gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
Happy to hear how this goes in 5e. Faster, slower, the same? I hope to have a readout of the next Labyrinth Lord run in a week or so.
Barrow Maze with Labyrinth Lord
- Thread starter gandalf_scion
- Start date
Playing 5e with almost all new players. I don't think i have the social connections to start a LL game.
So character creation takes a ling time. They really do all want to play special snowflakes.
Zombies in 5E hqve this come-back mechanic when they h
it 0hp which is fun but makes the battle take a long time. I experimented with side initiative which is faster I think.
So character creation takes a ling time. They really do all want to play special snowflakes.
Zombies in 5E hqve this come-back mechanic when they h
it 0hp which is fun but makes the battle take a long time. I experimented with side initiative which is faster I think.
5e is plenty deadly enough if you play with brand new players; trust me. All the fleshing out of Helix works great. I'm still struggling with how to do xp. Wanted to do xp for gold but it was too slow. So I just bumped them to 2nd level then switched back to xp for gold and did more explaining. Thinking as I write, most of what has happened in our game has correlated with teaching new players rather than characteristics of the rule set.
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I have started 3 or four groups over the years and they all but one stumbled into the skeleton trap in room 2. Would it still work if the entrance was on the right instead of the left? In this game the 1/2 orc barbarian and a 0 level npc fougjt off all tje skeletons. I just dropped avg damage to 4 from 5. The barb made a nat 20 on his death save and that was fun. All the folk in Helix held him in awe after that... Unfortunately the player got his job back irl and had to quit the game.
I did use courtney campbells house rules foe darkvision and light. 5e is all messed up when it comes to light.
I did use courtney campbells house rules foe darkvision and light. 5e is all messed up when it comes to light.
This is an interesting thread to read. Thanks for posting it.
I personally find tracking initiative to be a total pain in the ass and waste of brain-power as a DM, so I just outsource it to a willing player to track. I also let the players decide how they want to do initiative, since they'll be tracking in anyways. This speeds it up quite a bit. With my regular DCC group, they wanted to use 5e style initiative, so we did that. If I have nobody willing to track initiative, I just do side initiative rolled on a D6.
From my personal experience, 5e just seems to run slower than 'old-school' variants for a number of reasons not limited to initiative. Changing how initiative is done might speed it up a bit, though. I'd just ask your players what they want to do, but at the same time, try to not overwhelm them with choices. I usually say something like "It's too much work for me to track initiative. Are one of you willing to track it? We can instead just do side-initiative, since that would make it a lot easier on me." Players are usually pretty understanding about this. Also, when I am a player, I always offer to track initiative.
From personal experience, if you want to run a non-5e system the best way to start a campaign is to just surprise people. Be vague and tell them you are playing DnD, and that they should just wait until you are all together before you make the characters, and then be like "HEHE GUYS JUST KIDDING, WE ARE PLAYING SOME WACKY DND KNOCK-OFF TODAY, NOT 5E." Definitely make sure you have the rule books and character sheets ready to go and then be confident about it.
Don't try this method in other areas of your life though, as it is likely to completely backfire and blow up in your face.
I personally find tracking initiative to be a total pain in the ass and waste of brain-power as a DM, so I just outsource it to a willing player to track. I also let the players decide how they want to do initiative, since they'll be tracking in anyways. This speeds it up quite a bit. With my regular DCC group, they wanted to use 5e style initiative, so we did that. If I have nobody willing to track initiative, I just do side initiative rolled on a D6.
From my personal experience, 5e just seems to run slower than 'old-school' variants for a number of reasons not limited to initiative. Changing how initiative is done might speed it up a bit, though. I'd just ask your players what they want to do, but at the same time, try to not overwhelm them with choices. I usually say something like "It's too much work for me to track initiative. Are one of you willing to track it? We can instead just do side-initiative, since that would make it a lot easier on me." Players are usually pretty understanding about this. Also, when I am a player, I always offer to track initiative.
From personal experience, if you want to run a non-5e system the best way to start a campaign is to just surprise people. Be vague and tell them you are playing DnD, and that they should just wait until you are all together before you make the characters, and then be like "HEHE GUYS JUST KIDDING, WE ARE PLAYING SOME WACKY DND KNOCK-OFF TODAY, NOT 5E." Definitely make sure you have the rule books and character sheets ready to go and then be confident about it.
Don't try this method in other areas of your life though, as it is likely to completely backfire and blow up in your face.
gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
"From my personal experience, 5e just seems to run slower than 'old-school' variants for a number of reasons not limited to initiative."
Agreed.
Agreed.
DangerousPuhson
So ... slow work day? Every day?
That depends on the aspect.
Combat? Maybe. Watching your players poke everything with a 10' pole and dribble water onto the floor to see if it's level? That's not much of a 5e thing and slows the game to a crawl too.
All systems have their pros and cons, which is usually dependent on the DM and how well he does wrangling his players. For instance, you may say 5e combat runs slow, but perhaps you are running it wrong (not encouraging players to have their actions lined up on their turns, pausing to look up rules, going overboard on smaller "minion" enemies, not having a proper initiative tracker etc.).
The rules are inherently inert until a group starts using them, and in this way, I find the speed of the game to be entirely subjective to the meta-factors that apply to the rules - the comfort of players and DMs with the rules, knowing what your action options are, being efficient with how you track information and roll results, etc. These are all system-neutral factors that affect the speed of play.
As a prime example: I'm sitting here watching my girlfriend play Jurassic World Evolution and she's taking forever to complete the levels because she wants to do all the optional stuff, and backtracks many decisions she makes, and is just generally slower at playing the game than I am. Does that mean Jurassic World Evolution is a "slower game"? No. It just means my girlfriend's playstyle is making it slow. I could blow through what she's taken all day to do in about an hour. The game goes as quickly as the person playing it goes. TTRPGs are the same way.
Addendum to my point: Sure, Jurassic World Evolution by its nature is a slower game than, say, Call of Duty, but comparing editions of a table-top RPG is not as drastic a comparison. It'd be more like comparing Jurassic World Evolution with Roller Coaster Tycoon.
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gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
Barrowmaze Session 4
Our crafty elf and stout dwarf found their way to a band of tomb robbers (area 79) who, after some parley, showed them the way out of the maze. Back to Helix the party went for a full week of recovery before returning to the labyrinth.
Fully restored and joined by three new meat shields, the party resumed exploring at area 21. They looted two of three crypts to defeat seven skeletons, dodge a swarm of rats, and recover two platinum necklaces, two electrum bracelets, a potion of clairvoyance, 400 silvers, and 20 gold. From their they followed the diagonal passage to triangular area 28 and the one-armed gargoyle statue. Relieved it was really just a statue, they carried on to area 29 and defeated the mongrel men with a sleep spell. Soon after they discovered the secret door to 31D5.
The party explored the six crypts of area 31. That involved burning all the moldy curtains, slaying two ghouls, and a pack of skeletons while dodging more rats to recover a jeweled bracelet, two rings, and runic tablet. Somewhere in there they found a scarab key! A few instances of dungeon graffiti puzzled them along the way, and both runic tablets yielded bless spells.
Everyone is halfway to second level now, perhaps we should have a house rule that halves all required XP thresholds to expedite level advancement?
Our crafty elf and stout dwarf found their way to a band of tomb robbers (area 79) who, after some parley, showed them the way out of the maze. Back to Helix the party went for a full week of recovery before returning to the labyrinth.
Fully restored and joined by three new meat shields, the party resumed exploring at area 21. They looted two of three crypts to defeat seven skeletons, dodge a swarm of rats, and recover two platinum necklaces, two electrum bracelets, a potion of clairvoyance, 400 silvers, and 20 gold. From their they followed the diagonal passage to triangular area 28 and the one-armed gargoyle statue. Relieved it was really just a statue, they carried on to area 29 and defeated the mongrel men with a sleep spell. Soon after they discovered the secret door to 31D5.
The party explored the six crypts of area 31. That involved burning all the moldy curtains, slaying two ghouls, and a pack of skeletons while dodging more rats to recover a jeweled bracelet, two rings, and runic tablet. Somewhere in there they found a scarab key! A few instances of dungeon graffiti puzzled them along the way, and both runic tablets yielded bless spells.
Everyone is halfway to second level now, perhaps we should have a house rule that halves all required XP thresholds to expedite level advancement?
gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
We played for two hours. After the intro sessions, the team established a routine for each session that goes something like this. Socialize in town for a few days to have HHR Huffnpuff exchange gems and jewels for coin, swap stories/lore with Mazzahs the Magnificent, hire three meat shields, top off with gear, then go straight back to mound 12 and delve for a few hours, wash/rinse/repeat. We've all learned that once you get through the "outer perimeter" the treasure haul increases dramatically. Also, one meat shield always survives and the players pay him generously, usually 100+ gold for a single day of delving. So there's no shortage of volunteers when they come back. And, Mazzahs much appreciates the rubbings/drawings of the various runes encountered.
Played last night for three and a half hours. One brand new player with an interest in rules. One player with hardly any experience who never thought to buy armor. There was about an hour of screwing around in Helix trying to figure out what to do with their treasure from last session. When I explained that they wouldn't get experience until they sold the stuff and got the gold then it all quickly resolved. The they almost decided to leave the BM altogether and go to a nearby castle and investigate the Acolytes of Orcus, but they changed their minds, maybe in relation to my panicked look, I don't know.
I ran wandering encounters OSR style with the rogue spotting slow moving monsters (twig blights) 110' away and the party just deciding to avoid them. This was great because it illustrated what I wanted about the moor without turning into a 30 minute fight.
They went to a sealed mound, of course without sledges or picks. Then they went to mound 12 and descended. They explored rooms, 4, and 20. Then fought 4 zombies. I don't know if Lab Lord has undead fortitude for zombies but it is really fun. When they are hit for the final damage, Zombies save at 5+ damage to not die and instead have 1 hp. I let the player who did the damage make the roll and the zombies come back a lot. There are ways around it the party has to figure out (my group did not today) - great rule. They found the room with the funerary boxes and the gloves. One guy burned one of the gloves to see if it was magical, but I have never heard of that and allowed it to burn. Anyway, you need all 4 gloves to open this secret door. When they figured it out, they only had 3 gloves so that didn't work. The rogue tried to find a way to open the door. I let her roll two skill checks- one to investigate and one to try to finesse it open with her tools. The bard gave inspiration, she rolled high, and I let them open it. I don't know if that would have happened in L. Lord but it was fun.
Generally, everyone is having fun and laughing. There is an amazing lack of curiosity about how the game is played (what are my spells? What do they do? I can wear armor?) ; which does not offend me, but does hold them back. It feels like watching myself play my first 1/2 dozen games of Civ III on the easy setting when I just bumbled around while the other civs waited for me to come kill them. Hopefully they will figure it out little by little and feel like geniuses when they get it.
Next game in 2 weeks.
I ran wandering encounters OSR style with the rogue spotting slow moving monsters (twig blights) 110' away and the party just deciding to avoid them. This was great because it illustrated what I wanted about the moor without turning into a 30 minute fight.
They went to a sealed mound, of course without sledges or picks. Then they went to mound 12 and descended. They explored rooms, 4, and 20. Then fought 4 zombies. I don't know if Lab Lord has undead fortitude for zombies but it is really fun. When they are hit for the final damage, Zombies save at 5+ damage to not die and instead have 1 hp. I let the player who did the damage make the roll and the zombies come back a lot. There are ways around it the party has to figure out (my group did not today) - great rule. They found the room with the funerary boxes and the gloves. One guy burned one of the gloves to see if it was magical, but I have never heard of that and allowed it to burn. Anyway, you need all 4 gloves to open this secret door. When they figured it out, they only had 3 gloves so that didn't work. The rogue tried to find a way to open the door. I let her roll two skill checks- one to investigate and one to try to finesse it open with her tools. The bard gave inspiration, she rolled high, and I let them open it. I don't know if that would have happened in L. Lord but it was fun.
Generally, everyone is having fun and laughing. There is an amazing lack of curiosity about how the game is played (what are my spells? What do they do? I can wear armor?) ; which does not offend me, but does hold them back. It feels like watching myself play my first 1/2 dozen games of Civ III on the easy setting when I just bumbled around while the other civs waited for me to come kill them. Hopefully they will figure it out little by little and feel like geniuses when they get it.
Next game in 2 weeks.
gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
Mage Hand, thanks it's good to see the differences between 5e and LL. LL does not have undead fortitude as such.
The rogue tried to find a way to open the door. I let her roll two skill checks- one to investigate and one to try to finesse it open with her tools. The bard gave inspiration, she rolled high, and I let them open it. I don't know if that would have happened in L. Lord but it was fun.
Aha! This is one of those oft cited differences between new and old school play. In the OSR, it's all about the players stating they will put on the gloves and turn the handles.
The rogue tried to find a way to open the door. I let her roll two skill checks- one to investigate and one to try to finesse it open with her tools. The bard gave inspiration, she rolled high, and I let them open it. I don't know if that would have happened in L. Lord but it was fun.
Aha! This is one of those oft cited differences between new and old school play. In the OSR, it's all about the players stating they will put on the gloves and turn the handles.
I know. They blew it. Then they knew they blew it. Then they tried something different, used a minor resource, and rolled high so I gave it to them. This is what we should kibbitz over on boards like these. In hindsight, maybe I should have let them wedge it open just a little, enough for one player to peak though, or something like that.
Played last Thurs. 5e worked great. They got through 3 or 4 rooms: spooked the mongrelmen and were split by the poltergeist in the hallway. The dungeon has a lot of empty space to fill with wandering monsters and fast thinking from the DM which is a good stretch for me.
Next game I think they have decided to go somewhere else and further investigate the cult of Orcus. So I set up a large castle about 100 miles away. Do you all have an opinion about what to use for that? I've been planning on using the map for Dragonspear Castle and maybe Stonehell beneath it with some Cult of Orcus on level 2 or 3, but ive only read the first level of Stonehell he gives for free. Any suggestions welcome.
B
Next game I think they have decided to go somewhere else and further investigate the cult of Orcus. So I set up a large castle about 100 miles away. Do you all have an opinion about what to use for that? I've been planning on using the map for Dragonspear Castle and maybe Stonehell beneath it with some Cult of Orcus on level 2 or 3, but ive only read the first level of Stonehell he gives for free. Any suggestions welcome.
B
gandalf_scion
*eyeroll*
100 miles away! With medieval technology, that's an enormous distance. You could shrink it to 12 miles and be just fine.
Anyway, Dyson's Dodecahedron has plenty of free maps you can use...
dysonlogos.blog
Anyway, Dyson's Dodecahedron has plenty of free maps you can use...
Commercial Maps
Updated July 4th, 2024 – 610 Maps These maps are free for personal and/or commercial use – they are released under a free, royalty-free, commercial license. This allows them to be used,…
dysonlogos.blog
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
24 miles per day (walking) on a road---four days travel...maybe quicker by horse. (16x 6-miles hexes)
It's the kind of distances I like to use to get some separation between points-of-interest in my campaign-world. Heck, I generally place the little civilized hamlets outside the main city at least 1-day's travel away. If you want something to be creepily "remote" you gotta push it out even more I would think.
I think 100 miles is ok. Anyway a lot of these details just get made up on the fly. One random encounter lead to a dead guy from one of the rival parties. The players and other survivors took his body but left his plate mail because it was too heavy.
Later they learned that the armor had gone missing. Soon after a black knight popped up who was recruiting bandits. The players went after him and it turned out that he was Gamdar in disguise, in cheaply painted black armor. And he has all this creepy cult of orcus stuff hidden about.
Meanwhile a new player joined who was a bounty hunter (rogue). She decided that she had been sent from the distant castle to find the black knight. "Uh, ok." I say. So the black knight was from that castle. So now they want to go there and investigate the cult of orcus. They will find that most of the cult has gone to the BM to try and find the tablets of chaos. But what will they find at that castle? A military base and a dungeon beneath. Maybe Stonehell? I dont want to write thw whole thing myself.
Later they learned that the armor had gone missing. Soon after a black knight popped up who was recruiting bandits. The players went after him and it turned out that he was Gamdar in disguise, in cheaply painted black armor. And he has all this creepy cult of orcus stuff hidden about.
Meanwhile a new player joined who was a bounty hunter (rogue). She decided that she had been sent from the distant castle to find the black knight. "Uh, ok." I say. So the black knight was from that castle. So now they want to go there and investigate the cult of orcus. They will find that most of the cult has gone to the BM to try and find the tablets of chaos. But what will they find at that castle? A military base and a dungeon beneath. Maybe Stonehell? I dont want to write thw whole thing myself.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Go for it! You are in it over your head now (i.e. officially a DM). Kiss your free time good-bye and enjoy!
Played again. Game 5. 8 days of game time. They headed out for dragonspear castle to learn more about the cult of orcus. I think it will be fun when they go back to the barrowmaze and life in Helix has worsened. The rules work fine. I do import rules for morale and initial attitudes, but thats about it.
Having read dozens of blog posts and watched countless youtube videos im not worried about rules anymore. Will try to write an entertaining report later tonight.
Having read dozens of blog posts and watched countless youtube videos im not worried about rules anymore. Will try to write an entertaining report later tonight.