History of Planar Development in AD&D: 1977-1980

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Pretty dang interesting read. It's curious how D&D has changed very little across editions when it comes to the planes; most of the history remains surprisingly unscathed. Sure, there was a lot of gamification (cough Spelljammer cough Planescape cough) and spotlighting (cough Avernus cough), but overall the modern planes feel very unchanged from the original ones.

Tangential question: if we presume the original intent of the Cthulhu mythos canonically being a part of Greyhawk (per the first edition of Deities and Demigods), where would you say his pantheon fits into the cosmological model of the time? My answer is torn between the depths of the Abyss, the windy void of Pandemonium, or the unknowable nothingness of the Ethereal plane. "Great tentacles of the deepest depths", if you will.
 

grodog

Should be playing D&D instead
Pretty dang interesting read.
Thanks!

It's curious how D&D has changed very little across editions when it comes to the planes; most of the history remains surprisingly unscathed. Sure, there was a lot of gamification (cough Spelljammer cough Planescape cough) and spotlighting (cough Avernus cough), but overall the modern planes feel very unchanged from the original ones.
That’s a good point, and it’s worthwhile for me to keep in mind as I write future pieces in the series. There’s not a lot of big changes to the planar architecture until 3.x, although things continue to evolve over the 1980s.

Tangential question: if we presume the original intent of the Cthulhu mythos canonically being a part of Greyhawk (per the first edition of Deities and Demigods), where would you say his pantheon fits into the cosmological model of the time? My answer is torn between the depths of the Abyss, the windy void of Pandemonium, or the unknowable nothingness of the Ethereal plane. "Great tentacles of the deepest depths", if you will.
I think that’s quite reasonable. I would likely place the Great Old Ones into both an alternate Prime and planetary/astronomical origins, to grant them their extra-solar demesnes while accommodating their higher-dimensional/planar aspects too.

If you’re particularly interested in the Lovecraftian aspects of Greyhawk, you might want to pick up Rob Kuntz’s El Raja Ket Archive (on USB or DVD), and read his essay at: https://www.facebook.com/share/16SV415Rj1/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Allan.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
It's curious how D&D has changed very little across editions when it comes to the planes; most of the history remains surprisingly unscathed. Sure, there was a lot of gamification (cough Spelljammer cough Planescape cough) and spotlighting (cough Avernus cough), but overall the modern planes feel very unchanged from the original ones.
I don't have a strong opinion with respect to the lore, but I'm not sure I agree with that the feel hasn't changed, at least post-3e. I feel like getting rid of the highly structured great wheel in favour of messier and more organic planar relationships, dumping the positive and negative material planes, and introducing the Shadowfell, the Feywild, and the Far Realm, had at least some impact on the flavour of the planes. And earlier than that, I think the invention of Sigil also changed the way players interact with the planes.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I don't have a strong opinion with respect to the lore, but I'm not sure I agree with that the feel hasn't changed, at least post-3e. I feel like getting rid of the highly structured great wheel in favour of messier and more organic planar relationships, dumping the positive and negative material planes, and introducing the Shadowfell, the Feywild, and the Far Realm, had at least some impact on the flavour of the planes. And earlier than that, I think the invention of Sigil also changed the way players interact with the planes.
Ah the 4e changes... yeah, I forgot about those. 4e seemed to lean hard into cross-planar stuff (what with Keep On The Shadowfell being the de facto introductory adventure) and seemed like it was really trying to make fey stuff the next big thing.

Perhaps divisively, I find the actual configuration of the D&D cosmos to be entirely irrelevant. Players always "blip" around from plane to plane; it's not like they follow an actual cosmic spoke to an actual cosmic wheel hub and cross planes like some sort of geopolitical border. If a party travels to the Nine Hells, for example, the DM very rarely makes them trek through the Astral Plane to get there. It's more like "I cast Plane Shift and we are in Hell now".
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
What I'm most interested to hear/read about it successful and novel planear adventures in the context of material-plane rooted campaigns. Similarly with planetary excursions.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Ah the 4e changes... yeah, I forgot about those. 4e seemed to lean hard into cross-planar stuff (what with Keep On The Shadowfell being the de facto introductory adventure) and seemed like it was really trying to make fey stuff the next big thing.

Perhaps divisively, I find the actual configuration of the D&D cosmos to be entirely irrelevant. Players always "blip" around from plane to plane; it's not like they follow an actual cosmic spoke to an actual cosmic wheel hub and cross planes like some sort of geopolitical border. If a party travels to the Nine Hells, for example, the DM very rarely makes them trek through the Astral Plane to get there. It's more like "I cast Plane Shift and we are in Hell now".
It didn't stop with 4e though. See this depiction of the elemental planes in the 5e DMG:

Elemental Planes.png

What I'm most interested to hear/read about it successful and novel planear adventures in the context of material-plane rooted campaigns. Similarly with planetary excursions.
So, Eberron thing, the Eberron planes are different from the rest of the D&D planes. Instead of representing alignments, they represent concepts. So there is a plane of dreams, and a plane of war. And Fernia, the Sea of Fire, doesn't just contain fire in the "4 humours" sense, but instead represents the destructive nature of fire, and people's fear of it.

But what brings it home to the material plane, is that the planes have a direct impact on the world. The planes move in and out of alignment with Eberron, and it makes a difference whether a plane is "coterminous", waxing or waning, or "remote". So if Fernia is coterminous, fires are more likely to get out of control, and fire spells might be more effective; but when Fernia is remote, it might be harder to start fires or keep them going, and fire spells might be less effective. So the original 3e cosmology looked like this:

OIP-3917835582.jpg

Not only that, but there are permanent "manifest zones" in the world, where a particular plane may have a greater influence on the world, and one or more aspects of that plane may be duplicated in the material world. And often those manifest zones, when they are discovered, are tapped for their particular properties. So the city of Sharn, for instance, is located in a manifest zone to Syrania, the Azure Sky, and is impacted by the quality of that plane that allows things that are up to stay up. So in Sharn you can jump further, and flying spells enhanced, and it affects the architecture because they can build these enormously tall towers, and the local cabs are small airships (basically a flying carpet shaped like a boat) which only work within the manifest zone.

Manifest zones can also act as portals for planar travel, especially if the plane in question is coterminous. So long before the PCs have access to that kind of magic, they could find themselves in a situation where they need to go into a plane via a manifest zone, and get out before the plane ceases to be coterminous. Or there could be a portal to Shavarath, the Battleground, which opens whenever blood is shed in a particular manifest zone.

There can also be planar incursions. By default, an Eberron campaign is set during a period where creatures from Dal Quor, the Region of Dreams, are possessing people and putting into effect plans to influence people's dreams on a world-wide scale, because they believe people's dreams can impact on the environment in Dal Quor. And fiends from Khyber frequently enter the material plane to try to free the demonic Overlords from their prisons, by influencing mortals to do things that satisfy the conditions of certain prophecies.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
It didn't stop with 4e though. See this depiction of the elemental planes in the 5e DMG
I mean, they've mapped out the Elemental Planes (which kinda defeats the intent of a vast expanse of one thing, but whatever), sure. But even still, a lot of what's there is legacy stuff from early in the game's history. The City of Brass, the Isle of Dread, Aaqa, the paraelemental planes... all were established pre-4/5e. It wasn't called "The Swamp of Oblivion" or whatever, but the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze did already exist, as is the case with mostly everything else on that map. It was all arranged the same way too, encircling the Material Plane like a halo.

From what I've seen, newer editions just kinda took what was already there and properly formalized it (though Shadowfell/Feywild are exceptions - they were 100% newly invented for 4e). I'd say that in terms of incorporating all the planar diaspora penned over the decades and minimizing the retcon of existing materials, all things considered they did a pretty good job preserving the cosmological axioms for the baseline settings. Very few toes stepped on.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I think that’s quite reasonable. I would likely place the Great Old Ones into both an alternate Prime and planetary/astronomical origins, to grant them their extra-solar demesnes while accommodating their higher-dimensional/planar aspects too.
Aliens rather than Outsiders, eh? I can truck with that.

Makes one wonder - if there's a Prime Material Plane, could there be Secondary or Tertiary Material Planes too? Are alternate realities and multiverses a thing in the D&D cosmology? Is "plane" just another word for "alternate reality"?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
From what I've seen, newer editions just kinda took what was already there and properly formalized it (though Shadowfell/Feywild are exceptions - they were 100% newly invented for 4e). I'd say that in terms of incorporating all the planar diaspora penned over the decades and minimizing the retcon of existing materials, all things considered they did a pretty good job preserving the cosmological axioms for the baseline settings. Very few toes stepped on.
I'm pretty sure the Feywild was cribbed from 3e Eberron's "Thelanis, the Faerie Court".

I was reminded earlier today that the Plane of Shadow was a thing, so that might be the precursor to the Shadowfell. But not nearly as developed.

What I'm most interested to hear/read about it successful and novel planear adventures in the context of material-plane rooted campaigns. Similarly with planetary excursions.
One thing I forgot when I was responding to this above, I think Ravenloft's "Domains of Dread" modules are all notionally extraplanar.

Also, IIRC in Gygax's home campaign many of the dungeon levels of Castle Greyhawk were extraplanar.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I mean, they've mapped out the Elemental Planes (which kinda defeats the intent of a vast expanse of one thing, but whatever), sure.
Also, I don't think it is supposed to be a map in three dimensional space so much as a conceptual model of relationships.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Also, I don't think it is supposed to be a map in three dimensional space so much as a conceptual model of relationships.
Was the source material ever explicit about that? I mean, it tracks. I just want to know if there's canon to it.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Was the source material ever explicit about that? I mean, it tracks. I just want to know if there's canon to it.
I just skimmed the planar travel section of the 5e DMD, and there is no mention of going from one plane to another by just walking there. It's all a discussion of portals and spells like plane shift, or astral or ethereal travel. This section reads very much like older editions, actually.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
What's interesting is the map you linked above very much makes it look like you can travel the planes by walking them.

You go far enough on the Sea of Worlds (Plane of Water) and you run into the Sea of Ice (Paraelemental Plane of Ice), and then eventually the ice drops away into the Mistral Reach (Plane of Air), and so on. Just curious if that was actually stated, or purely allegorical.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I don't think it was expressly stated.

I doubt this was the intention, but I think it would be more interesting if the planes were both infinite and connected, depending on the circumstances, or maybe the path you take, or your intention. I feel like planer travel by default should be deeply weird, and heavily influenced by metaphor. I mean, Moorcock's books are in Appendix N, that would have been a decent place to start.

I never liked the Great Wheel (or in earlier incarnations, the Great Rectangle?), because of how rigid and (to me) inorganic it seemed. And most of the planes seemed pretty dull, there was never any real reason to visit them. I think the 1e Manual of the Planes is probably my least used book, and I'm pretty sure nobody I gamed with ever used it for anything.

For a comparison of approaches, here is the introduction for the Plane of Fire in the 1e Manual of the Planes (1987)

Screenshot 2025-04-24 09.56.26.pngScreenshot 2025-04-24 09.56.38.png

This is the introduction in the 3.5e DMG (2003)

Screenshot 2025-04-24 10.11.24.png
4e doesn't have a separate Plane of Fire, it smooshes all the elemental planes into one "Elemental Chaos". Note this works well with the image of the elemental planes from the 5e DMG. I have no strong opinions about this change.

4e DMG (2008)

Screenshot 2025-04-24 10.34.12.png

The 5e DMG (2014); a kinder, gentler, but perhaps more interesting approach to the plane.

Screenshot 2025-04-24 10.13.44.png

Exploring Eberron (2020)

Screenshot 2025-04-24 09.57.11.png
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Interesting. Looks like 5e/Eberron wanted to make the place more explorable (both a good and a bad choice), and 4e took the OG Elder Elemental Eye thing and ran wild with it. 3e looks like it was going for a more "points of light" approach to travelling the Fire Plane (not expected to survive outside of settled areas).

I kinda like the original version the most though - a universe of fire should be as hostile as possible, I think.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Did you notice this passage in the 1e version? I missed the implication when I read it before.

The borders of the plane of Fire are only slightly cooler than the inner parts of the plane. Toward the plane of elemental Air, the amount of burnable materials increases, and large pockets of haze and soot collect until the fires of the plane are reduced and the traveler reaches the para-elemental plane of Smoke. In the opposite direction, toward the plane of elemental Earth, more ground appears, thick basalt columns form, as well as less impervious materials that flow under the effects of the heat. When the fire is finally subsumed in the heat of the surrounding rock, the plane of para-elemental Magma, home of the magmen, is reached.
And yet there is this at page 24:

Movement is both relatively easy and devilishly difficult in the inner planes. A traveler can walk, fly, or pass through stone (depending on the plane he is in). However, the inner planes are infinitely large, so that it is physically impossible for a traveler to walk (or swim or fly) from one side of the plane of elemental Water to the other unaided. The ever-changing nature of these planes can reduce a simpte jaunt between outposts or citadels into a journey that takes years.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I always thought the elemental plane outposts in T4 should have been fleshed out significantly. That's what I want to see. Concrete adventure locations fleshed out in the planes. Enough of all these mythology and vast, sweeping generalities. Give me details.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Did you notice this passage in the 1e version? I missed the implication when I read it before.

And yet there is this at page 24:
Very interesting. Maybe the authors (Gary?) had an original intention of cross-planar trekking, then changed his mind at some point? I'm not entirely certain how a DM would even pull that off - it feels like it'd take an entire campaign's play to cross a plane on foot.

I need grodog to hurry up with Part II, I think.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I always thought the elemental plane outposts in T4 should have been fleshed out significantly. That's what I want to see. Concrete adventure locations fleshed out in the planes. Enough of all these mythology and vast, sweeping generalities. Give me details.
Not my favourite Eberron product, but there is Dread Metrol. One of the planes, Mabar, the Endless Night, represents death, decay, and entropy. Periodically it will draw a piece of Eberron into itself and start consuming it (at which point the plane Irian, the Eternal Dawn will create a new region to replace it). In this module, the city of Metrol has been sucked into Mabar, and is besieged by undead, while the population is gradually corrupted by planar influences, and the Queen descends into tyranny.

But man, you would hate this module. I don't like it much myself, but at least I can repurpose it into something better.
 
Top