Mechanics Cross-Pollination Thread

[Beoric]

a 3rd lvl human Ftr is a CR 3
a 3rd lvl human War is a CR 2

ditto for an Orc
Things go up for more powerful monsters with Monster Levels (ECL?)

a 3rd lvl Troglodyte Bar is a CR 4 for example because he's got a couple levels of Humanoid which work out to about a CR 1 on top of his Bar lvls.
a 3rd lvl Trog War is a CR 3 however.

Four CR 3 monsters are an EL3 encounter, or a par encounter for 4 3rd lvl PC's.

I got lazy for the above btw and just ran them through ETools. You want to just tell me what you're trying to convert? Isn't everything's challenge rating already baked into the module? Surely there's a 3-4e conversion document out there somewhere? (ech, all I found was this which does seem to go into EL a bit)

Thanks, that's enough to work with. If I know that a level n PC is CR n, and you think that on average a PC with CR n is as tough as a monster of CR n, that is all I need.

I have never seen any conversion charts for any edition to 4e that did not fundamentally misunderstand 4e level progression. Levels 1-5 in every other edition are approximately equivalent to levels 2-10 in 4e, but noone ever seems to get that. They also don't seem to understand that a 4e level n PC is equivalent to a level n elite monster, the cumulative effect of which is converted characters and monsters end up being half as tough as they should be, or less.

So your trog barbarian should be converted to a level 8 elite, but will usually end up being converted to a level 4 elite (half as powerful as it should be) or even a level 4 standard (a quarter as powerful as it should be).

 

[The1True]

So your trog barbarian should be converted to a level 8 elite

That sounds bananas... Hopefully that curves off towards 20th lvl?

 

[Beoric]

Around 10th, actually. I believe the thinking was that since most players (like @squeen, for example) prefer low-level play, they doubled the length of low level.

"Low-level play" was characterized by the availability of the sorts of utility spells that change the way the game is played at certain levels. So first level utility spells, which are received at first level in most editions, are usually received at second level in 4e; second level spells, which are normally received at third level, are received around 6th level in 4e; and third level spells, which are normally received at fifth level, are received around 10th level in 4e. After that it levels off and advancement is at the rate of 1:1. The spells don't all map perfectly, but most are close enough to make a rule of thumb. (Some you can theoretically access at lower level but are severely gimped, or too expensive to use effectively until you gain a few levels.)

Since modules make assumptions about the sorts of utility spells the party is likely to have - feather fall, levitation, locate object, and others that change the scope of the game - when converting a module you kind of have to match the level at which those spells are received, rather than just mapping character level to character level. So when converting character levels 1-4 I normally double the level in 4e; anything above that I add 5 to the character level. So level 3 in 1e maps to level 6 in 4e, and level 5 in 1e maps to level 10 in 4e, but level 6 maps to level 11. That works until about level 20 (4e level 25); after that I gather you start to become godlike pretty fast, although I've never played that far so I don't know from personal experience.

When I started doing conversions I was worried that the doubling at low level would lead to some weird discrepancies in power level if you used, say, kobolds in a 5th (4e 10th) level dungeon; but I actually found that the power levels progress pretty quickly in 1e at low level anyway, so it works our surprisingly well.

Conceptually, it is probably more accurate to think of each level in 4e as representing a half level in other editions. The difference in power between a second level 4e character and a 10th level 4e character would be similar to the difference between a first level 1e character and a 5th level 1e character. For example in 4e, hit points do not increase as quickly as you level, when measured in relation to your starting hit points. A 5th level 1e character generally has 5x as many hit points as a 1st level 1e character. A 10th level 4e fighter will probably have about 2.5x as many hit points as he had at 2nd level, and a 10th level wizard will probably have 2.3x as many hit points as he had at 2nd.

And you get to play "low level" for twice as long.

 

[squeen]

And you get to play "low level" for twice as long.

How fast do you advance? How long (sessions) typically to get to 4e 10th level?

 

[Beoric]

From 1st to 10th would be 90 at-level encounters; since encounter levels are usually a bit higher, it would probably be more like 70. It works out the same even when I divert most of the experience to acquisition of treasure.

As for sessions, that kind of depends on how long your sessions are and how often you have (experience generating) encounters. The way we play would probably take us about 35-45 sessions. From what I gather of organized play, they aim for 3-4 sessions per level, so around 30-35 sessions.

 

[squeen]

10th == 5th level in 9 months sounds reasonable.

Cute hack, making each level effectively a half-level to satiate the ravenous players.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

The quote is from the PDF I linked in my first response, which breaks all this down. Just read it

 

[Beoric]

The quote is from the PDF I linked in my first response, which breaks all this down. Just read it

I see that is a Pathfinder specific document, which may explain why that calculation is different from the one that is clearly applied in 3.5. It looks to me like in 3.5, PC level n = CR n, and NPC level n = CR n-1; whereas in PF, PC level n = CR n-1, and NPC level n = CR n-2. Since I am converting 3.5 modules, not PF modules, I need to know whether the discrepancy is because

(a) PF rules for building monsters and/or characters is different from 3.5 rules, and the rule is accurate for PF but not necessarily accurate for 3.5; or

(b) PF rules for building monsters and/or characters is essentially the same as 3.5 rules, and PF the rule merely reflects a more accurate understanding of the power levels involved and is accurate for both PF and 3.5.

Does anyone know the answer to that question?

 

[Osrnoob]

So I just posted this and want to say thanks to Beoric for the topic, its a good one. From pathfinder friends they all say its the same. Your point about better PF's time/ better understanding of balance is right, but in play no one ever was chuffed

But this brings me to another point. Card games, mtg, Tekken, Street Fighter, PF, 5e balance is targeted to pushing what companies/ designers want. This thing RPG players have baked into themselves about what balance is crap. True balance is only true in a vaccum and anyone playing a game ruins your control/ environment that is playtested/ balanced around.

I also want to say this is written harshly but the main point is:
MECHANICS DO MATTER
I just think arguing over whats best is pointless - I see too much of this
Just try stuff and use what is fun to you and works best for your group

P.S.
This aint R/ and I wanted to say system does not matter. Just do fun stuff with whatever rules and game stuff you want. This is DIY bb, its an ethos not a system

OSR - its all the same - if I see another r/post on how to convert or what system should I use with x module - I will loose my mind - do what works (to use 5e stuff use CR as HD)
5e - Double OSR HD and DMG dice
3.5 Pathfinder - Double 5e HD and DMG dice
Confused? Call for a DC 16 check or roll under a stat and shut it maggot

With that said...
Started with S@W Whitebox - still use the monsters
PC said why cant I use plate and a halberd?
I said you know what, your right
Went to Knave and feels good
Added the Hazard Dice from necropraxis for encounters and Init
Usage Dice for torches and rations and such
Its 1 on 1 cause 2020
Crawfords Scarlet Heroes works well for duets and slots in with little to no mind space pain
Use the tables from Maze Rats with Finches daytime city encounters and Gabors Nocturnal Table
Death and Dismemberment Table for under 0 hp (0 hp is knocked out or/ and exposed - bleeding)

 

[Osrnoob]

I got a wild take for you all
The HP is too damn high
D8 HD was a mistake

 

[Osrnoob]

This has really helped with the speed of combat for us

 

[squeen]

You are saying you went back to OD&D d6 HD?

 

[Osrnoob]

Yeah we started White Box FMAG which is ODnD thats where we picked it up

But honestly for everything, its smooth for whatever you do

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

One of many reasons I like the Runequest-derivative games (particularly Openquest and Mythras, depending on how crunchy I'm feeling) is that there are no levels and HP is mostly static.

 

[Osrnoob]

One of many reasons I like the Runequest-derivative games (particularly Openquest and Mythras, depending on how crunchy I'm feeling) is that there are no levels and HP is mostly static.

I hear WarhammerFRP is like that.

It was described as Holmes basic lvl 3 Max but with critical damage that can mess you up at any time.

I like that idea, keeps it scary all the time.

Any edition of DND and at some point you become Thor

Any ideas how to keep that going and make damage scary throughout?

 

[Johann]

Have you considered exploding dice, Osrnoob? Warhammer uses them, albeit softened by a confirmation roll.

With an exploding die, whenever you roll the maximum, you take the result and add another die roll (for a possibly infinte result).

An exploding d6 might come up 6, 6, 3 for 15 points of damage. Average damage goes up only slightly (from 3.5 to 4.2 for a d6, or from 2.5 to 3.33 for a d4, for instance), but rolls contain sudden spikes.

Get attacked by enough goblins inflicting 1d6 and you will eventually take 20+ damage from a single hit.

This mechanic is very easy to implement -- and adds a ton of excitement and sudden death in my experience.

 

[Johann]

Another idea: Replace multiple dice with fewer, bigger dice.

For example, 2d6 could be replaced by 1d12. In this example, this slightly decreases average damage and does not increase maximum damage, but the results are more swingy and thus exciting (or frustrating or laughable). A T-rex inflicting 2d20 instead of 6d6 is scarier, in my opinion.

 

[squeen]

I got a wild take for you all
The HP is too damn high
D8 HD was a mistake

Wanted to pick at this a bit.

First, I do use 1e stats for most monsters with d8 HD. When I spec, unless the fella is an over-achiever, I typically award the average HP (4.5 x HD) to it, and often don't even bother with HP variation across a large group (i.e. all 4 bugbears get 15 hp). If the monster is a "boss", he'll typically get close to max HP for his HD. I know this is not BtB, and I'm being a bit lazy. (Shhh...my players don't know this.)

As has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, my players---despite the fact that PC death is relatively scarce at higher-levels, are extremely risk adverse. It has been suggested (by you kind folk) that may be because of my DM style which does not reward combat (or some other aspect of my style has traumatized my players...I can't recall). Here's a mini-list of my guesses as to why my player are risk adverse:

• we do not focus much on level advance, it's been slow (8 levels in 6 years with an average of bi-weekly play)---so the fight XP is minor (GP=XP), i.e. no reward for fighting unless you just plain want a threat eliminated
• I made it clear at lower-levels (and general demeanor) that death is a real possibility. As a result, they are very protective of their almost-name-level characters. Favored NPCs/henchmen do tend to drop in big battles...and sometimes they play the henchmen when their PC is occupado, so there's player-NPC-death identification.
• I play with my daughters. In my experience, girls are not quite the risk-takers boys tend to be. At least not mine.
• Almost all the monsters are home-brewed (tweeked) and unknown in terms of powers/abilities. I fiddle a lot, and the unknown is scary. Monster stats are always opaque.
• Magic (item) accumulation is a big driver (and route to power). It's also almost always an expendable resource. They are miserly in it's use.
• With regards to PCs becoming Thor---I agree. But that's only through recovered magic/artifacts, not inherent level-progression/ability. Also, I am very miserly with protective magic. An AC a step or two better than plate is the best they've ever achieved. (Poison...one hit can equal death, etc.). So they are always vulnerable to counter-attack, even while offensively formidable.

What this all adds up to is that the statement "The [monster] HP is too damn high" just hasn't been my experience. Fights are neither long or overly often. It's not unusual for us to go multiple game session without a battle---instead, they are sneaking around, exploring, or conversing with NPCs. Unless they are in a dungeon, it's maybe 1-2 fights...some fleeing...and a lot of sneaking. The amount of time my players spend invisible is probably alarming. I blame the Harry Potter books.

This has been said elsewhere (maybe at K&KA), but big-boss monsters vs. a high-level party usually only get 1 round to act---that's why surprise is so crucial for them. As I said above: my players are

a) scared (due to foreshadowing/unknown/etc.)​

b) hording their fire-power​

c) risk adverse​

So when the fight starts, they typically unload with everything they've got and the combat ends in 1-2 rounds. I've been dishing out the magic resistance to bigger-foes, which helps fizzle out a few of the spell-attacks, but the back-ups kick in. So, by round 2, a big-nasty with any sense is usually fleeing and taken down from behind.

I understand now, that if I am to engineer a real challenge for a higher level party, it has to be waves of multiple tough-creatures---one Big Baddie will never cut the mustard...but sometimes, in the campaign context, that makes little sense (and also, no way do my risk-adverse players go for a frontal assault, a trap will have to be sprung).

My $0.02.
(umm...is this your microphone? I think you may have accidentally dropped it. I heard a "thud" and...)

 

[Osrnoob]

Thanks for the exploding dice bit! I will give it a shot! I assume that applies to PCs too?

Yeah I really agree. Only time I think I have encountered this is fighting Sea Monsters or Dragons.

But you are right its the abilities that matter more for Dragons, Beholders and the like.

The HP bloat I have encountered has been in 5e on the PC side and maybe its a PTSD preventative measure. For the PCs... lvl caps to 9 or domain take care of that issue anyway.

D6 might be over steping a bit but when fights are to to death and the HP is over 40 I get a bit bored (morale to an extent eliminates this problem)

Side note: I think the combat only session that scared me was with an undead hulk of some sort

Could be unnessesary but any time I see a 20 HD monster.... I, like you, am more excited by the abilities they have. If it does turn into a smash fest, d6 is just my way of shortening it.

Also and I think this is understated. There is something about using primarily 2 kinds of platonic solids.

Feels good and is fast.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

I understand now, that if I am to engineer a real challenge for a higher level party, it has to be waves of multiple tough-creatures---one Big Baddie will never cut the mustard...but sometimes, in the campaign context, that makes little sense (and also, no way do my risk-adverse players go for a frontal assault, a trap will have to be sprung).

Correct!!! Also you must attack the character sheet from every direction. Attacking *only* HP won't get you anywhere after a certain point. You need to get creative. Passive debuff effects, stat loss, energy drain, charms & other mental attacks, poison, illusions and whatever else. Scary abilities should be deployed all the time. Or there is always Power Word Kill.