Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
It they did that I'm pretty sure they would have to apply GST, and it doesn't look like they do.
Best laid out non-dungeon module?
- Thread starter Two orcs
- Start date
TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
Well, the return address is somewhere in Canada every time I order something. So I've never paid any import duties, either way.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I
Interestingly, it seems they only include it for premium shipping, which could potentially make premium shipping cheaper in the long run.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
OK. It's true I haven't seen much from the 2nd-5th edition stuff, but after careful consideration of my collection, here are my nominees:
Huso's A Fabled City of Brass --- I think it is visually striking in an amazing consistent way. Well labeled sections, and almost the platonic ideal in it's use of inset maps. Where it probably falls short IMO is in the organization of text within each keyed-entry. It doesn't ramble, but there is no clear format (use of bold, bullets, etc.). Leveraging his background in video game design, Huso created a polished gem. If this were solely a beauty contest, he'd win hands down.
Fullerton's Many Gates of Gann --- There's a reason this publication keeps coming up in conversations about "how to do right". Not only is the content fresh and exciting, the presentation is modern and well laid out. The editing is tight, with little to no fat. The maps are great too. Everything is just there, at-a-glance, with great use of sidebar blocks. Eight years after publication, it still remains a high-water mark.
Lux's Castle Xyntillan --- This thing is huge, but the way it is broken down is so intuitive, it's easy to understand. The text is quick and to the point. Whereas Huso's City is lush in color and presentation, Castle X is minimalist black & white --- reminding us the game is to be played at the table, not at the reader's fingertips. The use of bullets and indentation is formidable, so that---despite its OSR look-and-feel---it's a modern document. My one quibble would be that I think it could have benefited from a denser type-setting. Both the font-size and large margins means few entries per page, which I believe makes it marginally harder to absorb (and find) information and discern its structure. All in all, this product deserves all the praise it has received and makes you want to play D&D tonight. Hat's off to Melan.
Hawkins' Darkness at Nekemte --- Looking at this one more closely, I am going to proclaim it my "winner". The font/layout is modern, and I believe it best internalizes the Bryce-ian design principles through it's evocative descriptions, summary tables, inset maps, and cross-linking of expositional sub-paragraphs through bold text. The black & white artwork perfectly compliments the content. Everything is tight and crisp. My one nit (and others contenders fail here too) is that the keyed text precedes the map. While I am fine with maps-in-an-appendix, much like walking into a museum --- I want to "see" the thing first...then you can go into all the little detailed descriptions. Map-before-text ... ALWAYS. Although smaller, I think Nekemte is a notch above its mega-dungeon cousin (Gunderholfen)---more focused too. Clearly Hawk learned a bit on the first one, and is now hitting his stride. WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER.
An honorable mention goes to Chainsaw's Lost Treasure of Atlantis, but we all know how his publishers tripped him up on format. The content, non-linearity, and multiple connected location is pretty much the type of adventure I wish I was producing. The Monkeyblood Design (Glynn Seal) maps are world-class too.
So that's my short-list for the best of the New (Old) School. These are the places I hope my players will go some day, but I haven't been lucky enough to really kick the tires.
I also think there is room for improvement. "The Dungeon" works organizationally because of its compartmentalized nature. I haven't yet seen Arden Vul, but so far I haven't witnessed anyone really nailing down the problem of multiple levels-of-detail. I'm still waiting for the product that effortlessly contains all the layers of the campaign onion.
Lastly, this wasn't a content competition (as originally asked). If so, more of Matt Finch's stuff would probably have made my list.
Huso's A Fabled City of Brass --- I think it is visually striking in an amazing consistent way. Well labeled sections, and almost the platonic ideal in it's use of inset maps. Where it probably falls short IMO is in the organization of text within each keyed-entry. It doesn't ramble, but there is no clear format (use of bold, bullets, etc.). Leveraging his background in video game design, Huso created a polished gem. If this were solely a beauty contest, he'd win hands down.
Fullerton's Many Gates of Gann --- There's a reason this publication keeps coming up in conversations about "how to do right". Not only is the content fresh and exciting, the presentation is modern and well laid out. The editing is tight, with little to no fat. The maps are great too. Everything is just there, at-a-glance, with great use of sidebar blocks. Eight years after publication, it still remains a high-water mark.
Lux's Castle Xyntillan --- This thing is huge, but the way it is broken down is so intuitive, it's easy to understand. The text is quick and to the point. Whereas Huso's City is lush in color and presentation, Castle X is minimalist black & white --- reminding us the game is to be played at the table, not at the reader's fingertips. The use of bullets and indentation is formidable, so that---despite its OSR look-and-feel---it's a modern document. My one quibble would be that I think it could have benefited from a denser type-setting. Both the font-size and large margins means few entries per page, which I believe makes it marginally harder to absorb (and find) information and discern its structure. All in all, this product deserves all the praise it has received and makes you want to play D&D tonight. Hat's off to Melan.
Hawkins' Darkness at Nekemte --- Looking at this one more closely, I am going to proclaim it my "winner". The font/layout is modern, and I believe it best internalizes the Bryce-ian design principles through it's evocative descriptions, summary tables, inset maps, and cross-linking of expositional sub-paragraphs through bold text. The black & white artwork perfectly compliments the content. Everything is tight and crisp. My one nit (and others contenders fail here too) is that the keyed text precedes the map. While I am fine with maps-in-an-appendix, much like walking into a museum --- I want to "see" the thing first...then you can go into all the little detailed descriptions. Map-before-text ... ALWAYS. Although smaller, I think Nekemte is a notch above its mega-dungeon cousin (Gunderholfen)---more focused too. Clearly Hawk learned a bit on the first one, and is now hitting his stride. WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER.
An honorable mention goes to Chainsaw's Lost Treasure of Atlantis, but we all know how his publishers tripped him up on format. The content, non-linearity, and multiple connected location is pretty much the type of adventure I wish I was producing. The Monkeyblood Design (Glynn Seal) maps are world-class too.
So that's my short-list for the best of the New (Old) School. These are the places I hope my players will go some day, but I haven't been lucky enough to really kick the tires.
I also think there is room for improvement. "The Dungeon" works organizationally because of its compartmentalized nature. I haven't yet seen Arden Vul, but so far I haven't witnessed anyone really nailing down the problem of multiple levels-of-detail. I'm still waiting for the product that effortlessly contains all the layers of the campaign onion.
Lastly, this wasn't a content competition (as originally asked). If so, more of Matt Finch's stuff would probably have made my list.
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Thats my trouble though, a lot of those could be considered Dungeons right?
What is a dungeon? Castle X is often above ground but we still associate it with dungeon crawl right?
What if the adventure is on a skyship? That potentially could be a dungeon too
What is a dungeon? Castle X is often above ground but we still associate it with dungeon crawl right?
What if the adventure is on a skyship? That potentially could be a dungeon too
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Far as I'm concerned, any finite area where progression is funneled through chokepoints (even circumventable ones) is a dungeon. As it be, this applies to most indoor areas which - by definition of having walls and a ceiling - funnels the party through it.
A skyship itself would be considered a dungeon if players are meant to move around it in a specific way (using stairs, entering doors, etc.), but the area around it can be considered non-dungeon provided the players are free to embark/disembark at their leisure and not via some mooring point.
That being said, I think it's high time we come up with a term to replace "dungeon", as that one has connotations that do not apply to 95% of things classified in that way (i.e. most "dungeons" aren't prisons).
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
You know what, I've agreed with most of Bryce' picks, but Gates of the Gann just never did it for me. There needed to be a greater variety of critters for a dungeon of that size. Fighting the same thing over and over again is monotonous. And, the monster at the end is weak as hell for a finale. This dungeon needed a boss monster.
Heresy, I know.
Heresy, I know.
I can dig that. If thats the definition, then don't a lot of the adventures tossed out here qualify as dungeons?
Castle X is, Many Gates would be too. Best Non dungeon layout is so hard because I think so many things fall under that.
Hot springs is not a dungeon but has dungeons in it? (Observatory)
Idk its tricky
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
@Osrnoob : What is your concern with regards to dungeons? I think they work for the hobby, but outdoors (hex or point-crawl) can work too. Even those are usually just means of getting you to an interesting site (i.e. dungeon or dungeon stand-in), where the details shrink to human scale.
@The1True : I have not been able to lure my players to the location where I've placed Gann, so I can't speak for play. Organizationally, it's jumps off the page at you. The content strikes me as original and fresh without being gonzo or artsy. It looks to strikes a perfect balance for old-school play...but sure, tweak it to your taste (not heresy at all). Great products allow you to rift your own solo.
@The1True : I have not been able to lure my players to the location where I've placed Gann, so I can't speak for play. Organizationally, it's jumps off the page at you. The content strikes me as original and fresh without being gonzo or artsy. It looks to strikes a perfect balance for old-school play...but sure, tweak it to your taste (not heresy at all). Great products allow you to rift your own solo.
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Pretty much. Sandboxes, point-crawls and urban adventures are basically the only types of adventures that don't fit the "dungeon" tag, but they almost always contain dungeons (because dungeons provide much-needed structure, and confine the adventure to specific situations that allow for players to solve problems and have more fun).
Isle of Dread (a hexcrawl) is the classic "non-dungeon" module example. As is something like Misty Isles of the Eld. They both have dungeons in them, but are not themselves considered dungeons (at least, by my definition of the term).
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Well, @Two orcs was originally asking about non-flowchart style modules, which would rule out pointcrawls as well. @Osrnoob is just pointing out that the modules that have been thrown out there don't answer the question.
I suspect I get where @Two orcs is coming from. I'm not aware of any good examples of hexcrawls in play, and I suspect he is looking for a module that handles a "no walls" environment well as an example of how to do it. I'm not as plugged in to the new modules as a lot of you, but judging from the fact that the response to a call for "not dungeons" was a series of "dungeons", and the reactions to that discussion a while back regarding hex notations, nobody else knows a good example either.
The crawl in X1 is a whole lot of sameness, and it doesn't really assist the DM in knowing how to narrate hex after hex of essentially the same terrain. I know of other hexcrawls but I'm not sure they do a better job of explaining how to do it. I'm not aware of any decent procedures for city crawls. Does anyone know about a decent product for either of these things that I don't?
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Has anyone tried he-who-shall-not-be-named's Vornheim? I have not, but it usually gets tossed in as the defacto city-adventure-done-right in these types of conversations.
TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
No good hexcrawls? Really? I didn't realize that was a problem. Everyone talks about Hot Springs Island being the best thing since sliced bread, but I've never looked at it. I ran a hexcrawl at home that worked tremendously which was heavily based on ktrey's '100 wilderness hexes' project, which I never tire of talking about:
I am running an overly-huge city game right now, and Vornheim sits on the shelf ready to go - but almost never gets pulled out. A few of the tables in the back are cool (random NPCs, nobles, etc) and I like the dungeons he included (the Zoo especially, I have incorporated into a larger adventure location - maybe a report on that some day). I have never used the die drop tables or the 'urbancrawl rules for slacker DMs,' preferring a looser pointcrawl approach. I don't want to actually keep track of *what street we're on* unless it is vitally important.
Also, I think Vornheim is so distinctive in flavour that it won't fit in most people's games.
For citycrawls, I agree that there is no 'definitive product' that we can rely on. I use a shitmix of stuff I've obtained from all over. My application has not been consistent, varying based on how I'm feeling, how prepared I am and where we are in the session.
- Melan's Nocturnal Table is fucking great (and its predecessor, Matt Finch's City Encounters)
- Judges Guild - City-State of the World Emperor (Has its flaws, but some great shit inside. I have not yet gotten around to the original CSWE)
- Midkemia Press - Cities (old, but has the right idea)
- Courtney's On Downtime & Demesnes
- the odd bit & piece from Vornheim
- Ben L talks about citycrawling on his blog, and I like his approach - http://maziriansgarden.blogspot.com/2020/10/rules-for-citycrawling-in-dreamlands.html (He looks at it like a pointcrawl, but the connections between points are amorphous. You have to find them by going exploring in the city)
- Last Gasp's Corpathium rules - https://www.lastgaspgrimoire.com/in-corpathium/ (very specific flavour, but the encounter tables are pretty good)
We are just scratching the surface of city-adventuring though. My players have not yet realized just how MUCH STUFF there is in the city to do, as usual my hints are too subtle.
I am running an overly-huge city game right now, and Vornheim sits on the shelf ready to go - but almost never gets pulled out. A few of the tables in the back are cool (random NPCs, nobles, etc) and I like the dungeons he included (the Zoo especially, I have incorporated into a larger adventure location - maybe a report on that some day). I have never used the die drop tables or the 'urbancrawl rules for slacker DMs,' preferring a looser pointcrawl approach. I don't want to actually keep track of *what street we're on* unless it is vitally important.
Also, I think Vornheim is so distinctive in flavour that it won't fit in most people's games.
For citycrawls, I agree that there is no 'definitive product' that we can rely on. I use a shitmix of stuff I've obtained from all over. My application has not been consistent, varying based on how I'm feeling, how prepared I am and where we are in the session.
- Melan's Nocturnal Table is fucking great (and its predecessor, Matt Finch's City Encounters)
- Judges Guild - City-State of the World Emperor (Has its flaws, but some great shit inside. I have not yet gotten around to the original CSWE)
- Midkemia Press - Cities (old, but has the right idea)
- Courtney's On Downtime & Demesnes
- the odd bit & piece from Vornheim
- Ben L talks about citycrawling on his blog, and I like his approach - http://maziriansgarden.blogspot.com/2020/10/rules-for-citycrawling-in-dreamlands.html (He looks at it like a pointcrawl, but the connections between points are amorphous. You have to find them by going exploring in the city)
- Last Gasp's Corpathium rules - https://www.lastgaspgrimoire.com/in-corpathium/ (very specific flavour, but the encounter tables are pretty good)
We are just scratching the surface of city-adventuring though. My players have not yet realized just how MUCH STUFF there is in the city to do, as usual my hints are too subtle.
I agree there are good Hexcrawls but the layout for those products always lags behind dungeons to my mind.
The question was about best layout for non dungeons and its tricky. I really like Nod (only used issue 6-7 and the hell crawl issues) but again the layout is not what makes those products right?
Bone marshes is great but I had to work a bit to use that right now. NPC charts and notes on the cells, things are described once across sections. Layout could use some work.
Its a really tough catagory to fill.
The question was about best layout for non dungeons and its tricky. I really like Nod (only used issue 6-7 and the hell crawl issues) but again the layout is not what makes those products right?
Bone marshes is great but I had to work a bit to use that right now. NPC charts and notes on the cells, things are described once across sections. Layout could use some work.
Its a really tough catagory to fill.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
The problem with every urbancrawl system I have ever looked at is, unless you are in some dystopian city where you can expect to be frequently under assault in one way or another, the exploration of a city is more interesting for characters than it is for players. It rarely matters in any practical sense whether you see cool things, or get lost for a while. In a normal urban environment you eventually find the smithy or dry goods store or whatever, and if there is any nod to realism then combat breaking our or being pickpocketed on the way is expected to be a very rare occurrence. And playing out every trip to the corner store on the off chance something interesting will happen after 30 or so trips is hardly ideal.
The other problem is, if for some reason there is time pressure, or getting lost can be dangerous because you could wind up in the wrong neighborhood, the systems for finding out how long it takes to get somewhere or whether you get lost are invariably random and completely independent of any application of player skill.
Unless you are playing in an Escape from New York scenario, or crawling through a particularly dangerous slum, or knocking on doors trying to find the assassin's guild, you pretty much have to give up on exploration as a pillar driving urban play. Exploring an urban environment with a relatively functional social order just isn't interesting in play.
The other problem is, if for some reason there is time pressure, or getting lost can be dangerous because you could wind up in the wrong neighborhood, the systems for finding out how long it takes to get somewhere or whether you get lost are invariably random and completely independent of any application of player skill.
Unless you are playing in an Escape from New York scenario, or crawling through a particularly dangerous slum, or knocking on doors trying to find the assassin's guild, you pretty much have to give up on exploration as a pillar driving urban play. Exploring an urban environment with a relatively functional social order just isn't interesting in play.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
Fever-Dreaming Marlinko has interested me for a while, tho' I've never run it. Bryce mentions it as his favourite city supplement, and I am in strong agreement. I dropped it into a planned campaign that ended up becoming something else entirely (a hexcrawl / megadungeon in a magical faux-Everest) and thus never got a chance to use it, unfortunately.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
I think the important aspect of cities is the rumors....and all the shit that is going on. In dungeons you may have 1-2 goals and have walls that restrict your choices somewhat....its easy for a DM.
In a city...its rumors...its activity...its mini dungeons..its politics...its FACTIONS...its weird buildings...strange alleys...graveyards....its quests...its hearing adventure hooks/quests WHILE you are trying to GO on an adventure hook/quest. Its the 'open' feel of it all for the players, while the DM supplies rumors and adventure hooks (these become the 'walls')--and being able to flip to the correct appendix to run the mini dungeon/building/alley/sewer/whatever when the PCs finally bite on something. The PCs should feel overwhelmed!! And the DM should feel prepared with numerous appendices and rumor tables to present that openess...soon your players will be running to the dungeons to escape all the choices. Not to mention all the bards following them, screaming songs of their tales...because its done right there--on the streets. That's a city to me.
One day...I'll show you what I mean with Coppercore and Vermilion.
In a city...its rumors...its activity...its mini dungeons..its politics...its FACTIONS...its weird buildings...strange alleys...graveyards....its quests...its hearing adventure hooks/quests WHILE you are trying to GO on an adventure hook/quest. Its the 'open' feel of it all for the players, while the DM supplies rumors and adventure hooks (these become the 'walls')--and being able to flip to the correct appendix to run the mini dungeon/building/alley/sewer/whatever when the PCs finally bite on something. The PCs should feel overwhelmed!! And the DM should feel prepared with numerous appendices and rumor tables to present that openess...soon your players will be running to the dungeons to escape all the choices. Not to mention all the bards following them, screaming songs of their tales...because its done right there--on the streets. That's a city to me.
One day...I'll show you what I mean with Coppercore and Vermilion.