AD&D is obsolete, Round 2?

[Johann]

Beoric beat me to the punch with another juicy event (2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right), but I'll barge ahead anyway.

(I'm not usually combative online at all, but this tiny little forum has had the most charming debates, so I'll give it a try. I'll probably get my ass handed to me, but maybe, just maybe I can tag-team some jobbers with the mighty DP before backstabbing him over 5e with a ringside chair or something.)

I posit that RAW AD&D is technically obsolete, i.e. objectively better options are available.

AD&D is just like a Ford Model-T. Sure, you can drive over to the mall and bring back your groceries (so it’s not broken, Squeen) but would you recommend it to anyone wanting to buy a car in 2020?

It may still be relevant to some people for a number of subjective reasons, of course:

1. Familiarity.
If you've been running RAW AD&D for decades, then its many rules have become second nature to you and probably don’t bother you. You’re like an old man with an ancient sofa on his porch. After many years, it fits his ass perfectly, better than any new one ever could. That doesn't make it a good sofa by any objective standard. Chances are, if you've been playing AD&D for decades, that your mind now fits it like a glove (or the other way around if you have adapted it via house rules but that’s not what I’m arguing about).

2. Nostalgia.
There's no arguing with this. AD&D may capture another time for you, probably your teenage years. Remember when you rode to town to buy your first car? You were still smelling of horse when you got behind the wheel. Pure magic!

3. Aesthetics.
Rolemaster has different fumble chances for different weapons, typically in the 3% to 5% range, if I remember correctly. I posit that nobody would notice this if a blackbox handled this part of the game. 3% vs. 4%? Give me a break. However, I also believe that just knowing these little details are accounted for can make the game 'feel' more realistic. So if that's your cup of tea, enjoy. But don’t tell me it's technically a better game.

Let’s tackle another set of aspects:

A. AD&D has a huge library of gaming materials, novels etc.
True, but this is not a reason to pick up AD&D because compatibility between AD&D and B/X, the retroclones etc. is very high, so it’s much easier to go with, say, Labyrinth Lord, and adapt G1-3, probably on the fly.

B. AD&D has features that are unique or rarely realized in other games.
See above – just lift what you need and play a better game. That’s what many people did: Play B/X (or a stripped-down or heavily house-ruled version of AD&D that more or less amounts to the same thing) and add (or keep) AD&D’s spells and monsters etc. Heck, I use the old Monster Manual II for its encounter tables (because the new-fangled versions don’t sort by terrain but encounter level which is frigging useless to me).

3. AD&D has a huge player base.
Well, not anymore. I certainly wouldn’t tell a youngster “Hey, if you want to get into RPGs, choose AD&D so you’ll always find players”. But maybe your cousin Rob has been running an AD&D campaign since the 70s or you really like the guys at Knights & Knaves Alehouse and wanna play with them? This is a good reason to get into AD&D, but I think this is about the people (and Rob’s campaign), not the rules.

I guess I’ll take a breather now (to be suplexed by Prince of Nothing or end up in an Anaconda Vise from EOTB, most likely).

 

[EOTB]

5E deserves people who concentrate on what they don't like

 

[The Heretic]

Beoric beat me to the punch with another juicy event (2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right), but I'll barge ahead anyway.

Ahem! That was me, not Beoric. He's the heretic who plays 4e while I'm the Heretic who plays PFRPG.

A lot of the 1e books are just fun to read. I was looking at my old, mutilated PHB last night. Fun time.

 

[squeen]

Count me out of round 2 for now (unless some says something REALLY stupid). I need a breather.
(Got prep for this weekend's game too...yippee!)

I'm just an old man who is trying to finally learn 1e "for reals". (Is there a term for faux nostalgia revealed to be something else entirely?)

I will says this (because I'm a hopeless blabber mouth): without the internet and the OSR, 1e would definately be obsolete/lost ... and I may live in a weird little bubble, but the community feels very vibrant and healthy right now. There's quite a lot of stuff getting published that says OSRIC on it. (More than I could possibly buy/use!) Sure, it's got a lot of weird little cousins running about, but I think everyone knows who the true patriarch of the clan is...or, to switch metaphors, the common thread that weaves it all together.

Oh, and EOTB is everywhere...righting wrongs like the Lone Ranger.

For me at least, it's enough. I'm not alone...trying to hold on to a memory. AD&D is alive and kicking.

Feels good.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

JOHANN, NOOOOO!!!!!

Ah, too late.

 

[Beek Gwenders]

Count me out of round 2 for now (unless some says something REALLY stupid). I need a breather.
(Got prep for this weekend's game too...yippee!)

I'm just an old man who is trying to finally learn 1e "for reals". (Is there a term for faux nostalgia revealed to be something else entirely?)

I will says this (because I'm a hopeless blabber mouth): without the internet and the OSR, 1e would definately be obsolete/lost ... and I may live in a weird little bubble, but the community feels very vibrant and healthy right now. There's quite a lot of stuff getting published that says OSRIC on it. (More than I could possibly buy/use!) Sure, it's got a lot of weird little cousins running about, but I think everyone knows who the true patriarch of the clan is...or, to switch metaphors, the common thread that weaves it all together.

Oh, and EOTB is everywhere...righting wrongs like the Lone Ranger.

For me at least, it's enough. I'm not alone...trying to hold on to a memory. AD&D is alive and kicking.

Feels good.

Good to hear Squeen. I’ve always found that once you get your head around most of the little complications that make it more challenging to run than the ’basic’ versions, it’s a much richer and more rewarding experience.

AD&D has its little idiosyncratic worts. But this makes it like a good old traditional witch in some ways, without the worts, it just wouldn’t be the same thing.

 

[Beoric]

A lot of the 1e books are just fun to read. I was looking at my old, mutilated PHB last night. Fun time.

Yes, I refer to my 1e core books more often than any other source, including the core books for the system I run.

I also love the early modules (not including the A series). I have been thinking about Bryce's general position that well done OSR have learned to do certain things better, and I'm not sure I entirely agree. I mean, formatting a presentation has certainly improved, but I find the older products are easier to drop into any setting. I also find that the inefficiency of the modules - that is all of the extraneous content that is not really focussed on the adventure - allows for greater reusability, not just for new campaigns but as recurring locales within a single campaign. All the unfocussed extra stuff - like the pages of mundane farm families in Hommlet - make the module harder to use on the fly but are a deeper well that you can return to over and over. I read them over and over again and the familiarity lets me take new things out of them every time.

 

[Johann]

I will says this (because I'm a hopeless blabber mouth): without the internet and the OSR, 1e would definately be obsolete/lost ... and I may live in a weird little bubble, but the community feels very vibrant and healthy right now.

Get back into the ring, old man! <tries to grab singlet> Without the internet and the OSR, AD&D would lack better alternatives and not be obsolete at all -- which would make its loss TERRIBLE! An RPG world without reaction tables, morale, campaign tools, % in lair! Just half-dragonborn/tiefling annihilator5/ranger1/ultraslayer44 charop all day. Aaaaaargh!

(I'd rather have that Model-T instead of a horse, pretty please!)

 

[gandalf_scion]

Wow! A spark ignited the powder keg. Anyway, one of the most fun aspects of early editions is: gold = experience points. That drives a swashbuckling/plundering play style that makes for great gaming. 1e added XP for magic items, something that really enables level advancement so campaigns gain momentum over time.

 

[squeen]

Get back into the ring, old man! <tries to grab singlet> Without the internet and the OSR, AD&D would lack better alternatives and not be obsolete at all -- which would make its loss TERRIBLE! An RPG world without reaction tables, morale, campaign tools, % in lair! Just half-dragonborn/tiefling annihilator5/ranger1/ultraslayer44 charop all day. Aaaaaargh!

(I'd rather have that Model-T instead of a horse, pretty please!)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I would mourn the loss of 1e, thinking that the hobby had gone entirely to doggy-doo-doo. The aesthetic and play-style of the later editions has veered into places that hold no appeal to me. Lightning-in-a-bottle would have been been replaced with "New Coke" and a Day-Glo stick, etc.

What I am saying is that any attention (even those who are trying to replace/refine it), is better than being forgotten. That Finch and the K&KA folks have done us all a great service, first with OSRIC, and then with Swords & Wizardry of preserving the original games when they were becoming very hard to come by. Whether that preservation caused, or just cross-pollinated with a renaissance in the hobby, I don't know. (Insert Internet here). I'm just thankful there is so much OD&D and 1e material available now (and I have Bryce to review it for me!). It is currently not "insanity" to want to write and publish new 1e material. Lots of folks are doing it. Their Great Experiment worked.

Even worse for those that wish AD&D would fade away --- us old folk are playing it with the next generation...so there's that too.

Let's ditch the car analogy. AD&D is like Folk Music, or the Blues. It had its hey-day of main-stream popularity (late 60's?), but it never completely disappears, and its The Well artists keep returning to reinvent/refresh themselves when the newer trends burn themselves out (or go astray). There is just something "genuine" there that resonates. (warts and all.)

 

[gandalf_scion]

The QWERTY keyboard analogy is apt here. We all know there are more "efficient" alternatives out there. In fact, within the context of ergonomics, one can prove that QWERTY is worse than the newer alternatives. Yet you are typing on a QWERTY right now.

 

[squeen]

Wow! A spark ignited the powder keg. Anyway, one of the most fun aspects of early editions is: gold = experience points. That drives a swashbuckling/plundering play style that makes for great gaming. 1e added XP for magic items, something that really enables level advancement so campaigns gain momentum over time.

Funny you should mention that about magic-items granting XP. That's one of the thing I am toying with bring to my game right now.
Truthfully, I'm on the fence --- not a huge fan of rapid level advancement, and magic-item are their own reward. One of my players just said recently: "I don't care about the treasure...I just want the magic stuff."

I made this point to Malrex recently, all those tricked out player-skills, XP bonuses, etc. pale in comparison to the transformation that occurs in the Deep Dungeons. Journeying into the Mythic Underworld and returning most often dwarfs all of the "standard" level-advancement stuff---that's how memorable characters are really "made". No, you can't start out as a half-dragon in OD&D---but you sure as heck can return from the dungeon as one (and it ain't always so grand).

 

[gandalf_scion]

"2. Nostalgia.
There's no arguing with this. AD&D may capture another time for you, probably your teenage years. Remember when you rode to town to buy your first car? You were still smelling of horse when you got behind the wheel. Pure magic!"

This is way over rated. The nostalgia wears off in about 72 hours. It has very little to do with a persistent 1e habit. Also, teenage girls bring back much better memories of my teen years than D&D, but I'm not chasing them anymore.

 

[gandalf_scion]

Funny you should mention that about magic-item granting XP. That's one of the thing I am toying with bring to my game right now.
Truthfully, I'm on the fence --- not a huge fan of rapid level advancement, and magic-item are their own reward. One of my players just said recently: "I don't care about the treasure...I just want the magic stuff."

I made this point to Malrex recently, all those tricked out player-skills, XP bonuses, etc. pale in comparison to the transformation that occurs in the Deep Dungeons. Journeying into the Mythic Underworld and returning most often dwarfs all of the "standard" level-advancement stuff---that's how characters are really "made". No, you can start out as a half-dragon in OD&D---but you sure as heck can return from the dungeon as one (and it ain't always so good).

GP (and magic items) = XP is highly recommended. It really focuses the game. And, its does not make level advancement "rapid" so much as "steady." Without that mechanic, level advancement is slow.

 

[squeen]

OK. Yes, we have stalled out around level 6-8. The party has gotten large too (with henchmen/allies). The XP split, even at 1/2 share for NPCs, is noticeable.

So, who gets the item XP then? Everyone or just the single owner?

 

[gandalf_scion]

"1. Familiarity.
If you've been running RAW AD&D for decades, then its many rules have become second nature to you and probably don’t bother you. "

Here's another one of those "assumptions" I referred to earlier. The 1e rules DO bother me, but so do the 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, etc. They all have imperfections and areas for improvement. So, just pick one and season to taste.

 

[gandalf_scion]

OK. Yes, we have stalled out around level 6-8. The party has gotten large too (with henchmen/allies). The XP split, even at 1/2 share for NPCs, is noticeable.

So, who gets the item XP then? Everyone or just the single owner?

My groups have always split the experience so that each PC gets an equal share and each "follower" gets a half share. Remember the motive here is "capture the flag." Once that's done, who carries the flag is of less importance.

Also, I like your mention of henchmen and allies. That's an oft neglected element of earlier editions. An adult reread of the 1e PHB and DMG makes it clear that the original authors intended for players to flesh out their parties with those sorts of followers. With them, that silly one minute combat round makes more sense because, even in a fight, it takes time to manage all those minions (command and control).

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

Funnily enough, the book that I think provoked this dispute - the AD&D 1e DMG - is IMHO the one that it's hardest to make the case for being "obsolete" because so many of the appendices at the back remain useful even if you're not playing D&D, and are hard to obtain in a single volume outside of the AD&D 1e DMG.

 

[EOTB]

XP by the (1E) book:

Monster XP - DM divides monster XP however they choose; the book advises equally
Magic Item XP - goes to the character obtaining ownership of the item
Gold XP (including gold from selling items not kept) - the players determine how money is split, and XP is given for the gold as split to each character
Challenge Factor: all of the above presumes a challenging environment. If a group of 10th level characters decide to slum on level 1 of a dungeon, the DM is within their rights to reduce the XP by a % they deem fit. In practicality, most players want to get bigger hoards and so manage their challenge rating just fine. I've not had to do this. But if there's a group of timid players this is a way to address an appetite for pushovers. But I wouldn't use it unless it's clear the players are purposefully trying to avoid any meaningful risk.

How I do it varies in one small detail; consumables (scrolls, potions) don't give XP for merely packing it around, you have to use it and then I give the person using it XP on the spot. But if you packed it around and lost it to a fireball, you got zilch. Figure out a way to use it that helps move the game along so I can hand out more magic items, please.

I'm all for XP for magic items. Low levels are fun for newbs. I advise players to sell more magic items at low level to advance faster, and also to strategically divide the money so that characters near to next levels gain them before everyone leaves on the next heist; er, I mean quest. It doesn't do the party any good to equally divide gold XP and have 1 character level instead of 3. 3 characters leveling means more people likely survive the next adventure and have more power on it, and everyone gets more gold XP the next time.

Yes, this is an example of how 1E encourages metagaming. And I think the game is better for it.

 

[Johann]

@EOTB:

5e deserves people who concentrate on what they don't like.

Ouch. Somewhat lessened because I don’t care for 5e at all, but you do have a point.

@Heretic: Your heresy has been correctly noted now. My apologies.

@Pseudoephedrine and @squeen

the AD&D 1e DMG - is IMHO the one that it's hardest to make the case for being "obsolete" because so many of the appendices at the back remain useful even if you're not playing D&D, and are hard to obtain in a single volume outside of the AD&D 1e DMG.

its The Well artists keep returning to reinvent/refresh themselves when the newer trends burn themselves out (or go astray).

I sort of agree – AD&D is a seminal work and any serious RPG aficionado should (and does) know it. My earlier argument that one can just pick and choose doesn’t quite wash, either, because there really isn’t anything quite like it (as Pseudoephedrine points out).

However, if a friend’s teenage kids (or some adult hardcore boardgaming friends, for that matter) told me that they wanted to get into RPGs, see what all the fuss is about etc., I would not recommend AD&D even if I had a shrink-wrapped copy of the reprints from a tombola to give away. I’d point them to LL or LotFP etc. (and encourage them to trust the rules at first and then to start modifying them to suit their needs).

And if one of them pointed to my AD&D books and asked “Hey, what about that?”, I’d say: “That’s one of the greatest works in the field of RPGs, deeply influential and beloved, well worth studying and stealing from. It broke new ground in its day - not all of it fertile, but how could they have known? – but today, it’s a museum piece.” (Notice the burglar-proof glass and the spotlights?)

And then I'd warn them of the evils of 5e, of course. ;-)