Mechanics Cross-Pollination Thread

[TerribleSorcery]

The variance is not that wide in my experience. CR 1 is more or less CR 1, whether it's a monster or a classed & leveled NPC. It shakes out to be the same ballpark. Although as you see below, that ballpark can be kinda wide from time to time.

** Except ** Classed & levelled NPCs are equipment-dependent. IIRC, with "npc gear" (whatever the fuck that is) an NPC has CR equal to their class levels-1, but with the presumably more upscale PC-grade gear, their CR would equal their level. This makes sense: under-equipped players would likewise be less effective, and have an "average party level" functionally lower than what it looks like on paper. My campaign demonstrates this firsthand since the setting is really stingy with even basic equipment. The 4th-level group is fighting weaker enemies because they lack good gear, especially armour. A quick perusal of any PF adventure path will show standard mook enemies carrying armfuls of potions, magic weapons, etc. ****

We can look at this with examples from the Archives of Nethys (they have compiled all? of the monsters from adventure paths, supplements, etc. Great place to crib statblocks so you don't have to do so much fucking work):

The CR1 category includes:

Drow Scout (2nd level rogue) - https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Drow Scout
HP 16, Spell Resistance 8, 120' darkvision, a couple spell-like abilities, some masterwork equipment, poison and a healing potion.

Gnoll (2 HD monster) - https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gnoll
HP 11, and... a spear? Why am I scared of this guy? I don't know.

Ghoul (2 HD monster) - https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ghoul
HP 13, multiple attacks, disease and paralysis. FML

As you see, the 2nd level rogue makes sense as a CR1 enemy, and is about on par with other monsters in his bracket. But without all his sweet equipment it would be a different story.

You might also want to look at a breakdown in this PDF here, he explains it better than I:

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1460/77/1460773144850.pdf

Here, I'll just quote the relevant passage:

Class Levels: When determining a humanoid’s CR, use its total PC class level –1 as its CR. For example, a 5th level Fighter is a CR 4 encounter. For NPC classes, use its total NPC class level –2. For example, a 2nd level Commoner is a CR ½ encounter. Multiclassing NPC classes and PC classes is messy CRwise; avoid it if possible.

Equipment: Your character’s equipment factors into its CR as well. If the character has NPC wealth appropriate for its level, its CR remains the same. If the character has no wealth, reduce its CR by 1. If the character has PC wealth, increase its CR by 1. This means that if a character has all PC class levels and is equipped appropriately for a PC of its level, its CR equals its class level. This is why the wealth guidelines are so important; if you do not keep your PCs up to date with treasure, you actually reduce the quality of the challenges that your party can face because like the total number of players in your party, the game makes assumptions about how well equipped your players are.

 

[Beoric]

Thanks, @TerribleSorcery.

EDIT: I guess I was fooled by the fact that every NPC entry I see has a CR equal to class level - unless it is an NPC class, in which case it almost invariably has a CR of class level minus 1, the exception being commoners for which I have not discerned the pattern. Is this a more or less accurate measure for NPC classes?

And how do the fractional CRs and NPC classes shake out? How many 1/3 or 1/2 CRs equal a CR 1?

 

[TerribleSorcery]

Yeah, the NPC classes are like 1 CR lower than thr PC versions.

As far as the fractional CRs, you can really just think of them as 'lower numbers' that go down in a linear way below CR1. There is a chart in the bestiary somewhere, I THINK that doubling the number of opponents adds 2 to the CR of the encounter but I might be misremembering. Either way, a CR 1/3 encounter "plus two" would end up as CR1 (1/3, 1/2, then 1).

To clarify, its easier to use encounter XP budgets to determine total CR I think, as that link outlines.

Edit again: this is my unenforced opinion, but it seems the work of a madman to have a "commoner class" with stats and levels that anyone would write down. That's 3.x for you I guess...

 

[Beoric]

All this makes me realize that most of the 3e modules I have read are seriously on easy mode. I've done some conversions using the assumptions I discussed and they turned out about how I expected. Now I find out the monsters are half as tough as I thought, and that my conversions were twice as hard as they were supposed to be? I feel like the people who wrote those things, or the tables they were based on, seriously didn't want the table to have to deal with character death.

 

[The1True]

you're starting to talk about Encounter Level (when you add up the various CR's in an opposing group.
Monsters with character levels tend to be more powerful. This might not be true for some of the weaker humanoids, especially if you're using NPC classes like Warrior or Adept which are significantly weaker than PC classes.
4 Monsters of CR n are a good fight for 4 PC's of nth lvl. Definitely check out the EL calculator I linked above.

 

[The1True]

I feel like the people who wrote those things, or the tables they were based on, seriously didn't want the table to have to deal with character death.

The easy fights are designed to grind down resources and sure maybe a little bit limit the dying to climactic encounters which are usually a much higher CR than the party.
Although, I'm not sure why I'm defending official 3e modules. I only really enjoyed three of them: 'Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil' was rad, 'Forge of Fury' was a sauce made out of awesome and 'Master of the Iron Fortress' was mostly combat-porn, but wasn't the worst. The rest were not great.

 

[squeen]

These comments in the PDF TS linked caught my eye:

The reason most encounters sour is due to the Action Economy, which can be simplified as the number of actions that all characters participating in the combat can take. When the PCs have more actions than their opponents, encounters end quickly.

What does he mean "most encounters sour"?
What is considered bad? An unequal fight? One that ends too quickly? Que?

The Gunslinger / Magus / Zen Archer is broken! I’m willing to bet that 90% of the GMswho cry ‘broken’ don’t know what the phrase actually means. “Broken” is an option that ruins your game by grinding it to a halt. In other words, any player option is only as broken as youallow it to be.

Heh. So 3e is broken too? Seems like an edition-universal accusation.

Designing my encounters in advance is the same as railroading my players, and only poor GMs railroad their players. Railroading can be loosely defined as forcing yourplayers down a specific plot or storyline without giving them any choice or the illusion of choice. Designing encounters in advance can sometimes be railroading, but it is not a sure sign of this poor GMing practice. The best GMs plan their encounters in advance and sprinkle in spontaneity later.

I read this to mean that no-prep/100%-improv model is perhaps not uncommon in the 3e world. Truth?
Either that or it is expected that a DM sticks to published works.

I always feel like a time-travler reading this stuff.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Heh. So 3e is broken too? Seems like an edition-universal accusation.

No, this seems to be accusing third-party/homebrewed materials of being broken (gunslinger/magus/zen archer are assuredly not base game classes). 3e's big problem was bloat, not broken rules.

I read this to mean that no-prep/100%-improv model is perhaps not uncommon in the 3e world. Truth?

3e improvisation is no more or less common than with any other editions. Improvisation hinges on two core skills: spontaneous creativity, and an inherent understanding of the rules. Those skills can be wielded in equal measure using any edition.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

No, this seems to be accusing third-party/homebrewed materials of being broken (gunslinger/magus/zen archer are assuredly not base game classes). 3e's big problem was bloat, not broken rules.

No, the quote is referring to Pathfinder. Those are all official Paizo classes from Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic and the Advanced Player's guide respectively.

I feel like the people who wrote those things, or the tables they were based on, seriously didn't want the table to have to deal with character death.

That's a Texas sized 10-4, good buddy. One of the reasons that PF drives me up the wall.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

No, the quote is referring to Pathfinder. Those are all official Paizo classes from Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic and the Advanced Player's guide respectively.

What is Pathfinder if not homebrew 3e upscaled for the mass market?

 

[The1True]

What is Pathfinder if not homebrew 3e upscaled for the mass market?

Wayne Reynolds soooooo goooooood

 

[squeen]

Wayne Reynolds soooooo goooooood

Not bad --- but, a bit anime for my tastes.

 

[The1True]

Not bad --- but, a bit anime for my tastes.

PF would never have gotten off the ground without him. I hope he was like 80% of their development budget. It's like Dark Sun would have been nothing without Brom.

 

[Beoric]

Here, I'll just quote the relevant passage:

Class Levels: When determining a humanoid’s CR, use its total PC class level –1 as its CR. For example, a 5th level Fighter is a CR 4 encounter. For NPC classes, use its total NPC class level –2. For example, a 2nd level Commoner is a CR ½ encounter. Multiclassing NPC classes and PC classes is messy CRwise; avoid it if possible.

Equipment: Your character’s equipment factors into its CR as well. If the character has NPC wealth appropriate for its level, its CR remains the same. If the character has no wealth, reduce its CR by 1. If the character has PC wealth, increase its CR by 1. This means that if a character has all PC class levels and is equipped appropriately for a PC of its level, its CR equals its class level. This is why the wealth guidelines are so important; if you do not keep your PCs up to date with treasure, you actually reduce the quality of the challenges that your party can face because like the total number of players in your party, the game makes assumptions about how well equipped your players are.

Where is this quote from?

And if this is the case, why does every single NPC I see with a PC class in the Eberron setting books have a CR equal to its level?

 

[Beoric]

'Forge of Fury' was a sauce made out of awesome

I do love Forge of Fury.

 

[Johann]

In my experience, the EL system gets out of whack the higher the PCs' level. The reason is charop. At 1st level, there just aren't that many synergies to exploit.

I like Reynold's art (Elmore, not so much), but have slowly grown to love Otus, Mullen, and Poag. On the one hand, constant OSR exposure softened me, on the other hand, the art often seems either relevant to adventuring or has a dream-like quality. Egad! I give up. No way to squeeze an analysis of all these disparate artists in a post.

 

[squeen]

When I was a lad, I was not a big fan of Otus. Now: yes, very much. Some day when I get a slice of time, I'll start an art thread for us to kick around.

 

[The1True]

I'm pretty sure that EL calculator answers all his questions without having to resort to interpretations... I've used it at high levels and it's not too broken.
It's been a really long time, but I think your main conversion issue is that 4e monsters have like 2-4x more hp. I remember almost quitting after we slogged through an 80 hp goblin in the introductory adventure...

 

[Beoric]

I'm pretty sure that EL calculator answers all his questions without having to resort to interpretations... I've used it at high levels and it's not too broken.
It's been a really long time, but I think your main conversion issue is that 4e monsters have like 2-4x more hp. I remember almost quitting after we slogged through an 80 hp goblin in the introductory adventure...

It doesn't answer the question of what CR to assign to an NPC.

The number of HP is irrelevant. I generally convert things by estimating how powerful a creature or NPC is in relation to a PC of a given level. Since I assume that an NPC built as a PC is exactly as powerful as a PC with the exact same build and equipment, what I need to know is the relationship between NPC level and its CR. I can extrapolate everything from there.

This is why I am trying to source the quote from @TerribleSorcery, because I have looked at writeups for hundreds of NPCs in the 3.5 Eberron books and various modules, and they follow a predictable pattern which is contrary to the statement he is citing. So I was wondering if it is a PF quote rather than a 3.5 quote.

I mean, what's your understanding, what is the CR of a human who is 3rd level in a PC class and has standard equipment? What if he was instead 3rd level in an NPC class?

 

[The1True]

a 3rd lvl human Ftr is a CR 3
a 3rd lvl human War is a CR 2

ditto for an Orc
Things go up for more powerful monsters with Monster Levels (ECL?)

a 3rd lvl Troglodyte Bar is a CR 4 for example because he's got a couple levels of Humanoid which work out to about a CR 1 on top of his Bar lvls.
a 3rd lvl Trog War is a CR 3 however.

Four CR 3 monsters are an EL3 encounter, or a par encounter for 4 3rd lvl PC's.

I got lazy for the above btw and just ran them through ETools. You want to just tell me what you're trying to convert? Isn't everything's challenge rating already baked into the module? Surely there's a 3-4e conversion document out there somewhere? (ech, all I found was this which does seem to go into EL a bit)