The state of Post-OSR content

[Pseudoephedrine]

He was also an important collaborator with Hickman on the Dragonlance series. Given the chance, he jumped to write Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance tie-in fiction and does not seem to have produced much significant game material since making the change.

 

[Palindromedary]

@Yora, who you may recall started this thread, had a link on his most recent blog post to a series that deals with some of the issues we have been discussing here. First post is here, you might want to look in particular at footnote no. 2.

This is the first time I've had the pleasure of having my own blog referenced at me: I'll treasure this. I'm glad people are finding the material interesting; it's been a lot of fun digging around and setting it all out.

No, I don't have links. The only ones that would have links are OSR-blogger interviews from several years ago (dragon mag columns wouldn't), and I wasn't bookmarking those pages for later citation. Just my recollections.

Oh, I absolutely believe it (and appreciate the further link). The idea of finding a central statement of what you initially said intrigued me specifically because I hoped to edit it into that first post in the series as further evidence of the sea-change occurring in that period. I've been adding little extra bits to the already-posted parts of the series here and there as I find fresh material.

 

[EOTB]

Wait - you're Yora? Did you open a new account? Not protesting, just threw me for a loop.

This isn't 81-82, but another example (from later, admittedly) was Barbara Young. She had a running editors column in Dungeon mag and often discussed her background and also why she threw all those clunky archaic dungeons people kept sending into the trash bin. She wasn't shy about making clear if your adventure didn't tell a story and also stood alone as good reading material (explicitly admitting most of their readers by that time never played these things anyway) it had next to zero chance of getting her blessing.

I remember it because it was overt, where TSR prior to that point had always implied the shift was just organic (and that you must be the last neanderthal standing, if you didn't like it.)

Edit - if you have access, check the 1989-1993 era...I think I'd stopped buying Dungeon by 93, and I can't remember exactly in the late 80s where she took over the editors role from Moore.

 

[Palindromedary]

Wait - you're Yora? Did you open a new account? Not protesting, just threw me for a loop.

No, not Yora: I was confused when you referenced it as "Yora's post", but now I get it. What happened is that Yora made a post on their blog containing a link to my blog (and which Beoric also linked to), Simulacrum.

This isn't 81-82, but another example (from later, admittedly) was Barbara Young. She had a running editors column in Dungeon mag and often discussed her background and also why she threw all those clunky archaic dungeons people kept sending into the trash bin. She wasn't shy about making clear if your adventure didn't tell a story and also stood alone as good reading material (explicitly admitting most of their readers by that time never played these things anyway) it had next to zero chance of getting her blessing.

I remember it because it was overt, where TSR prior to that point had always implied the shift was just organic (and that you must be the last neanderthal standing, if you didn't like it.)

The Barbara Young example is a great one. I've held her published mention of "many of our readers just buy our adventures to read rather than ever running them" in the back of my mind as a major example for quite a while: my only issue is that I'm not sure of what--how to frame the wider phenomena. I know it's a thing that also exists in the Pathfinder era, where their major devs have mentioned that their marketing data indicated the same thing about their adventure path sales. It's also interesting because while there's obvious high-level selection pressures thus happening at Dungeon in the form you mentioned (toss out submitted dungeons), there's also the sense that Dungeon readers wouldn't want them anyways because they're not fun to read. The real question as I see it is to what extent was the Dungeon readership representative of the D&D playerbase in that period? Dungeon was popular, so that's a pretty large sample base, but it's still rather filtered in some ways.

All something for a future post, I suspect.

 

[EOTB]

there's also the sense that Dungeon readers wouldn't want them anyways because they're not fun to read. The real question as I see it is to what extent was the Dungeon readership representative of the D&D playerbase in that period? Dungeon was popular, so that's a pretty large sample base, but it's still rather filtered in some ways.

I've often said there are two different activities happening that both use the same tool. I don't doubt they would have been flooded with lots of upset readers if they went heavy publishing dungeons. And yet, they admit they kept getting them as submissions thrown out, while having to go back to the same well of 8-10 "reader-adventure authors" again and again and again and again and again.

 

[Palindromedary]

I've often said there are two different activities happening that both use the same tool.

It's unfortunate that TSR became infamous for their lack of marketing data: I wish they had a sense of their playerbase like Strategy & Tactics did back in the day, because I'd love to know how many old-school vs new-school players there were in that 1985-1990 period, whether or not it was primarily a case of the game left them or they left the game. Inevitably old-schoolers become a minority of course, which is to be expected if the company selling the game isn't promoting that style any longer: old players age out, and new players come in and pick up the newer, actually supported style unless absorbed into an old-school group. But the precise numbers and times are all guesswork.

 

[EOTB]

100% agree. Of course, there's the old saying "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

If you liked adventures-as-reading-material, and you wanted to write adventures-as-reading-material, and people who liked adventures-as-reading-material would buy more items per year to read than "old school" DMs would buy to run - would you really care all that much to learn you were making more $/per person/per year from a smaller absolute number of people? You didn't want to write that clunky old dungeon stuff anyway.

You can still find posts on Dragonsfoot of Jim Ward bragging about how TSR brought in more revenue in 1995 than ever in its history, because of his great management. He neglects to inform people unaware of the difference between revenue and net income, that they also had more returns in 1995 than ever before in TSR's history. That's unimportant. What's important is that he shipped more product and this means that the style they were publishing then was totally legit as the desire of the masses.

Granted - this example isn't exactly the same, but the mindset - it is not one that would be very curious as to what the numbers meant, in any of several contexts.

 

[The1True]

The only problem is that world building, like character building, is like crack cocaine and this disgusting and shameful habit must be mostly kept from the sight of others

I would have just spat my coffee if I drank the filthy stuff. Can we get this enshrined in the OSR constitution?

 

[squeen]

@Yora, who you may recall started this thread, had a link on his most recent blog post to a series that deals with some of the issues we have been discussing here. First post is here, you might want to look in particular at footnote no. 2.

Holy Hand-Grenades Batman!

This is just crazy. I felt like I was tumbling down the rabbit hole as I read through these links. Here's what I found jarring, in no particular order:

• What you (@Beoric) link as the "first post is here" --- doesn't look at all like Yora's blog as I remember it. What's more that blog (osrsimulacrum) is all about history of the OSR and the elements of it's play.
• Last I remember Yora had "quit" D&D --- looking for a more story game RPG where he could force the narrative he wanted.
• Your (@Beoric) other link does lead to Yora's real blog --- BUT NOW HE IS PLAYING B/X D&D (and loving it)!?!
• Poking around a bit more, (on Yora's blog --- not osrsimulacrum) --- I discovered his earliest recollection of D&D is 3e.

OK. I am going to draw some possibly controversial conclusions here.

Exhibit 1: Yora's notion of good D&D was story-game (trad? neo-trad?) and based on 3rd edition. Whatever he was playing made him (as DM) feel like he had zero control of the setting. They jives with a trend I'd noticed before I left the hobby (pre-2e) of the players grabbing more and more control of the game.

Exhibit 2: When this thread started we were talking past each-other because he was playing something, which to me, has little-to-nothing to do with D&D. BOTH It's play-style and rule-set having completely morphed over the years....but none of the names have changed!

Exhibit 3: After rediscovering B/X Yora is now ALL IN again and having a blast. Of course what he's started doing first is modifying the B/W rules (Basic Fantasy?). For some reason, everyone who (re)discovers classic D&D feels compelled to do this as their first step. Maybe it's liberating---freeing of your inner creator to see you can do this...or maybe creative people just hate learning rules---I dunno (...and it's fine). Matt Finch in Swords & Wizardry told everyone to "imagine the hell out of it!" and he was emphatically right. The OD&D vibe--which TSR seems to have tried and squash with all it's unnecessary modules and supplements---is all about the creation of new and exciting things (I'll argue they can still be introduced in the environment/setting, without really affecting the rules).

NOTE: Yora's B/X "mods" are things like "Poison attacks do not kill instantly". Err...OK. (They almost never did.) Oh yeah---AND NEW CLASSES...gotta have some new classes. Lots. Immediately.

Controversial(?) conclusion: The pre-trad/classic style of play is just plain great---and anyone who has only been exposed to the later styles...just...has...no...idea...of...what...they...are...missing. The way those games are played is vastly different, and they should probably not even have the same name because it's confusing. This is the "renaissance" in the O-S-R --- ditching the later play-styles (even if we still want to screw with the rules/packaging/setting/etc.) and returning to the classic game in all its glory. It feels like archeology to uncovered the older style because of all the unrecognizable layers of weird stuff that have been piled on top.

When I actually read B/X for the first time six years ago, the thing that stuck out to me the most was how different it all felt from all the D&D I had known.

(@Malrex too has fallen for Old School Essentials, which is B/X re-printed verbatim. @PrinceofNothing uses house-rules B/X. @The Heretic is at it too.)

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Good morning.

 

[The1True]

In response to this discussion about TSR (and everything thereafter) printing what sells I wish I could find time to dig through my collection now for what I consider peak D&D. I definitely enjoy(ed) reading adventures for the pleasure of it, but I remember buying adventures and thinking "where's the dungeon?!" or "where's the kickass monster?!". Somewhere between these stripped-down, classic, white-cover adventures like the G series with minimal text and no fluff and the latter-day stuff with huge set-up, colourful maps and sumptuous illustrations but a critical lack of space to move or act freely is the sweet spot for me as a consumer.

I'm tempted to call it S3. Big, thoroughly-keyed maps. Cool monsters. Gorgeous illustrations. Great read. Maybe it doesn't run so well at the table, but as a product for consumption, probably peak D&D for me. As I said, though, I'd have to take another look at the book-shelf.

 

[squeen]

I would have just spat my coffee if I drank the filthy stuff. Can we get this enshrined in the OSR constitution?

@The1True is spot on. I loved that from Prince too! Enshrine it.

(Someone should eventually PM Yora and warn him...but not to soon...let him have his fun first.)

 

[The1True]

Right?! No one wants to hear about your sordid world building project. I've been trying to get feedback on this one project for the last five years and every time I bring it up I can hear the sound of the eye-roll over a million miles of internet cable.

It's worse in person. There is truly nothing sadder than two dungeon masters meeting at a public event.

 

[squeen]

...also, let me tell you about this weird dream I had last night...

(and some new classes I inno-vented...)

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Right?! No one wants to hear about your sordid world building project. I've been trying to get feedback on this one project for the last five years and every time I bring it up I can hear the sound of the eye-roll over a million miles of internet cable.

Reddit, amigo -

r/worldbuilding
r/worldprompts
r/worldbuildingcollabs
r/conlags
r/mapmaking
r/fantasywriters

and or course, r/worldjerking

 

[Malrex]

(@Malrex too has fallen for Old School Essentials, which is B/X re-printed verbatim. @PrinceofNothing uses house-rules B/X. @The Heretic is at it too.)

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Good morning.

Don't get it twisted. OSE is just easier to publish with. The layout is great and makes the game easy to understand for everyone. But I still play and enjoy the complications of 2e because of the options. I don't like feeling limited on my spell choices for example.

 

[The1True]

ah, down the Reddit-hole. and he was never seen again...

 

[The1True]

I don't like feeling limited on my spell choices for example.

Chromatic Orb, am I right brother? #CheapomaticOrb #BringItBack

Ooooh oooh also Multi-Classing, Weapons Mastery and Ambidexterity before they got nerfed were rad as hell as well. @squeen is probably going into paroxysms thinking about it!

 

[Malrex]

Chromatic Orb, am I right brother? #CheapomaticOrb #BringItBack

Ooooh oooh also Multi-Classing, Weapons Mastery and Ambidexterity before they got nerfed were rad as hell as well. @squeen is probably going into paroxysms thinking about it!

Always was a fan of the Grease spell actually....one of my favorites.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Always was a fan of the Grease spell actually....one of my favorites.

It's definitely one of those "think outside the box" spells, alongside the likes of Prestidigitation/Thaumaturgy, Ventriloquism, Magic Mouth, and illusory magic in general. Always a fun choice.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Doug Niles wrote X3 Curse of Xanathon? That thing is a train wreck.

I remember liking the idea of having a villain that you cannot kill directly, sort of like a proto-lich. Dissapointing. Niles did B5, one of the best adventures in the B series.