Mechanics Cross-Pollination Thread

[The1True]

Wasn't aiming that comment at you or at anyone in particular -- just a light-bulb that popped on in my head.


This I did not expect you to say. Care to elaborate some time?

Like, at the start of every new campaign, I've asked if the guys want to play a lethal game (save-or-die traps, limited/no raise dead/resurrection, scarce healing etc.) and everybody has been down; but when it comes time, nobody's ready for the reaper. I could train the players, but I put myself in their shoes and I have to agree; I'd rather sit at the table for an hour waiting for someone to get my corpse back to civilization than roll up a new character.
We all love the theory of oldschool play, but when push comes to shove, we're in it for the wish fulfilment: to advance and become super heroes.
I and the other DM have ended fudging so it's not unusual for the players to find themselves lugging around a corpse (or a sad pile of ashes), but there's always a high-level cleric in the neighbourhood happy to soak up our hard-earned treasure.

 

[The1True]

@The1True : Just another thought --- wouldn't your hooks have worked just as well with a gold mine? Maybe the elves wouldn't care so much.

I imagine the Vanished Wastes as a sort of Congo or Ruanda full of rare earths and fought over by super-powers while the natives just try to get by.
Also, when I was generating content for all the empty spaces on the map for the wider spaces, these veins of rare metals kept coming up, so I quit rerolling and just went with it. You're right, armies of mithril-clad warriors and platoons of adamantine knights will have repercussions down the line, but by then the characters should be super-heroes experiencing much more dynamic interactions with the powerful factions in the region and hopefully exercising some say over the distribution of rare resources.

 

[The1True]

High level play to me is boring. I don't think I've ever got past level 9.

but
but
but the Tarrasque dude. The Tarrasque!

 

[squeen]

I really don't think I argue or articulate my points well about races, classes, character agenda's, etc. etc. because I agree with you that normalization of the exotic can make the game boring...I just like tools to help with...bah, Im not even going to get into it again.

Your debating techinque completely disarms me. I surrender, and admit defeat. Yours is the superior Kung Fu.

 

[Malrex]

Your debating techinque completely disarms me. I surrender, and admit defeat. Yours is the superior Kung Fu.

I disarm myself as sometimes I get lost into some passionate diatribe that when re-reading it, doesn't align with what the debate was actually about...lol.

but
but
but the Tarrasque dude. The Tarrasque!

One day, I want to really challenge myself and write a high level adventure. When I read some, I find myself rolling my eyes...instead of one dragon, there are 3! That to me is similar to what Squeen is saying about normalization of the exotic. It turns a dragon into something akin to an orc, instead of a fearsome and radical beast it should be. I'd rather see 1 crazy ass dragon with fire for scales or something different--even 2 headed...or something but 3 or more just palling around breaks it for me. Or, suddenly spells and abilities are nerfed.

The Tarrasque is something cool and demon lords can be cool (way better than 3 dragons). I just haven't read a lot of high level adventures that I cared for (I'm open for recommendations). I have Huso's City of Brass, but haven't read it yet (maybe on my next camping trip--unplugging is nice).

I just haven't really read anything that truly inspires me to play a high level character. I LOVE the struggle...I love rolling that '20' at a critical time and winning by luck. I'm sure some of that can happen in a high level adventure, but I haven't really seen it. I want to find that struggle and still keep all my high level spells that I have 'earned' (or survived long enough to apply). Seriously--what's the best high level (9+) adventure you have read or played, homebrewed or not, I'd like to read it (I've read Bloodstone and did not care for it). What adventure out there would scream for me to want to play a high level character and inspire me to write a high level adventure?

I have no idea what this whole thread is about so sorry if I took it off the train tracks.

 

[squeen]

I disarm myself as sometimes I get lost into some passionate diatribe that when re-reading it, doesn't align with what the debate was actually about...lol.

Ah! So...you are a practitioner of the "drunk monkey" form!
This explains much.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

OK. Not to derail this thread completely AGAIN, but I have a good mechanical question for you guys. Luckily it has a time limit, and then I can get back to you with how it worked out, and we can move on, assuming another edition war doesn't break out in the next 2 weeks (fat chance).

Y'know when something in today's adventure combines with something the PCs brought with them from last adventure in a really bizarre & unexpected way? I live for these little "gotcha" moments, but sometimes they can be hell to adjudicate in the thick of the action. Luckily this one happened right at the end of the session, so I have 2 weeks to come up with something. I thought I'd crowd-source some suggestions from you freaks:

Item 1 - A sentient spellbook, made from the corpse of an ancient sorceror and imbued with his personality (https://www.incunabuli.com/2017/12/all-are-writ-in-blood.html). The PCs picked it up as a mcguffin in the first adventure and have been putting off bringing it back to the proper authorities.

Item 2 - Three magic statues that allow two people standing between them to trade attributes or skills. (Room U9 here - https://blog.trilemma.com/2017/02/the-moon-is-mirror.html)
"Three stone crones animate to inspect anyone who stands between them. They discuss the history, weaknesses, and strengths of their subject and wonder aloud whether the subject might like to swap abilities that are no longer useful with someone else. If two people stand between them and declare they wish to exchange skills, it will be done."

The guy who carries this wacky spellbook gets in there, and asks the book what it wants. It replies "I want a body again." So get this, fucking genius boy says "You can have my body if you want."

Totally idiotic, and totally great, right?? Now he thinks he will somehow get REAL ULTIMATE POWER by doing this, like he gets access to the spell-list and knowledge of an ancient wizard, wheeeee! It can't work that way.

My question is what possible methods could I use here? I'm looking at things like Magic Jar, or I dunno... maybe those lycanthropy tables in the DMG, like sometimes he wakes up and the sorceror just went on a tear while he was asleep? It could work in a million and a half ways. One player even suggested he would be happy to donate a point of CON to create a new body for the book-sorceror in exchange for a spell or something.

Whatever I pick, it has to follow some kind of law of equivalent exchange. Nobody can get something for free, the statues allow trade-offs. So if the book gets to use his body, he gets something too. But a rental is not in the spirit of what the statues do. What kind of permanent solution could there be? The sucker gets trapped in the book? I mean, too fucking good right? To be clear, I think this is a great idea but also it seems like one of those times when a player is committing the sin of Icarus. If anybody has a suggestion, I'm all ears.

 

[Johann]

Bodies are overrated. I played a paraplegic sorcerer once. I didn't have much of a say in some affairs ("I think we should take the left tunnel!" - "We'll push his wheelchair down the right tunnel."), but it worked just fine.

In the case at hand, permanently trading away his body for being (in) the book could work IF the book PC could speak & cast spells but would need assistance and would obviously be doing so: Whenever the book PC casts a spell, someone has to hold it open and the book glows, its pages flutter wildly and loudly, and its hair-raising supernatural voice can be heard. That way, the book becomes a viable target (with AC, hp, vulnerable to fire etc.) and needs someone to lug it around, hold it open etc. (a vulnerable henchman, fumble-fingered golem or fellow PC, all viable targets).

This procedure should be viable (i.e. the book should have quite a few hp, shouldn't be too easily destroyed, shut close etc.) and it definitely should have a voice to communicate (and obivously be doing so). You'd need rules for called shots targeting the book, possibly critical hits (Oh no! The arrow pierced your magic missile spell!), depending on your rules.

If my PCs encountered an enemy NPC party with a glowing book casting spells that'd definitely be their first target.

 

[Johann]

Y'know when something in today's adventure combines with something the PCs brought with them from last adventure in a really bizarre & unexpected way? I live for these little "gotcha" moments,

Yeah, that rocks! If you guys can make it work somehow, you'll be reminiscing about this decades from now!

 

[The1True]

What adventure out there would scream for me to want to play a high level character and inspire me to write a high level adventure?

Labyrinth of Madness. fkn awesome.

I have no idea what this whole thread is about so sorry if I took it off the train tracks.

's okay, it went off the rails a while back as all good conversations should

 

[The1True]

If two people stand between them and declare they wish to exchange skills, it will be done."

How is a body a skill? I mean I guess you could offer to exchange the skill of walking but the book lacks feet to perambulate and I don't see how the statues' power extends to manifesting body parts (although a book with legs running around...). If the PC had some kind of shapechange ability that would probably be of some use to the book. But yeah, I don't see how the character's current offer, crafty though it is, will work with the rules as written for the two artifacts. I think they need to go back to the drawing board and see if they have an innate ability/abilities that would be of interest to a soul trapped in an inanimate object which they could trade on a one-for-one basis for at-will or once/day spell abilities.

 

[Malrex]

Ah! So...you are a practitioner of the "drunk monkey" form!
This explains much.

Nah..haven't drank in awhile actually.

Labyrinth of Madness. fkn awesome.

I'll check it out.

For Terrible Sorcery--Wow...what a predicament.
So if I understand it right, at the end of the session the PC was standing between the statues with the book?

1. I'd probably transfer the PC into the book and the dead warlock into his body. Warlock would teleport out of there right away. The PC is the book, can study all the knowledge within (so equal trade), but can't cast the spells. It's an adventure to either create a new body or hunt down the warlock (who probably wants his book back!)

2. Treat it like a sentient sword with ego and whatnot. But instead of a book, its now a body (The PC's body). They both live in the vessel. Roll to see who has control. Also, every time the controller casts a spell (Im assuming they are a wizard), there is a chance the warlock or PC takes it back over...perhaps its a temporary thing, but definitely chaotic which may include attacking the party or maybe it teleports out. But...make sure the body is completely tattoed with all the spells and what not on the body.....a wanted man by all wizards!

3. The statues create 2 bodies...one is strong and dumb, the other is smart and can cast spells but can barely move. Personalities trade bodies during day/night. Big one has to carry smart one...smart one can cast spells...

4. Maybe one of the statues becomes a body/host?

5. Turns out the warlock was just an apprentice who fucked up and his master put him in the book....he only knows 1st level spells...

6. A walking book with arms, and a walking body with a book head...

7. Could roll on a wild magic/chaos/wand of wonder table...

8. Ill have to think up some more stuff...sounds like we got some time.

What rule-system you using and what class is the PC?

 

[squeen]

I think the wizard-ego just escaped it's trap, and the PC is now stuck. The wizard gets physical life. The PC get pseudo-immortality inside the book.

Wizard needs to re-memorize his spells, so quite vulnerable. Maybe he pretends to be the PC for awhile.

The PC is trapped inside some sort of book-dimension so can explore it a bit---maybe there's a way out but the wizard's soul wouldn't/couldn't take the risk or pay the price (reborn at 1st level? lose all magical ability?). Also can interact with the party (say by standing in front of a mirror or device inside the book-world). Also, the wizard's awesome spell book is in there---that's the reward if he/she can get out.

Sounds awesome.

P.S. I love how there's basically one active thread at any time in which a free-form conversation takes place that in no way adheres to the thread topic.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

Yeah, Malrex's option 2 is what comes to mind for me. I would allow the PC to temporarily retire, spend downtime studying, and then if the PCs really wanted they could burn the book and cast reincarnation or something (so you go from being a book to being a weasel or a deer or an elf or something).

 

[Beoric]

I would let the PC and the book swap, um, receptacles. Wizard in PC body now needs to study to recover spells, has no spellbook other than the PC in spellbook skin. Then they get to bargain to be useful to each other. If the wizard bails, the PC gets to use all the spells written in, um, himself, but he will have to find someone to carry him around and hold him so he can do stuff ("Turn me to your left. No, you ignorant peasant, your other left!"). Or he could blow lots of slots on unseen servant (fly doesn't last long enough).

PC/book hasn't increased in level or number of spell slots (those skills didn't swap, so he retains them without change), he just has access to more spells and doesn't have to roll to understand them. In a pinch he can try to cast a higher level spell using the same spell failure rates as if he was using a scroll, but then the spell is erased from, um, himself. Ditto for casting a spell he hasn't prepared.

 

[The1True]

"If two people stand between them and say they wish to exchange SKILLS". I reiterate: the body is not a skill. Fun as all this body-swap talk is...

 

[squeen]

Put them both in the same body with the spells? Have them roll for who gets control every time a major action is required?

 

[Beoric]

"If two people stand between them and say they wish to exchange SKILLS". I reiterate: the body is not a skill. Fun as all this body-swap talk is...

"Attributes or skills". And @TerribleSorcery is considering it, so what's wrong with that?

 

[The1True]

A body isn't an attribute either. You're treating it like it grants wishes. Rules as written you can trade a skill or attribute. I don't feel like I'm being overly pedantic here. It's fun and creative what everyone's doing here, but it's a fundamentally flawed interpretation of what the pillars can do. Just sayin.

Why not trade the power of speech? That would free the book up to transport itself with spells.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

Wow guys, tons of ideas here. I like that a few of you are onboard with serious transformations that might get the character into hot water. Lots of food for thought so far!

I reiterate

Yes, I read it the first time (and now the third). Your view has been noted for the record.
The idea that it simply wouldn't work has crossed my mind, but in that case the player will surely try some other tack which I need to be prepared for. Anyway, the "rules as written" in this case are two fairly vague sentences in a three-page dungeon. I had to put extra work into adjudicating most other rooms, so this is no exception.

So if I understand it right, at the end of the session the PC was standing between the statues with the book?

What rule-system you using and what class is the PC?

Yes, exactly. I paused it there because I realized fairly quickly that I wouldn't be able to adjudicate such a drastic and possibly long-term change without giving it some thought. We are playing Labyrinth Lord, but I happily take from other editions/rules whenever a particular situation crops up. The PC is a 2nd level race-as-class elf, so would be able to learn (eventually) all the spells in the book.