in the 70s was good, and the work thereafter was more hit and miss. Because it was (with Arneson) first, it can't be expected to be perfect; there are things that can be improved upon, and it is worth talking about those things. That isn't a dig on Gygax, it is what I would reasonably expected of anyone doing something for the first time. But if I, for instance, say that Hommlet includes a lot of detail that won't add much to most campaigns, and that space would have been better used fleshing out some of the major NPCs, somebody takes that as me hating Gygax' work.

In terms of Gygax as a human being, I think he was a bit of a dick who partially redeemed himself later in life.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I don't object to the Bombadil segment as a self-contained story. It is merely not relevant to the progression of the story being told by LotR, except insofar as it overlapped with Merry picking up a magic weapon on the Barrow Downs. If it had been in a collection of short stories I would have been fine with it. It isn't a "whimsy" thing, its a "story structure" thing.
Someone made the case that Tom Bombadil is meant to be a metaphor for the (young) reader. The story is going to get scary, but you are Tom Bombadil, you have power over the story. Oh, that was a horrible way of explaining it. Let me see if I can find it.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Someone made the case that Tom Bombadil is meant to be a metaphor for the (young) reader. The story is going to get scary, but you are Tom Bombadil, you have power over the story. Oh, that was a horrible way of explaining it. Let me see if I can find it.
Maybe. I first read it when I was 10, and I can't say that I identified with Bombadil in that way, but maybe others do.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I don't object to the Bombadil segment as a self-contained story. It is merely not relevant to the progression of the story being told by LotR, except insofar as it overlapped with Merry picking up a magic weapon on the Barrow Downs. If it had been in a collection of short stories I would have been fine with it. It isn't a "whimsy" thing, its a "story structure" thing.
Having patience with non-linear tangents that are not essential to a plot but establish character is exactly what I mean. All the parts that Jackson cut (i.e. the abbreviated exit from the Shire to Rivendale) sacrificed ambience and character development for plot.

You are calling plot "structure"...but it's really the same thing in this case. Bombadil etc. were essential for establishing the characters of the hobbit prior to the introduction of other, more worldly guides. My essential is your distraction.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Maybe. I first read it when I was 10, and I can't say that I identified with Bombadil in that way, but maybe others do.
Yeah, I read it when I was 11. I remember Bombadil absolutely nuking the pace of the story. It was such a jarring break. I remember going a page and then stumbling on a few more pages, and then hitting the fucking poetry at which point I started flipping forward looking for the character arcs I was actually invested in and feeling utterly discouraged by the shear length of the interlude. I think I skimmed through the rest of it. It was awful.

And I friggin LOVE 'Wind in the Willows'! I'm reading it to my kids right now. Those lush, green descriptions. So relaxing and delicious. The 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' chapter; #chills.

There's (IMO) something very "direct" (treading lightly here!) about the vibe of Heavy Metal music
I don't see any offence in this comment, but I am concerned that you're experience of the genre may be limited. I hope you're not conflating it with your old punk days. A surprising percent of heavy metal fans are high-functioning individuals due in part to many of its sub-genres' roots in classical music. Talk to some of the people you associate with right here in the forums and you may find that there is, indeed, a heavy metal that's right for you! Symphonic 'Holywood' Power Metal, or Melodic Death Metal with their progressive rhythms and complex, layered melodies for example...
 

Johann

*eyeroll*
When my grandma came into my room, I'd ask "Granny, should I turn down the music?". She'd always go "What music? The only thing I can hear is a loud buzzing noise..."
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I don't see any offence in this comment, but I am concerned that you're experience of the genre may be limited.
I am basing it off of the album Crest of Knave by Jethro Tull (not related to the #BrOSR Jeffro, BTW) that won the Grammy in 1989 for Heavy Metal Album of the Year, beating out another band with the dismally unimaginative name of Metallica. (Am I right? WTF? Metal-lica? Speak English much in Denmark dudes?)

I also justify my ignorant over-simplification based on the fact that I once inadvertently had big hair while trying to pull off the Seattle Grunge look.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Jethro Tull deserved that grammy, but not for Crest of a Knave.

Squeen listened to grunge? I always pictured Squeen as that milquetoast in the "Cradle of Love" video by Billy Idol.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Speaking of heavy metal, Metallica's Master of Puppets was a bit intense for a thirteen year old. I listened to it non-stop one summer (play "The Thing That Should Not Be", turn it over and rewind a little bit, then play "Leper Messiah", repeat). In fact when I was visiting my relatives in Wisconsin that summer with my walkmen I started to freak out when James Hetfield's voice got deeper and deeper. "Ohnoes! Satan has FOUND me!" I switched to a tape that had Stryper on it and then played it for my grandmother, asking her what was wrong with my music. "Oh, heheh, you're battery is dying." PHEW!
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Jethro Tull deserved that grammy, but not for Crest of a Knave.

Squeen listened to grunge? I always pictured Squeen as that milquetoast in the "Cradle of Love" video by Billy Idol.
When I was only about 5 or 6 my (much older) siblings took me to a record store with them. I bought Sgt. Pepper's with my allowance money. The hippie behind the counter said to me "Great album, man!" which traumatized me so thoroughly I remember it to this day. This was the early 70's, so the Beatles had recently broke up---which led to a life-long obsession with the conundrum of "Why do good things end?". (A light bulb should be going off in your head right about now...:))

In High School, I fell in with the suburban punks (Clash, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys, etc.) That's when I started learning to play guitar. Still, I was all Zeppelin, Floyd, Yes, King Crimson, etc. at heart.---a D&D-playing, classic rock nerd among the faux-punks.

In college, I was all over the place with music. No internet yet, so discovering all the "Alternative Rock" of the late 80's and early 90's felt like treasure hunting. Metal had been commercialized by then and was looking pretty ludicrous. New Wave synthesizer and drum-machine stuff was lustily disparaged--but so was Journey, Foreigner and Motley Crew. (Yes, I've always been this judgemental.)

After college it started playing DC clubs with a metal-ish/punk band (Fugazi, Beastie Boys, etc.). Our lead singer was a large black guy with dread locks---he could only come across as "marginally angry" in his performance without scaring the white-folk...so we sort of drifted/merged with the emergent Grunge scene and played songs like our 12-minute "Pirate Ken" with a hard-edge guitar driven refrain contrasted with reggae and ridiculously "metal" :devilish: pirate lyrics---it was a our secret weapon to win audiences over. My band mates (one of whom usually wore fishnet-stockings and a pink tutu on stage) used to tease me as follows:

Band: "Hey man, did you see that girl in the audience? She was asking about you?"
Me: "Really? (gulp) What did she say?"
Band: "She wanted to know why we hired an Accountant to play guitar for the band."

That's when I grew my long hair.

I did eventually get kicked out of the band because I wouldn't quit my aerospace engineering job to go on tour with them up and down the East Coast. Looking back, it was a good call. I once got to sit in the pilot seat of the Space Shuttle Endeavor during a private tour while it underwent repairs at KSC---closest I ever came to touching the stars. Did you know the Pilot never gets to steer---the Commander always claims that privileged?

You might (or might not) be surprised that I am a big Radiohead fan. Pearl Jam (once-upon-a-time) and Alice in Chains too. Vangelis, Walter/Wendy Carlos. The list goes on. Lately though, it's striped down folk music that feels best---simple, raw, earnest, talent...without a lot of production.

Jazz, however, can kiss my ass.
(well...mostly---some 70's fusion is good. Some 60's hot jazz like Miles Davis is alright too...heck, I'm a music whore.)

No matter what the genre, I think my shit-detector has been proven by the test-of-time to be pretty solid. I can generally spot an unimaginative, frat-band/jock-rock/boy-band soon-to-be-forgotten sell-out/wannabe in three bars or less. (Looking at you WotC!)
 
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The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
When I was only about 5 or 6 my (much older) siblings took me to a record store with them. I bought Sgt. Pepper's with my allowance money. The hippie behind the counter said to me "Great album, man!" which traumatized me so thoroughly I remember it to this day. This was the early 70's, so the Beatles had recently broke up---which led to a life-long obsession with the conundrum of "Why do good things end?". (A light bulb should be going off in your head right about now...:))
When I was four one of my older sisters went to a record store to buy the BeeGees greatest hits. I remember saying "The BeeGees are the new Beatles!", I don't know why. Granted there was a lot of irony in that, since I didn't know that the BeeGees first made a name for themselves as soft rock Beatles clones.

In High School, I fell in with the suburban punks (Clash, Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys, etc.) <creative editing> No matter what the genre, I think my shit-detector has been proven by the test-of-time to be pretty solid.
You do know that the Clash and the Sex Pistols were fakes, right? Both were prefab.

That's when I started learning to play guitar. Still, I was all Zeppelin, Floyd, Yes, King Crimson, etc. at heart.---a D&D-playing, classic rock nerd among the faux-punks.
In the mid-80s Mtv had a Led Zeppelin weekend in honor of Robert Plant releasing a new album. "Hey, these guys have long hair, they should be good." <"Rain Song" video plays> "What the fuck!?! This is soft rock bullshit. Led Zeppelin sucks!"

I realized my error years later in 9th grade. I eventually found prog rock (Yes, King Crimson, ELP). Prog is awesome.

Band: "Hey man, did you see that girl in the audience? She was asking about you?"
Me: "Really? (gulp) What did she say?"
Band: "She wanted to know why we hired an Accountant to play guitar for the band."
While the rest of your story seems like a tall tale, this part rings true.

That's when I grew my long hair.
Long hair you say?

Long hair you say.jpg
 
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