5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
"Evolution" implies some sort of Natural Selection---begs the question: What is the modern game selecting for?
All sorts of things... sensible arbitration, simplicity of adoption for new players, customization paths, ease-of-use at the table, product expansion lines, verisimilitude, compactness, fixing sticky rulings, streamlining boring elements, etc.

I think a lot of you guys are automatically put off 5e by virtue of seeing the math clutter of 3.5/pathfinder or the janky superpowers of 4e and assuming that most of it carried over, but they've pruned back a SUBSTANTIAL amount from the rules. The game now is extremely efficient comparatively (For context, I've run 3e since it came out, right up until 5e dropped. Even had a subscription to Dungeon... I know my way around system bloat.)

Games evolve. Older versions die away. There's a reason kids don't dance around maypoles and push barrel hoops with a wooden stick anymore - newer, better options have become available over time, pushing that stuff into obsolescence.
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
...or the janky superpowers of 4e and assuming that most of it carried over, but they've pruned back a SUBSTANTIAL amount from the rules...
I think we already established in this thread that 5e needs more player power scaling-back devolution for my tastes---but yes it has internalize "rules light" in a good way (back to OD&D in a sense).

I think it was Natural Selection for easy-of-play (new customers) that drove that decision.

However, I've been "ease-of-use at the table/verisimilitude/compactness/streamlined" in S&W for half a decade now and my internal pendulum is starting to swing a bit towards 1e for me lately. I feel like I can personally handle "a bit more" as a DM---now, which bits to adopt...hmm.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
PSA for everyone. The math of rolling a tie on initiative. No matter what number I roll on a d6, my opponent has a 1/6 chance of rolling that number.

The more complex breakdown is:
Rolling a specific double (ie. Snake eyes) is 1/36 (1/6 x 1/6). There are six possible doubles you can roll. So 6/36, which is 1/6.
Thank you!
We used 1e Wpn Vs AC adjustments in our last LL game. It adds about three seconds per player to combat resolution, less if multiple players have the same weapon. At the start of the combat, a player or the DM consults the table and applies that mod for the duration. After you do this once, you know your weapon's row, so finding it next time is a snap. After you do this three or four times, you know the adjustments for the most common ACs by heart. Since monsters often come in groups with the same weapon (six skeletons with short swords) one three-second check gets that number for all six of them! So, when we have two players, three meat shields, and seven foes, using Wpn Vs AC adds about 12 seconds to combat resolution.

More time is wasted by clumsy dice rolling that requires someone to pick a cube off the floor than is wasted by consulting the Wpn vs. AC table table.
I could use the same justification for various 4e mechanics. The much maligned "counting squares", for example. Is 6 really hard to count to? But the fundamental issue is that the more subsystems you add to a game, the more frequently you have to change your frame of reference to (as a player) evaluate the risks of a possible option or (as a DM) adjudicate an action, all of which adds to your cognitive load. (Also I note players can have it sorted out ahead of time, but DMs running militia NPCs in, for example, Hommlet are going to have a pretty miserable time of it.)

EDIT: And if you don't think the cognitive load adds up, try building a flowchart of the entire process of resolving the first found of combat, from surprise to the end of the round (which then returns to the initiative phase every round until the melee is resoved). You may be surprised at how many calculations and decisions you actually make just determining attack order.

Adding to the cognitive load has to have a payoff. What I am suggesting that that you should also yourself what real payoff Wpn v AC and speed factor have, particularly in combination. How often does it actually drive decision making in combat? I mean, you can figure out your weapon choice before combat: I vaguely recall reading a post by someone who alleged that they had done the math and the best overall weapon was the footman's flail, which has bonuses against all armor types other than unarmoured, and has a relatively low speed factor; however one could model every weapon if one wished to. But how often have you really seen choices being driven in a significant way by this mechanic?

If you say the payoff is "realism" we should have a discussion about some of the choices Gary made, both for AC adjustment and for speed factor. I have a particular issue with how speed factor ignores the concept of "reach", except where one party is charging or "otherwise closing precipitously".
 
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gandalf_scion

*eyeroll*
Thank you!


I could use the same justification for various 4e mechanics. The much maligned "counting squares", for example. Is 6 really hard to count to? But the fundamental issue is that the more subsystems you add to a game, the more frequently you have to change your frame of reference to (as a player) evaluate the risks of a possible option or (as a DM) adjudicate an action, all of which adds to your cognitive load. (Also I note players can have it sorted out ahead of time, but DMs running militia NPCs in, for example, Hommlet are going to have a pretty miserable time of it.)

EDIT: And if you don't think the cognitive load adds up, try building a flowchart of the entire process of resolving the first found of combat, from surprise to the end of the round (which then returns to the initiative phase every round until the melee is resoved). You may be surprised at how many calculations and decisions you actually make just determining attack order.

Adding to the cognitive load has to have a payoff. What I am suggesting that that you should also yourself what real payoff Wpn v AC and speed factor have, particularly in combination. How often does it actually drive decision making in combat? I mean, you can figure out your weapon choice before combat: I vaguely recall reading a post by someone who alleged that they had done the math and the best overall weapon was the footman's flail, which has bonuses against all armor types other than unarmoured, and has a relatively low speed factor; however one could model every weapon if one wished to. But how often have you really seen choices being driven in a significant way by this mechanic?

If you say the payoff is "realism" we should have a discussion about some of the choices Gary made, both for AC adjustment and for speed factor. I have a particular issue with how speed factor ignores the concept of "reach", except where one party is charging or "otherwise closing precipitously".
I too eschew weapon speed for the same reason (lack of reach), so we can take that off the table. More on realism later.

I understand the danger of sub-system overload. But there's also a danger in sub-system neglect. As often played, 1e combat boils down to boring rounds of "Roll to hit, roll damage, next?" Some groups try to spice it up with the DM adjudicating the efficacy of cinematic acrobatics on the fly, and other such ad hoc judgements. But that quickly becomes highly subjective, even arbitrary and capricious. Advocates of this "rulings over rules" approach often overlook that such games are not games at all, but rather DM-story telling exercises (making it up as he goes along) with the players just watching for lack of true agency; so they don't really even need to be there! Sub systems with transparent/impartial mechanics can mitigate that DM-as-puppeteer problem by giving all participants defined mechanics for influencing play. That's what spells do! A player knows a particular spell invokes a variety of effects and he/she therefore choses spells for their intended effects. Why not the same for weapons? The challenge of course is to avoid subsystem overload by limiting the number of sub systems engaged. So, I ditch psionics, unarmed combat, weapon speed, and 5e with all those character options - that's overload.

AC adjustments and counting squares with minis on a grid, however, are both great precisely because they add an easy-to-manage tactical dimension to combat. The grid-mini combo does more than anything else to alleviate cognitive overload. All can see relative position and understand the defined mechanics for moving among a melee - very transparent and impartial. Back to AC adjustments, it's NOT about "realism"; it's about being "plausible" and "historically accurate." Your reference to the footman's flail illustrates the strengths of AC adjustments well; they give players historically accurate incentives to use the full range of medieval weapons in plausible ways (the flail was prized for its ability to crush armor). The drawback of the footman's flail is that it requires both hands - no shield. AC adjustments can and should drive decisions prior to combat. If you know that you are likely to encounter a certain AC type in the journey ahead, then bring the right weapons to deal with it. Again, same logic as for spells. This in turn gives fighters incentive (and value) in carrying more than one weapon. It's a GOOD thing that the AC adjustments incentivize the use of weapons other than long swords. There are very real reasons why all those other weapons evolved and why by the end of the middle ages the halberd dominated; AC adjustments help bring that out in the game.

Without ACs adjustments, 1e weapon choice usually boils down to one of these "gamey" statements, all of which I've actually heard at the table. "I'll pick longsword because most magic weapons are swords and most swords are longswords. Why would I use a two-handed weapon that only does d6 damage when I can use a one-handed weapon (long sword) that does d8 damage? Let's bring a mace in case we meet skeletons."
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
I've got a lot of contention with many of your statements, mainly because you are jumping from point to point on the assumption that your points are universal axioms of the game, when in truth they are highly specific, totally subjective situations. To expand:

Advocates of this "rulings over rules" approach often overlook that such games are not games at all, but rather DM-story telling exercises (making it up as he goes along) with the players just watching for lack of true agency; so they don't really even need to be there! Sub systems with transparent/impartial mechanics can mitigate that DM-as-puppeteer problem by giving all participants defined mechanics for influencing play.
This is a prime example of a very specific approach to the game that shouldn't be used as a blanket statement for everyone else. "Rulings over rules" is used to get past a sticky bit which is slowing down play; it is not part of some greater storytelling agenda to rob players of their agency. It simply means that when the DM is getting real damn tired of his players having to look up the grapple rules every time they try to grapple, he can just say "roll a die; if it beats X, then he's grappled. We are always doing it like that from now on because I am tired of grapples slowing things down". That's all. It does not mean hand-waving of all the rules so the DM can tell a story while the players sit there.

Subsystems should be considered for addition or omission to the game based on two factors: how much fun they add to the game, or how much tedium they cut out of the game. Whenever you have the choice to add or omit something, it should always be based on how much more fun it makes the game (for as much of the party as possible). If your goal is a simulationist game, then simulationist rules are likely to be a good addition because they expand the simulation. But if your game is not a simulationist game, then there's not much fun to be had in adding a rule the requires players to re-sole their boots once a month in order to avoid suffering a movement penalty or whatever.

Back to AC adjustments, it's NOT about "realism"; it's about being "plausible" and "historically accurate." Your reference to the footman's flail illustrates the strengths of AC adjustments well; they give players historically accurate incentives to use the full range of medieval weapons in plausible ways (the flail was prized for its ability to crush armor). The drawback of the footman's flail is that it requires both hands - no shield. AC adjustments can and should drive decisions prior to combat. If you know that you are likely to encounter a certain AC type in the journey ahead, then bring the right weapons to deal with it. Again, same logic as for spells. This in turn gives fighters incentive (and value) in carrying more than one weapon. It's a GOOD thing that the AC adjustments incentivize the use of weapons other than long swords. There are very real reasons why all those other weapons evolved and why by the end of the middle ages the halberd dominated; AC adjustments help bring that out in the game.
First I'd argue that the terms "realism" and "plausible/historically accurate" are synonymous, but that's just nitpicking.

I think Beoric's points about the weapons system is that it seems "unrefined"; that attacking with a weapon is a pretty damn common part of the game, and should therefore be much more streamlined than the table-consulting ways of old. The d20 system made this all very smooth; you can tell if a weapon hits or misses without consulting anything. You roll the die, add the number you always add, and hope you get higher than the AC. Very straightforward, very smooth, very fast.

Yes, some weapons will be better in some situations, just like in real life. But again, newer systems account for that, with Resistances/Vulnerabilities, Advantage/Disadvantage, as well as simplified weapon characteristics (like "Heavy" which simply means small creatures use it with Disadvantage; "Versatile" which means it causes a different damage if being used two-handed as opposed to one-handed; "Finesse" which means you apply your DEX modifier to hit rather than your STR modifier, etc.) Different weapons are made more or less desirable in a situation based on these qualities - the big difference is that they can be tracked in your head, saving reference time/table space. If you have a Heavy weapon, you already know what it entails - you don't need to refer to "Table 3A - Heavy Damage Variants" or whatever. It's just a way a weapon is, like how it's inherently known that bows need ammunition or that a hammer is a bludgeoning weapon.

You get the same considerations and benefits for carrying multiple weapons, but it's just more streamlined. In newer editions, you'll still get situations like "oh shit, skeletons ahead, better swap my sword for a mace", but it's based on skeletons having resistance to piercing & slashing weapons, not on having to look on a table to see that a mace has a +2 against a skeleton AC and a sword has -2, or whatever.


Without ACs adjustments, 1e weapon choice usually boils down to one of these "gamey" statements, all of which I've actually heard at the table. "I'll pick longsword because most magic weapons are swords and most swords are longswords. Why would I use a two-handed weapon that only does d6 damage when I can use a one-handed weapon (long sword) that does d8 damage? Let's bring a mace in case we meet skeletons."
Again, sounds very table-specific, which means it's not good to just declare that the system "should be this way" simply because it better suits your very specific situation. My players, for example, would never say "most magic weapons are longswords", because in my game most magic weapons aren't (I tend to put in more magic bows and daggers than anything else), so why would I ever need to consider that as a criteria to influence which system works better than another? Or as to why a character would use a lower-damage weapon compared to a higher damage one - maybe the player isn't trying to min/max damage output like some DPS WoW player, and just wants a weapon that fits the character thematically?

Thing is, it's not really an issue in newer editions because of the weapon trait system (having the Finesse characteristic, having the Light characteristic, etc.). It's only an issue with the table system, specifically because it's using an outdated format for figuring out different weapon advantages and disadvantages in specific situations. Having to calculate certain modifiers in situation-specific encounters is exactly the sort of bloat that put people off 3e.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I do like the idea of a rapier being a "finesse" weapon and using dex instead of strength adjustments....I might steal that.

(...also, kids running through the streets playing with barrel hoops.)

However, I don't get the d20 to-hit system as being simpler math vs. THAC0---sounds the same.
Have you seen Melan's post, The Sinister Secret of THAC0?
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
You get the same considerations and benefits for carrying multiple weapons, but it's just more streamlined. In newer editions, you'll still get situations like "oh shit, skeletons ahead, better swap my sword for a mace", but it's based on skeletons having resistance to piercing & slashing weapons, not on having to look on a table to see that a mace has a +2 against a skeleton AC and a sword has -2, or whatever.
I don't think anyone is advocating this---weapon vs. AC would only come into play if someone dressed the skeleton's up in suits of full platemail and the party was attacking with a staff.

BTW, that happened in my campaign. Exactly that.
Weird.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Have you seen Melan's post, The Sinister Secret of THAC0?
I get the intent, but the problem with THAC0 is not in its complexity, but rather in it being a roundabout way to figure something that could have been (and has been) made much more straightforward. That's kinda the prevalent theme behind objections to older systems - it's not that's it's tougher or more time consuming, it's that it hasn't been optimized. And that people are advocating it specifically because it isn't optimized, which is nonsensical.

It's akin to doing long division - sure, long division works, and when you know how to do it it's not very complicated (children can do it), but in this age of pocket calculators and doing math in your head, why would you voluntarily go back to doing long division?
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
1. You roll the die
2. add the number you always add
3. hope you get higher than the AC.
Melan on THAC0 said:
  1. Roll 1d20 for your attack
  2. subtract your THAC0 (doesn't change til you level-up)
  3. hope you get higher than the AC [lower if you like descending AC]
I think "optimized" is a bit of a stretch. Six of one, hald dozen of another to me (unless you can only add and not subtract---in which case D&D might not be for you...).
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
I think "optimized" is a bit of a stretch. Six of one, hald dozen of another to me (unless you can only add and not subtract---in which case D&D might not be for you...).
It is optimized though. Optimization just means cutting the extraneous bits - in this case, a whole other set of numbers you have to remember in order to compare against another number.

There are five numbers to use in a THAC0 system: the roll, the THAC0 number, the modified number after applying THAC0, the sum of all further modifiers to apply to that number (magical bonuses or strength modifiers or whatever else your system adds to hit rolls), and the AC. In modern systems you need three: the roll, the modifier to add to the roll, the AC.

Just writing out the process is more like:

1) Roll die
2) Look up THAC0
3) Subtract from THAC0 to get actual hit roll
4) Add relevant modifiers
5) Compare to AC to see if it hits

vs.

1) Roll die
2) Add relevant modifiers
3) Compare to AC to see if it hits
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
It is optimized though. Optimization just means cutting the extraneous bits - in this case, a whole other set of numbers you have to remember in order to compare against another number.

There are five numbers to use in a THAC0 system: the roll, the THAC0 number, the modified number after applying THAC0, the sum of all further modifiers to apply to that number (magical bonuses or strength modifiers or whatever else your system adds to hit rolls), and the AC. In modern systems you need three: the roll, the modifier to add to the roll, the AC.
I saw you palm that card --- how did you compute "the modifier to add to the roll"?

You're trying too hard...5e doesn't need to be better here.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
I saw you palm that card --- how did you compute "the modifier to add to the roll"?
Well, if you go back a few posts in the thread, you will see various rules addendums for "using blunt weapons against plate mail" and whatnot. But there's always some number to add. Using a +2 sword means you've got to add +2 to that number, attacking skeletons with sharp weapons incurs X hit penalty, and so on. All editions have modifiers to add/subtract with attack rolls.

I'm also not very keen on the old-school way monster AC gets referenced under a THAC0 system. Entries are filled with shit like "AC: as chainmail" or whatever, which means I've got to go look SOMETHING ELSE up. It's so much easier to just list a number, like a sane, optimized product would. Insert a "supposed to make the GM's life easier" Bryce-style statement here.

Also, I'll just add this last bit to punctuate my issue here: if your system for calculating a hit roll is complex enough that it warrants entire blog posts about how it's not as complex as it seems, then it's not optimized. Optimization is self-explanatory - something is either easy and straightforward, or it isn't.
 
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Slick

*eyeroll*
Did you know the "e" in 5e stands for "extremely bad"?

This debate almost makes me wonder if OD&D-era Gary was right and too much mechanical weapon differentiation is a sin. Even variable weapon damage strays too far from God's light.
 

gandalf_scion

*eyeroll*
Did you know the "e" in 5e stands for "extremely bad"?

This debate almost makes me wonder if OD&D-era Gary was right and too much mechanical weapon differentiation is a sin. Even variable weapon damage strays too far from God's light.
GURPS illustrates a sin in that regard whereas 1e Weapon Vs AC adjustments are quite reasonable, not the best mind you. As I've said before, LotFP does it best, with about six or seven mods total among all weapons to really bring out the pros and cons of certain iconic weapons. Anyway, in moderation these mods give players good reason to select the right tool for the task at hand and that really adds flavor to the game, as well as some strategy.
 

Pkdragon

A FreshHell to Contend With
I'm also not very keen on the old-school way monster AC gets referenced under a THAC0 system. Entries are filled with shit like "AC: as chainmail" or whatever, which means I've got to go look SOMETHING ELSE up. It's so much easier to just list a number, like a sane, optimized product would. Insert a "supposed to make the GM's life easier" Bryce-style statement here.

I actually love "AC as Chainmail" in monster stats. Makes it easier to use a monster with whatever frankenstein's monster of a system I'm using at any given time. I don't want to figure out which version of D&D a product is using and convert it to the one I'm using, I'd rather just figure out what AC Chainmail is, in my system.

And in fact I usually have the AC numbers for Leather, Chainmail, Plate, and "Shield" memorized. Because those are super important numbers.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Also, I'll just add this last bit to punctuate my issue here: if your system for calculating a hit roll is complex enough that it warrants entire blog posts about how it's not as complex as it seems, then it's not optimized. Optimization is self-explanatory - something is either easy and straightforward, or it isn't.
Touche
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
CONS: It has 1/2 or 1/4 the rate of fire!

PROS: Here's what I have gathered so far...
a) less training/skill --- but how is that reflected in the rules? Maybe troops?
b) heavy cross bow does +1 more damage (vs Large?)
c) slightly better range
d) armed and readied crossbow fire first in combat...

All pretty weak except maybe the last. (Also read 3e lets spell casters use them! Sacrebleu!)

Another side note...Weapon vs AC adjustments seem to be missing from OSRIC.
Crossbows - don't forget a lot of this game is designed for something most tables never use it for - army battles. And there are increasing range to-hit penalties for everything past short range. Getting an extra 20-40 yards of short and medium range over a short bow is not nothing if you're using the entire system. Most don't.

Yes, WvAC is missing from OSRIC. OSRIC was written in a period of much different legal uncertainty. Nobody would have ever done what the latest OSR publishers do in terms of hewing so closely to the originals with an improved layout. If it isn't a algorithmic progression, it isn't in OSRIC, and the WvAC table is very idiosyncratic (which I like - I'm also hoping that 2020 is the year people realize how they sound when using the word "elegant" as applied to RPGs, but I digress). Sticking with mathematical progressions was considered a defensible standard if you're unsure if someone will move to legal action. And in 2006 nobody knew that score.

If (unlike me) you allow the players to know opponent's AC
Remember, it's not their adjusted armor class that's used. It's their armor class type , and only used when the target is wearing real armor. Unless you don't allow your players to know that something they're fighting is wearing chain mail, you're telling them everything they need to know in your normal descriptions that they should apply AC type 5 modifiers to their roll. The target might be AC -1 because they have a dex and magic bonus, but all the player needs to know is that they're wearing chain mail to use the rule. You do not use this when fighting things that aren't wearing armor (like a mastodon or something).

Edit - I should have read all the way down the thread. Bad on me! GS covered it all on the WvAC distinction.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Also, I'll just add this last bit to punctuate my issue here: if your system for calculating a hit roll is complex enough that it warrants entire blog posts about how it's not as complex as it seems, then it's not optimized. Optimization is self-explanatory - something is either easy and straightforward, or it isn't.
A lot of those blog posts are because people insist on mis-stating the system they don't like to improve their point. Example in this thread: weapon speed is still discussed as an always-add, which it very much wasn't. I get that people don't like something, but recasting it into something it's not to add weight to a point isn't necessary.

As far as all the optimized stuff - you know what are highly optimized? TV dinners. You buy individual meals pre-wrapped that can thrown into a microwave and consumed all within 10 minutes. So why do most people turn their nose up to it? Because the flavor sucks, and eating isn't supposed to just be a process. Process-worshippers will not understand this, because they're in the small minority of people (who to be fair make up a likely majority of people in this small hobby) who get excited by the process-books themselves. Not all of us are like that.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Because GS keeps saying the LotFP weapons vs. AC are good, I grabbed the art-free (complimentary) PDF from the web.
Here's all that I could find:

LotFP-weapons1.png
LotFP-weapons2.png

While this is decent, I guess I was hoping for something more.
@gandalf_scion: Is this what you were referring to?
 
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