Lots of shit going on / Sandboxes

[EOTB]

While there's no shortage of those railroad-y Dragonlance or Ed Greenwood adventures, that isn't usually the case by what gets outlined in the formal rules of most games. The DM/GM has almost always held the role of rules arbitrator and world interface. A game in which they control beginning, middle, and end is just a DM telling a story to an audience, not proper D&D gameplay.

I also can't see the connection to a Quantum Ogre here, which is simply a prescriptive tool, not the basis for the entire game.

I'm not just talking about the QO; I'm talking about the mindset that believes a decision to insert a QO because the inserter feels the game will be made more fun by its insertion. It's benevolent arbitrariness, but it's still arbitrary. And if players are data-collecting to understand the curve around them this fuzzes that process. It's not helpful, even if temporarily exciting.

The entire point is don't try to manage my excitement. Let me develop my own excitement.

 

[Beoric]

That's an abuse of the Quantum Ogre, not so much something inherent to its being. It's like vowing never to watch a movie again because someone talked in a movie theatre once - your problem is not with movies, but rather with someone just being a dick.

Light touch, deft hand, nobody even notices.

All right, DP, give me an example of a use of the QO that would not piss me off.

"Nobody even notices" implies that the issue is whether you get caught or not. I have been doing this for a while, you should probably assume I am going to catch you from time to time.

 

[squeen]

Son of a gun! I am such a hypocrite!

Just finished playing, and would you believe I Quantum-Ogre'd a potion! I couldn't remember what a potion did that they found last session (forgot to write it down), so I quantum-realized an Oil of Etherealness from another stash they passed up into their hands because I thought they could seriously use it later in the Maze of the Phase Minotaur.

I feel dirty.

 

[Beoric]

I'm not sure that qualifies. I mean, you had previously established the existence of the potion, and had to improvise something on the spot, and had that potion in your head. That is different from deliberately inserting it into a hoard where no potion had been before. Improvising is kind of the opposite of the Quantum planned game element.

 

[The Heretic]

Did they know it was a potion before, and it somehow now changed into an oil? The two have different observable properties.

Better question: Will they even end up using it?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

All right, DP, give me an example of a use of the QO that would not piss me off.

Already known: There are at least four marauders. They are trap-makers. They are beating a hasty retreat; "back to da' camp!" (one shouts). The party is following their retreat along a forest trail.

DM: "The marauders' retreat proves easy enough to track, but their path diverges at a fork in the trail. To the east, the foliage thins, and there are signs of broken branches and kicked stones. To the north, a rustle in the dense shrubbery about fifty yards ahead. What do you want to do?"

 

[Beoric]

Can I assume a platonic party of figther, ranger, cleric, rogue/thief and wizard?

When you say their path diverges, do you mean the marauders have split up and gone in different directions, or are you suggesting we lost the trail when we got to the fork in the road?

What kind of traps do they make?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Standard party. When I say the path diverges, I mean the cluster of boot prints you were following arrive at a fork in the trail - some footsteps go left, some go right. The marauders are known to make crude, ewok-style traps (deadfalls, rolling logs, covered pits, etc.) - you've encountered some in their territory before.

 

[squeen]

Split the party. Send the thief circling around through the woods in the west to flank the ogre/trap to the North, have the ranger continues tracking to the east, while the rest of the party waits at the fork for a signal that reality has solidified. (...while leads to TPK, natch!)

Did they know it was a potion before, and it somehow now changed into an oil? The two have different observable properties.

Better question: Will they even end up using it?

They hadn't inspected the potion previously (it was over a month ago we last played) and I needed a quick description of the container, so I grabbed the one I had written: "a delicate glass vile with a silver stopper in the shape of a cloud". They haven't even popped the cork or identified it, so I am not past any sort of point-of-no-return (except in my own head). The point being is that they missed useful and interesting treasure, so I regurgitated it. "Helping" the party, rather than just letting them blunder on.

He's some of the irony... [it's OK to tune out now, I'm going to get wordy].

Spoiler: Blah blah blah...my campaign...D&D theory...the Old School way was right...etc.

My player's are usually "bad" a selecting spells---leaning too heavily towards offensive, damage-dealing/combative, and ignoring the other options, even though they usually avoid combat like it's the Corona Virus. It's probably my fault at some level as DM. Strangely, this time it was a bit different.

They had found two documents (some Bryce-maligned "journals", eh?) in an Invisible Box along with the potion. One was a History of the Reign of the Witch-Queen (who built the dungeon they were about to enter), and another a sage-essay on the folklore of Mirror Fiends (which I am borrowing from Trent's clever Mystical Trash Heap write-up). The historical account talks about how the Queen turned a rebel clansman into a horrible beast cursed to wander her dungeon. They "wrongly" conflated the two and came up with some good prep---the cleric petitioned her God for the spell Plane Shift.

This is a seriously cool spell. NEVER used it, or saw it used, as a player. It's in 1e, but not in 0e. An it's absolutely perfect to take on the Minotaur that walks between a storm-battered island of caves in the Ethereal Plane, and a maze of mirror-portals. Without some method to track him back to his home-plane, he's probably going to tear them up with hit-and-run tactics as they traverse the maze. This spell is perfect!

Why did they "get smart" this time? I'm not sure---foreshadowing via the documents? Dunno. Something to keep in the back of my mind for future Adventure Design.

Here's another aside (and indicative of my slow gravitation from 0e/S&W towards 1e)...

I have struggled with Cleric acquisition of new spells.

Magic-users have been great---new spells ONLY through spell-books won as treasure or a (very) occasional bartering with other non-hostile NPC's (no local Wizard's Guile for setting reasons). I can't recommend this enough. It makes for great treasure, allows you introduce non-standard spells (and weird/flawed/unpredictable variants of standard spells), and the MU ends up with a ridiculous non-portable library of tomes (with lot's of duplicates) and the need to protect them.

...But I didn't know what to do for clerics. Anthony Huso came to my rescue. He pointed to the section entitled "DAY-TO-DAY ACQUISITION OF CLERIC SPELLS" in the 1e DMG (pg. 38). Here's an excerpt:


Of course the players moaned about having to do this, but it was the first campaign 5th-level spell (not found on a scroll), so I was able to introduce a new rule without seeming inconsistent. So the cleric decided to return to a previously visited temple and pray for hours, then I had a statue of one of the gods minion's crumble and it's disembodied head start speaking (scene stolen from original Clash of the Titans). The spell was granted---BUT!---a promise was also extracted. Yippee! More campaign fodder!

What's more, the player that groused about it originally, loved it. Went around telling everyone how she "broke the temple". (Told you they have this weird desire to brag to friendly NPCs.) It ended up being a great chance for the player to really exercise their class. Another example of First-Edition Wisdom that I had always hand-waived away before.

Live and learn.

Anyway, back to the original point. I QO'ed that Oil of Etherealness...and I shouldn't have. The player's innovation made it redundant. And, think about it, how much more rewarding it will be if they beat the Phase Minotaur as a result of their own excellent prep, than if it was due to them just pulling out a potion that was "gifted" to them by a benevolent DM (who only wanted to make sure they could keep "having fun" in what lay ahead).

Live and (hopefully) learn...(again!).

It is as EOTB says: The QO-enabled DM is not building good players, he's building dependent players. A good parent understands not to coddle one's children, because to you can ultimately hurt them with your kindness. "Reward in a Pit of Risk"...even if it's the risk of boredom. As DM, you are omnipotent, but not omniscient. Check your own power and let the game play out. Only then will your players will learn how to make it fun on their own---to the delight and surprise of all. It's gonna be better than you concoct solely on your own.

/End rant

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Split the party. Send the thief circling around through the woods in the west to flank the ogre/trap to the North, have the ranger continues tracking to the east, while the rest of the party waits at the fork for a signal that reality has solidified. (...while leads to TPK, natch!)

The thief splits off from the party; the rustle ahead was a gorilla in mating season, and the thief has a chance to spot it (skill check) - if pass, can slowly back away, unsure if the marauders lie further ahead. If fail, then roll initiative for your poor lone thief who will probably be pulled apart by an angry, horny gorilla because you've violated unwritten player rule #1: don't split the party.

The ranger is good at tracking, and indeed can spot three sets of marauder footprints following the trail. Unfortunately, while he's good at noticing footprints, he's less good at noticing traps, and that's when he stumbles into a camouflaged pit trap - not deadly, but definitely gives his pursuit some pause and if he can't scramble out, then the party basically sees him wander off and never return (hopefully the can find him, the pit IS camouflaged after all).

The rest of the party twiddles their thumbs while their players migrate to their phones because they're sitting there with nothing to do.

Jeeze squeen, so far you've got one possibly dead thief, one possibly disappeared-forever ranger, and two bored players... and I haven't even gotten around to using the quantum ogre yet!

It is as EOTB says: The QO-enabled DM is not building good players, he's building dependent players. A good parent understands not to coddle one's children, because to you can ultimately hurt them with your kindness.

You've jumped to a janky conclusion by assuming that QOs are automatically going to be abused or overused by everyone that uses them. Also, dependency? I don't think you give your fellow DMs enough credit. If they fudge a die roll at a crucial moment, does that suddenly make the DM "dependent" on fudged dice rolls? Are all their rolls going to be fudged? Will the players never be able to trust an unseen dice roll every again? No. So why do you believe this to be the case with QOs?

 

[squeen]

The ranger is good at tracking, and indeed can spot three sets of marauder footprints following the trail.

Then he's done. Positive "yes" signal is sent. The thief stops circling. Everyone goes East.

..or is that not the fun result---does something need to "change"?

Slippery slope, me thinks. Janky is in the Eye Of The Beholder.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Then he's done. Positive "yes" signal is sent. The thief stops circling. Everyone goes East.

..or is that not the fun result---does something need to "change"?

I guess I forgot the part where your guys had magical walkie-talkies? Keep in mind, there are footprints going North too, and your group could already see there were footprints going East, so I don't know if your Ranger would have stopped to confirm that yes, there are still footprints going East.

On a side note: You've just used the player-version of a dirty metagame trick - the old ret-con the action routine. "Well, my Ranger would obviously have stopped once he saw three sets of tracks, so he wouldn't have gotten as far as the trap, so he wouldn't have fallen in." Its as old a trick as the "my fighter always sleeps in his armor" player ret-con.

For the sake of the argument though, let's say your Ranger calls back and says "hey, a bunch went this way!". You go East - now the whole party deals with the pit trap (easily spotted by the thief). Beyond, a body lies across the trail - one of the marauders, his arms pulled from their sockets - a Nature check will tell you that the local gorillas are in mating season and have been known to rip men to pieces. The Ranger notices that after the trio of footsteps he was following becomes a duo, the surviving pair have apparently split up - one set of prints heads further down the trail where rushing water can be heard, while the other has peeled off into the woods somewhere.

I still have a quantum ogre to deploy.

 

[squeen]

I see. No argument then. TPK. Probably runs smoother at the table---more back-and-forth.

Have we gotten to the QO yet, or are we just proving I am a bad player (which is akin to shooting fish in a barrel)?

 

[EOTB]

Why are we supposed to exclude the overuse/abuse of the QO because you say you don't personally?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Have we gotten to the QO yet, or are we just proving I am a bad player (which is akin to shooting fish in a barrel)?

Check the post edit. i swear I'm getting to my point.

Why are we supposed to exclude the overuse/abuse of the QO because you say you don't personally?

For the same reason we are supposed to assume that QOs are dangerous, corrupting influences based solely on your limited experiences with them?

I still maintain the point that QOs aren't bad when people know how to use them properly, just like how a hammer can cause a lot of damage if you swing it at someone's head, but that's not how hammers are meant to be used, and I would think it rather shortsighted to say "hammers are going to turn everyone who uses them into killers".

 

[squeen]

I think the "common wisdom" being expounded is that Quantum Ogres are a dangerous practice with unintended consequences on your players and your game---so avoid the habit of using them.

There's not much to be said about the (3-sigma) Master-class DMs who can pull it off unnoticed and to the enjoyment of all involved, on a rare occasion, with the self-control and foresight not to overdo it.

Come on DP! You really don't get this?

 

[EOTB]

For the same reason we are supposed to assume that QOs are dangerous, corrupting influences based solely on your limited experiences with them?

No, you're not to assume that because I say so personally. That's not how it works. Someone who likes something presents why they think its a positive; someone who doesn't like something presents all the reasons they think it's a negative, and whoever is listening reads them both and decides who is most persuasive/lines up with their own experience.

 

[squeen]

The Ranger notices that after the trio of footsteps he was following becomes a duo, the surviving pair have apparently split up - one set of prints heads further down the trail where rushing water can be heard, while the other has peeled off into the woods somewhere.

Oh crap! Some else had better handle this fork---I botched the last one.

(...and that poor Marauder died --- violated by a gorilla! <Ack!> His blood will forever be on my hands...)

The lesson here is to fear forks in the road (and quantum mechanics)---right?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

The lesson here is to fear forks in the road (and quantum mechanics)---right?

The lesson here is in answering the question "where is the marauder leader"? Is he beyond the gorilla? Did he run into the forest when his companion died, or did he carry on along the trail? A better framing of this question is "where would it feel weirdly out of place, or perhaps cheat-y, to find the marauder chieftain?"

Sure, I had an idea of where he might be from the initial situation, but then the situation unfolded differently than expected. That's too bad, I had a really neat fight lined up with the marauder chieftain, and a good plot hook to communicate during the encounter. I guess I'll just crumple that up and throw it away since the party didn't go where I had expected them to go, and because if I put him in front of the party now it'll teach my players that all their choices are meaningless, and it could be considered "managing their excitement" (which apparently is a bad thing for... reasons?).

 

[squeen]

Sure, I had an idea of where he might be from the initial situation, but then the situation unfolded differently than expected. That's too bad, I had a really neat fight lined up with the marauder chieftain, and a good plot hook to communicate during the encounter. I guess I'll just crumple that up and throw it away since the party didn't go where I had expected them to go, and because if I put him in front of the party now it'll teach my players that their choices are meaningless, and it could be considered "managing their excitement".

In a nutshell: Yeah.

At least that's what I'd want you to do (as a player).