Your Thoughts?

Re. bonus actions: I'll take them over "segments" any day.

Re. action economy: Catering to varied player preference is a good thing, not a bad thing. More choice is better than less choice.

Re. lack of tension in fights: A crappy DM who doesn't know how to plan/run a fight is always going to have a bad time, regardless of system. I've seen enough good tense fights to know it's not some impossible feat if you have even an ounce of competence.

Re. 4e being like WoW: We all knew that. Corporations chasing trends to stay relevant is hardly surprising. Nice thing about 4e was that it's neither the first nor last iteration of the game.

Re. typical player group doesn't go past level 7: Quitters gonna quit, be they DM or player. Campaigns last *years* - not everyone is cut out for that kind of play. Of note - the reason guys complain about the lack of high-level AD&D modules is because this has been a thing since the TSR days.

I used to really like Professor DM, but these days he's got this super smug, anti-modern, my-game-is-better-than-your-game stance that I loathe (like this whole video is supposed to be some big "gotcha" play for 4e/5e, even though it's not especially persuasive and doesn't tell us anything we all didn't already know).
 
I'm not sure I understand the difference between 5e bonus action and 4e minor actions. I have never had a problem, or even heard of anybody having a problem, with minor actions slowing play. (The same can't be said about the various kinds of out of turn actions, but that's another discussion.) It was clear what you could do with them, and you either used them, or didn't, depending on what opportunities presented themselves in combat. This suggests to me that bonus actions aren't as well designed as minor actions, but I'm extrapolating, not speaking from experience.

Action economy: I think there are better ways to meet his concerns than to vary the action economy among classes. I feel like, if every class had a different rulebook, the game would bog down on the issue of trying to figure out what each player could do, and the DM would have more to handle in making sure players didn't accidentally, or "accidentally," take the wrong number of actions. And players of classes with more actions would eat up a lot more time than players with fewer actions, which I could see frustrating some players in the short run, and in the long run, pushing players toward classes with more actions. And when everyone plays with economy-maximized characters, combat would slow to a crawl.

4e does have some classes that have the same number of actions, but fewer choices as to what to do with them. So if a player wants to just bash things with a sword, that option is available. And if another player wants to be able to choose between options like pushing a monster out of a position to create a break in the line that the ranger can squeeze through, or knocking a monster on its ass, or marking a monster for punishment if it takes its attention off you to attack one of your allies; then the player can do that. Both of those are fighter subclasses, btw.

Lack of tension: This comes from several places. It appears to me that published WotC adventures have moved from an attrition model of module to a set-piece combat model. This causes a problem because most D&D mechanics are not well designed for a situation where you have no random encounters, but you have the obligatory one (or at least very few) outdoor encounter while travelling from point A to point B. IIRC, spells are no longer Vancian, but hit points/dice are still an attrition mechanic.

Furthermore, the move to make every battle a special snowflake set-piece leads DMs and (possibly) players to think that every combat needs to be some sort of nail-biting challenge. It just can't, if every fight carries significant risk, most of your campaigns are going to end quickly and abruptly. It also limits player agency if they don't have the ability to choose easier fights over hard ones.

Which leads to my next point. I'm not sure it is accurate to say that players want every fight to be deadly. I think it is common for GMs to think that's what players want, but when I'm a player, sometimes I want it to be a cakewalk. Sometimes I want to pick a fight if I think I can roll over team monster with brute strength. Sometimes I want to avoid the straight-up battle and figure out a way to drop a mountain on the dragon's head; while the DM is bemoaning the avoidance of his carefully planned set-piece battle, the players are high-fiving each other for their cleverness.

What he is describing really seems to be a game where players don't get a lot of choices about who or when they fight. From what I can recall of Mearls' modules, they tend to be pretty linear hackfests. And I guess, if the only meaningful choices you get to make are the tactics you use in battle, maybe they do all have to be something special? 🤷‍♂️

(When did this forum get a full complement of emojis?)

I note that after a while 4e did shift to increasing monster damage-per-round, and weakening monster defences, and it did noticably improve the game. I know some DMs reduce monster HP further in high level games, but I don't play or run enough high level games to be able to comment.

(I will say that I think there is a good argument for also reducing PC hit points in the middle and higher tiers of play; PC hit points increase at a far greater rate than monster's ability to damage them. Base monster damage increases by 1 hp each level, while PC hp increase by 4-7 per level. Most monsters might hit a fighter 2-3 times in a melee, and are lucky to hit a wizard even once; given that hp are replenished after every fight as long as there are healing surges to spend, an increase in 4-7 hp each level, while monster damage increases by 2-3 hp, is going to make PCs pretty invulnerable after a while. Between 1st and 7th level, for instance, an average PC will have gained 30 hp per battle, while the monsters are doing perhaps 15-18 hp more damage per battle. I have yet to convice my players to accept a change to the hit points rules, however.

WoW: I have watched people play WoW but I've never played it, so I can't comment from personal experience. I expect it is true that 4e was designed to mimic WoW, just like it is probably true that the formatting of PC powers were intended to give it a card game feel like MtG.

I'm not sure to what extent it succceeded. I have heard a lot of players who play both complain that WoW players come to 4e expecting it to work like WoW, and it doesn't; for example, they end up with a lot of dead fighters and paladins, because the "defender" role is not actually a tank; if you want a long adventuring day, you need the squishier classes to take damage from time to time. Otherwise, the limiting factor will always be the number of fighter healing surges. Fighters and the related "defender" classes are really good at preventing monsters from attacking anyone else, but ideally they should turn that off once in a while, or wizards etc. should take some risks, so the fighters don't run out of juice.

I also understand that 4e "leaders" (clerics, bards, some druids, etc.) are different from healers in WoW, in that their buffs are at least as important as the healing, since a large part of their focus is with helping the team kill monsters quicker, or preventing them from taking damage in the first place. (The subtitle of the CharOp warlord thread is "How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed.") But I stand to be corrected on any of this.

I can say that, despite the defined roles for various classes, it doesn't really hurt the game if you are missing one (although if you don't have any leaders you are going to have to invest in a lot of healing potions). I don't know if WoW works that way or not.

Relately, when I say I don't think the designers really understood the game they designed, I count Mearls as being one of the primary offenders.

Games end at level 7: Yeah, if you are running the same character using the same basic mechanics and nothing about the game changes, you are going to get bored. You know what you could to keep the game interesting? Change the focus of the game. Like, I don't know, maybe the players could settle down, build a territory for themselves - establish a domain, if you wish - and play in that. If only somebody had thought of that earlier.

I gather the DMG 2024 has a section on domains - which are mainly fluff rewards that come more or less automatically as you level - and don't actually have any impact on play, nor can they be affected by play. So, kind of missing the point.

I will say, I think the beard is a good choice.
 
Furthermore, the move to make every battle a special snowflake set-piece leads DMs and (possibly) players to think that every combat needs to be some sort of nail-biting challenge. It just can't, if every fight carries significant risk, most of your campaigns are going to end quickly and abruptly. It also limits player agency if they don't have the ability to choose easier fights over hard ones.

Which leads to my next point. I'm not sure it is accurate to say that players want every fight to be deadly. I think it is common for GMs to think that's what players want, but when I'm a player, sometimes I want it to be a cakewalk. Sometimes I want to pick a fight if I think I can roll over team monster with brute strength. Sometimes I want to avoid the straight-up battle and figure out a way to drop a mountain on the dragon's head; while the DM is bemoaning the avoidance of his carefully planned set-piece battle, the players are high-fiving each other for their cleverness.

Yeah, a major consideration I see almost nobody take into account is the deliberate need for easy fights - both for reality's sake (not every fight is even and balanced, in fantasy or reality), and because those fights play into the motivation that the players have to grow more and more powerful. What's the point of being awesome if you don't get to lord your awesomeness over weaker creatures that once gave you pause? What's the point of building up a character to finally be stronger than an ogre if the DM stops throwing ogres at you and starts with giants instead?

Steamrolling weak monsters is like the major benefit of growing stronger - if you take that from the players, you essentially rob them of their motivation to advance. More designers could/should be cognizant of that point, I think. Tension is only one facet of battle; satisfaction is another.

That being said, steamrolling need not be boring - you can certainly obliterate a band of weak-ass kobolds in fun and creative ways, in fun and creative settings and scenarios.
 
Yeah, a major consideration I see almost nobody take into account is the deliberate need for easy fights - both for reality's sake (not every fight is even and balanced, in fantasy or reality), and because those fights play into the motivation that the players have to grow more and more powerful. What's the point of being awesome if you don't get to lord your awesomeness over weaker creatures that once gave you pause? What's the point of building up a character to finally be stronger than an ogre if the DM stops throwing ogres at you and starts with giants instead?

Steamrolling weak monsters is like the major benefit of growing stronger - if you take that from the players, you essentially rob them of their motivation to advance. More designers could/should be cognizant of that point, I think. Tension is only one facet of battle; satisfaction is another.

That being said, steamrolling need not be boring - you can certainly obliterate a band of weak-ass kobolds in fun and creative ways, in fun and creative settings and scenarios.
I agree with this, particularly with the comment that players should have a chance to enjoy the fruits of gaining levels, by once in a while having the opportunity to completely overpower monsters that previously gave them a lot of trouble. And you will note that Schedule C of the 1e DMG expressly allows for this; using these tables, there is always a chance of running into orcs, no matter how deep you go in the dungeon. There may be a lot more of them, but if the players get good at fighting orcs, they are going to get to use that from time to time.

And that's one of the benefits of the later editions, which mechanically differentiate between types of monsters. In 1e, the difference between gnolls and hobgoblins is mostly in the flavour text; mechanically they are not much different from each other, and without some DM initiative they are both just humanoid bags of hit points.

But in 4e, there are mechanical differences that cause them to fight differently, even if the DM isn't trying to make that happen. Hobgoblins are designed to function as a unit; their mechanics help them to move in unison as a team, and they often have abilities that allow them to protect each other. They are also able to shrug off non-damage conditions more easily than other monsters. Gnolls, on the other hand, do more damage if there are other gnolls attacking the same PC. So the DM, even if he doesn't give much thought to tactics, is going to run the hobgoblins as a disciplined force, strong on defence, and operating as a group. While that same DM is going to lean towards making the gnolls swarm enemies, in order to cash in on the increased damage.

So if the players keep fighting hobgoblins from time to time, they are likely to get good at fighting hobgolins, as they learn to counter hobgoblin tactics. And the same goes for gnolls, or any other monster. And if they get good at doing something, every once in a while they should have a chance to enjoy doing the thing they are good at.
 
But in 4e, there are mechanical differences that cause them to fight differently, even if the DM isn't trying to make that happen.

Admirable design choice. As much as 4e gets crapped on for making D&D a bit too "video-gamey", there are times when the principles of videogame design are not only applicable, but genuinely beneficial. Comparable ideas have been implemented in 3e (lair actions and Legendary actions mostly, which were originally designed to mitigate the action economy advantage held by the players, but ended up being very good for punching up otherwise boring encounters). I think each edition brings good parts to the table, regardless of how someone feels about it.

"Claw-claw-bite" is a meme I see thrown around these days which sums up by-the-book enemies pretty nicely - on the whole it means you have to get more creative with your encounters. But as we know, "creative" does not equate "tense" or "difficult". It means "interesting"; any monster can be made interesting - Tucker's Kobolds are like the prime example of that. 4e's solution was apparently to bake it into the mechanics of encounter design, with defined roles like "controller" and whatnot, and your example of hobgobs vs. gnolls tactics - which makes total sense in the context of "new edition means new DMs". Grogs sometimes forget that not everyone has 30+ years experience with the game.

Personally I prefer my monsters to be more of a blank slate on which to craft bespoke situations, but I also definitely advocate the inclusion of tools that facilitate newer players. Unfortunately, the older stubborn mindset tends to see such things as "messing with *their* precious D&D game", which is a super narrow take in my eyes. Professor DM seems to be right on that threshold, which is ironic given that he rose to YouTube popularity on the back of 5e and cut his teeth writing the infamous giant stat blocks for Dungeon Magazine.
 
Personally I prefer my monsters to be more of a blank slate on which to craft bespoke situations....
Page 42 of the 4e DMG has guidelines for improvising mechanics for pretty much any situation. And the monster building tools make it very easy to customize them.

But also, nothing really breaks if you would rather just wing it. From the way people keep talking about how finely balanced it is, you would think it was a finely tuned fighter jet in constant need of maintenance. But really it's pretty tough to break.
 
But also, nothing really breaks if you would rather just wing it.

Oh I know. This has been my position from Day 1. It is unfortunately not a popular stance among established D&D communities, and most vocal DMs these days tend to be either newbies too scared to deviate from prescription, or grogs too set into their ruts. Any kind of fudging, improvising, or on-the-fly alterations is like slaughtering the sacred cow to them - met with clutched pearls, harrumphs, and "might as well just play something else then" comments.
 
Oh I know. This has been my position from Day 1. It is unfortunately not a popular stance among established D&D communities, and most vocal DMs these days tend to be either newbies too scared to deviate from prescription, or grogs too set into their ruts. Any kind of fudging, improvising, or on-the-fly alterations is like slaughtering the sacred cow to them - met with clutched pearls, harrumphs, and "might as well just play something else then" comments.
Yeah, it's a big culture shift from when I started to play, and the official TSR publication, Dragon magazine, was stuffed with articles detailing people's house-rules.
 
Harrumph indeed. What we learned is that Mearls ain't all that special but we actually knew that already. I played a lot of 4e, it was an unfinished game. Degenerated across tiers. High level fights were tedious at best, used all my abilities now we are all just swinging and missing most of the time. Twenty-seven rounds later we win... All this grumble aside, when 4e worked I think that you could imagine it being a fair extrapolation of a D&D still connected to Chainmail.
 
What we learned is that Mearls ain't all that special but we actually knew that already.

Unless they've got a doctorate in Statistics or something, pretty much every RPG creator's "credentials" essentially amount to "reads fantasy literature, has a lot of spare time, is functionally autistic".
 
Unless they've got a doctorate in Statistics or something, pretty much every RPG creator's "credentials" essentially amount to "reads fantasy literature, has a lot of spare time, is functionally autistic".
The doctorate might be a bit of over reach. Something more than working for a corporation for a long period of time and (likely) having a name for every gummy bear they ever ate might be nice. I don't discount that the chap in question probably is on the spectrum. The interview was bait to hear a whore possibly dishing on their former pimp.
 
But also, nothing really breaks if you would rather just wing it. From the way people keep talking about how finely balanced it is, you would think it was a finely tuned fighter jet in constant need of maintenance. But really it's pretty tough to break.
I think that was my biggest realization of the past 10 years, and I was slow to come to it because the OD&D we played in my youth was so customized. But I now appreciate that this statement is wrong.

Nothing breaks in the short-term, but throwing away lessons learned (by others) from thousands of play-hours is to behave ignorantly. You can build a well-balanced alternative/modified system, but it is not trivial. That said, I still think experimenting is wonderful, BUT you have to be willing to throw your mistakes away and re-calibrate constantly. It's hard work, just like everything else.

Only charlatans and fools think otherwise. Which category Mearls falls in, I cannot say, but his track record is not encouraging.
 
Play is play. Fun is fun. Beoric's point essentially boils down to:

"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?" - Anton Chigurh

That is to say, if the game isn't working for you RAW, then who says you can't change things to make it work? It's not rocket science. We're not juggling the cosmos here. 10-year-olds can and do play D&D. Clutching onto a purist mindset when it interferes with your game is what's truly foolish. The entirety of the third-party/homebrew/OSR zeitgeist is proof of that; if D&D served them fine as-is, they'd all be playing RAW.
 
Yep, it's a weird trend I've noticed since forever. This strange duality old school players have - on one hand, everything needs to be prescriptive and "done the right way" or "played traditionally as intended"; on the other hand, every single person who says this ends up writing their own house rules (or even an entire system) or fiddles endlessly with new mechanics that they swap with other grogs on dragonsfoot or whatever.

It wouldn't bother me so much if they weren't so fucking smug about it when they shit-talk new editions for daring to change things. I loathe hypocrites more than anything.
 
I don't think it's possible not to have some rule drift in your game. At some point you run up against a situation where the rules make an absurd result, and have to houserule an exception. And eventually you are going to run into a situation the rules don't cover, and you have to make a ruling. If you make such rulings consistently, they will eventually be a houserule.

I also think that people designing a system for publication, especially in the early days of the hobby, sometimes make rules that are an attempt to codify rulings that they make more or less consistently, and according to their own judgment. And attempts to systemize the judgment calls that they have been making according to their gut feeling, much less codifying it for use by others, is likely to fall short.

I strongly suspect that segment based initiative was devised this way. Gygax made quick gutchecks in determining who got to go first, and then he tried to codify that to duplicate the experience for other DMs.
 
I kind've liked segment-based initiative. It gave people a reason to choose lightning-fast weapons and spells that might otherwise be ridiculously underpowered. I couldn't find a way to port it into the otherwise elegant 3e action economy unfortunately.
 
I couldn't find a way to port it into the otherwise elegant 3e action economy unfortunately.

If you felt up to it, you could make a list of all the weapons and spells in the game (or just find one, really - those lists exist already) and then assign them all a "priority number" (maybe a priority number only for weapons, and just the spell level for spells). Lower priority goes first, with DEX score being the tie-breaker, or something along those lines. It would probably have to replace the initiative system entirely though.

At least, that's how I'd homebrew something like that.
 
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