The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
<GenX> <grabs popcorn and puts on some grunge> </GenX>
Me and the DMG
- Thread starter squeen
- Start date
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
@EOTB Have you ever played 5e before? Perception is a combination of many things, and can involve multiple dice rolls.
First, it's a Wisdom skill, so involves adding a Wisdom modifier (which also means penalties to low WIS characters who may choose to not attempt the roll in the first place). Then there's the proficiency system to account for - adding or not adding a proficiency modifier. Then there's Passive Perception, which is a default Perception check made without rolling a die (like the Taking 10 rule in 3e, except automatic). Then there's searching, which uses the Investigation skill instead of the Perception skill. Then there's additional Perception "features" like tracking, listening, invisibility, concealment, etc which all have their own rules and rolls.
Can't exactly be boiled down to an "abstract die roll".
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
What, you mean like a house rule that requires a minimum strength to be able to get your dex bonus when wearing plate armor?
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Hmm, seems like you're viewing D&D as Gary Gygax's sui generis perfect masterwork, wherein any tinkering ruins the effect. That seems a bit over the top to me. Does it matter if you roll stats with 3d6, 4d6 and drop the lowest, or one of the other seven or so methods Gary came up with? Not really. It's more about how it works with your play style and the type of campaign you're trying to run.
As for squeen's original house rule, there are other ways to get the same effect. Perhaps there is already a default minimum strength for wearing palte armor; if your strength isn't high enough you'll be over encumbered (though I can't remember if the 1e encumbrance rules had an impact on things like Dex bonuses). On the flip side, if the whole purpose of doing OSR is to have simplified rules, why bother making this house rule to begin with?
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
You don't seem to understand 5e.
"Rube-goldberg-esque" is hardly the right descriptor - it's more like using the appropriate roll for the appropriate situation, with a modifier thrown on top. It's about as Rube Goldberg as using a screwdriver. Furthermore, skills are used to resolve the outcome of actions, like every check in D&D... that's all they are.
Modern D&D is no more or less mechanically streamlined than any retro-clone. It's easy enough to internalize that you can eschew rulebooks entirely altogether once you understand the system - I only ever use rulebooks now to check specific spell details, it's that easy to run.
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
This is the most ironic statement I've ever seen.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Definitely guilty as charged.
I have some issues I am unhappy with my 0.5e (Swords & Wizardry++) hybrid-game---so I mention my half-baked house-rule solution, and then (hopefully) someone better versed with the 1e rules (e.g. EOTB) explains to me how this 0e short-coming has already been fixed.
Here's another mantra worth repeating about the 1e DMG:
It's not 1st-edition --- it's 1st-revision.
In the context of reading the DMG, you need to understand the 0e game had been going along like gangbusters for years, and that AD&D (and specifically the DMG) is an effort to clean house. Gygax understands it's harder to learn and run---that's why he called it Advanced. The only question left is, "Did he accomplish what he set out to do?".
Now, I understand there are probably checks and balances already in place in the original game that make it work fine without my tinkering. I REALLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND THOSE and make sure I incorporate them in my game in a rational way (like Weapons vs AC).
Here's what I'm picking at in AD&D today. I don't mind characters (with magic) plate having an AC of 0---but when the dex bonus pushes it negative, it irks. Dunno why. Just does. So...I was looking to make it a teensy bit harder for that situation to occur. (i.e. only the top 10% get that bonus).
I've see published House Rules that allow +1 armor or +1 shield, but not both---doesn't sit right with me, so---that <= -4 AC from dex---could/should I shrink it? Swords & Wizardry does (max is +1). Sure, in regular plate they are encumbered unless that have high strength anyway, so maybe it's just about enforcing encumbrance properly (as EOTB says, no need for the house rule!)---but not so much in magic plate (or +1 chain/+1 shield)!
I'm also thinking about making it so that one can't use a longbow in full plate---at least not with gauntlets and helmet on. Again, just trying to file-off the edge at the high-end of the curve. I want those 1 HD creatures to have >5% chance!
So, what's the point of this mental-roundabout? (House Rule! --> not needed you fool! --> oh! I see now...)
Well..It's true, I am a bit dim. (Thank you all for the hand holding.) I should really be capable of doing this alone, but....
What I've been trying to tell y'all in other threads is that it's actually helping me become a better DM. (Also the topic of this thread.) AD&D is like a black hole (don't quote that out of context!), and I'm spirally around it's Event Horizon---but it's still drawing me in.
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
You pegged me wrong, I'm no Boomer.
I'm Gen X and just call it as I see it.
What's next after Millenials? Generation Z or some shit? oh my god, don't even get me started on that...
What the hell is this thread about?
*turns up Nirvana*
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Much to EOTB's chagrin (I imagine) I am now also asking inane questions over on the Knight & Knave forums too.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
EOTB, I see have misread you. See, this is why multitasking is a BAD thing. I thought you were defending the use of 3d6 (only) as the correct way to roll character stats. Also I think the Quantum Ogre thread was colouring my perception.
Squeen: Just out of curiousity, you're not talking about brand new, 1st level characters with AC less than zero, are you? Also I suppose this was one of the nice things about Pathfinder/3e; most players opt not to go with plate armor because you lose too much tactical movement that way. I can't think of any players in my recent campaigns who have opted to buy it, except maybe for a cleric.
Squeen: Just out of curiousity, you're not talking about brand new, 1st level characters with AC less than zero, are you? Also I suppose this was one of the nice things about Pathfinder/3e; most players opt not to go with plate armor because you lose too much tactical movement that way. I can't think of any players in my recent campaigns who have opted to buy it, except maybe for a cleric.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Eh, Millenials aren't that bad. It's the boomers who are obnoxious.
Also, what are you, a sell-out? Nirvana? Psh. Listen to some real grunge, like Mudhoney or Mother Love Bone.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Wait, are you suggesting that the answer to high-powered characters is to have the 1 HD monsters use the weaponless combat tables?
Malrex
So ... slow work day? Every day?
The Heretic...thank god for you. I said Nirvana because no one ever knows the bands I listen too, disgruntled, I just say the most popular ones I can think of that sorta hits the mark. I LOVE Mudhoney and Mother Love Bone!!
Boomers, Millenials, other generations...they are all obnoxious. I only like Generation X....I got a soft spot for DP though, I still like him.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I haven't looked those pages up yet, but it has been said elsewhere (K&K?) that when large groups of low HD monster attack a high-level fighter, that overwhelming him with numbers via a grapple attack is probably their best bet.
Holy Cow! --- page 3 of this thread already, and I haven't even cracked the 2nd DMG topic!
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
No way! New PCs can't afford plate mail anyway (unless you gift it to them).
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I can't imagine doing a horde of attacks using the grapping rules. Gygax didn't use the grappling rules. I would change editions first - oh, wait, I did!
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
It's all the situational modifiers that make it so miserable (how much taller and heavier is an orc than a dwarf, anyway?), and using a different system for each of pummeling, grappling and overbearing. Plus you still have to refer to the attack matrixes, a d6 and a d4 roll for attacker and defender to determine the two variable modifiers, which variable modifiers are determined for each attacker. It is not clear whether the variable modifier is rerolled for each attack, but even if it isn't, each orc gets a difference variable modifier. Plus, pummeling allows 2 attacks per round, and overbearing can result in additional attacks. Also, 50% of damage from these rules is not actual, which is something else to track. Yes, I know it is not hard math, but every additional subsystem adds to the load. Gygax never used these rules for a reason. IIRC he claimed to instead use the rules on UA p. 106, which are somewhat simpler.
And as I read the rules, they are not dead if they are ever grappled or overborne. "Dagger to throat" never applies, because under these rules the PCs are never truly helpless; the best result is over 95 on a grapple or over 00 on a pummel, both of which stun, so that (per p. 70) there is an attack bonus of +4. The grappling rules expressly allow the grappled PC to try to grapple their attacker, so clearly the PC is not entirely defenceless. Unconsciousness only occurs at 0 hp. I note the UA rules at least allow a chance of someone being knocked out on a second pummel, and the orc at least doesn't have to drop his sword to do it.
Now it is possible that you will argue that there is some part of the rules that I have misunderstood or misinterpreted, and it is actually simpler/easier than all that. But if the rules need careful parsing to understand, or are capable of multiple interpretations, that does not make them any less of a mess (which I hold to be true when it occurs in any edition).
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
This brings a lump to my throat. Seriously. Lethal danger, at all levels, puts an edge into the game that maintains the mystery and terror of the Deep Corners of the World. Going into goblin caves, ancient crypts, and the like, should produce the same edge-of-your-seat, heart-pounding, excitement of a good horror flick.
Ignore these rules for drowning in a sea of orcs, or hand-wave away the terrifying veil that is Darkness (with ubiquitous infravision or infinite torches, etc.)---I am telling you people: YOU WILL LOSE SOMETHING!
I know. I did. (...but I'm gettin' it back.)
There are tons of other RPG games out there.
Let another be the one where you can play "fantasy super-hero dress up" in a safe-space---but, man,...THAT AIN'T D&D!
My game's got teeth!
Forget the dagger...
Please...use that instead, with my compliments.
...and that will be probably the last time someone boredly proclaims, "I charge the orcs, and hit them with my sword."
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Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
@EOTB Two things:
1. A defense of the rules in which you state that you ignore or handwave part of the rules is not a particularly good defence of said rules.
2. My point was that I didn't see these rules as fun, not because of their intent but because of their functionality. You have not convinced me of the error of my ways.
@squeen: my game is pretty lethal, I just use more streamlined mechanics. But strictly using the grapping rules does not give you the results you think it gives you, with the result that you are killing the PCs through narration, not adjudication. In RL being knocked down and grappled does not render you helpless without a lot more, and even if you are pinned you are not necessarily so immobilized that you throat becomes an easy target for throat slitting, although I suppose with a one minute round there would be a reasonable chance. Since we are making up rules perhaps a save would be in order?
1. A defense of the rules in which you state that you ignore or handwave part of the rules is not a particularly good defence of said rules.
2. My point was that I didn't see these rules as fun, not because of their intent but because of their functionality. You have not convinced me of the error of my ways.
@squeen: my game is pretty lethal, I just use more streamlined mechanics. But strictly using the grapping rules does not give you the results you think it gives you, with the result that you are killing the PCs through narration, not adjudication. In RL being knocked down and grappled does not render you helpless without a lot more, and even if you are pinned you are not necessarily so immobilized that you throat becomes an easy target for throat slitting, although I suppose with a one minute round there would be a reasonable chance. Since we are making up rules perhaps a save would be in order?
DangerousPuhson
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Tricky topic.
A move that insta-kills anything has potential to imbalance the game something fierce and be abused severely. I mean, if you have a hard time with insta-kill traps being somewhat unfair, imagine if you transform every encounter into a potential insta-kill. It goes both ways too... what happens when the players walk up to a sleeping dragon and declare "I grapple it then slit it's throat"? (or if your argument then becomes "well it won't work on dragons because the size difference is too big", then what happens when they try it on a lich?)
Seems dicey, but if you're looking for a good guide, the coup-de-grace rules from 3e were pretty balanced and still maintained the desired effect.
A move that insta-kills anything has potential to imbalance the game something fierce and be abused severely. I mean, if you have a hard time with insta-kill traps being somewhat unfair, imagine if you transform every encounter into a potential insta-kill. It goes both ways too... what happens when the players walk up to a sleeping dragon and declare "I grapple it then slit it's throat"? (or if your argument then becomes "well it won't work on dragons because the size difference is too big", then what happens when they try it on a lich?)
Seems dicey, but if you're looking for a good guide, the coup-de-grace rules from 3e were pretty balanced and still maintained the desired effect.