The state of Post-OSR content

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
This is an interesting observation, and it took me a while to wrestle with it but I suspect it might hold up, albeit it as a soft difference, not a hard one. The classic example would be Lolth in Vault of the Demonweb pits, supplemented with the various godlings and demonic royalty of the ludicrous Throne of Bloodstone modules, which are clearly part of the natural progression of challenges. There are of course, anti-patterns to consider; Zuggtmoy from T1-4 or Arawn from Role Aids's Shadows of Evil are challenges that are far too formidable for the characters to conventionally overcome. One is also reminded of a description of encountering Zagyg in the Greyhawk campaign setting where would pronounce various curses, fuck with the players, and then vanish, leaving behind a Deck of Many Things.
The archdevils and demon princes were in the Monster Manual for a reason. They weren't meant to be true gods, per se. The introduction of Lolth muddled things a bit, since she was very clearly more of a god than a demon.

I remember an injuction of not treating Deities & Demigods as "a very powerful monstrous manual" but it is possible this injuction was included precisely because they ended up being treated in just such a fashion.
Yes, I remember that too. If you weren't intending for us to use them as monsters, then why did you focus so much on their stats?
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Okay, but IIRC in ToEE your odds of encountering Zuggtmoy as a wanderer are very low, and only if you start opening doors that you don't actually have to open. I don't think there is a keyed encounter for Zuggtmoy, although it's a big module and I can never keep the whole thing in my head. And you have an alternate way of damaging Zuggtmoy using the Orb (which takes away half her HP and prevents her from using any of her powers.
She's also severely weakened by the bindings in those doors. If you can reach her without breaking the doors then she's much easier to fight.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Yes, I remember that too. If you weren't intending for us to use them as monsters, then why did you focus so much on their stats?
Never underestimate the disinclination of someone offered the sweetheart deal of being paid a royalty on a freelanced work (as James Ward was for D&DG) to waste time creating a new mechanical nomenclature for deities, as opposed to using the one used on everything else previously.

Of course the book is going to be put out as quickly as possible in the format everyone is used to seeing. If it would pay off your mortgage, you would too. The text in the beginning explaining why it is so pointless to try to fight a deity doesn't go away because each has a normal-looking stat block
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Another side-effect that influenced young minds poorly when D&DG came out was the artifact envy.
The long section the the 1e DMG didn't help either.

When reading Gary's voice in the 1E DMG there's a feeling it stirs up from people who lived those years when all that was new. But there's an illusion there - the text in the DMG is drawing upon years of experiences others coming after don't have. That text can't do for them what it does for us. We don't need another EGG. There can't be another EGG. But anyone who didn't grow up with AD&D needs someone who will be their EGG.

S&W could do that through Matt, although I have no idea if Matt consciously understood that was happening. P&P and other OSRIC folks preferred to point people back to Gary's writing as opposed to taking on a de facto "Gary for a new era" sort of role. I can understand the aversion to that. But anyone who didn't have 20 years in the scene gravitated towards S&W, the game with a face, and that also was both simpler to pick up and run for floaters whose interest was stirred up by Gary's passing, and more flexible in that rules-agnostic creativity space.
On third(!) reading, it's these two paragraphs that stand out for me.

S&W is fading now too (post-Frogs merger). Matt has receeded into the background and is not longer publishing content (or blogging). I think Melan's Castle X is the last truly great S&W adventure to come along in 8 or more years.

Both Matt and EEG had a wonderful gift for creating adventures. As you pointed out, sadly both stopped doing that fairly early on. And so it goes...
 
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Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
2) But even while identifying 1E AD&D nearly totally with the personality of Gary Gygax, the main people associated with OSRIC either did not understand that just as OSRIC was AD&D restated for the 21st Century, that there would need to be a Gary Gygax-like figure associated with OSRIC, for all the same reasons they themselves love Gary Gygax. There are many reasons, good reasons, why any of them were disinclined to even try to assume such a role, but just as 1E AD&D would likely have been just another game without EGG's continuing post-publishing voice, such is the reality of OSRIC.

It's like an iceberg - you see, and you don't see, the iceberg in the water. When reading Gary's voice in the 1E DMG there's a feeling it stirs up from people who lived those years when all that was new. But there's an illusion there - the text in the DMG is drawing upon years of experiences others coming after don't have. That text can't do for them what it does for us. We don't need another EGG. There can't be another EGG. But anyone who didn't grow up with AD&D needs someone who will be their EGG.

S&W could do that through Matt, although I have no idea if Matt consciously understood that was happening. P&P and other OSRIC folks preferred to point people back to Gary's writing as opposed to taking on a de facto "Gary for a new era" sort of role. I can understand the aversion to that. But anyone who didn't have 20 years in the scene gravitated towards S&W, the game with a face, and that also was both simpler to pick up and run for floaters whose interest was stirred up by Gary's passing, and more flexible in that rules-agnostic creativity space. Matt by himself, in the 2nd go-round, was also more willing to risk open-sourcing S&W text instead of the previous combined OSRIC group's then-consensus preference to minimize the then-unknown legal risk by keeping large sections of it closed. It's just what it is.

But all of these circumstances combine to produce very different trajectories and post-publishing activity outcomes between OSRIC and S&W.

And then there's the ABCDEF

A) You make a name by having something to say, and compelling content to say it around. Before you publish what gets you noticed, you normally have a backlog of old-growth good content built up over time when you weren't running a new enterprise, to draw upon. So there's a spurt of great adventures to fuel momentum. Look at the S&W Matt Finch catalog from 2007 up through a couple of years after the merger with Frog God; look at the first couple of years of AS&SH; Look at LOTFP; Look at Gygax's early output at TSR. Other examples abound. Many of the K&KAers did put out a lot of very good modules for OSRIC in first few years, through XRP. James Boney has several, for example.

B) Not only are you burning through that content much faster than you organically made it when you weren't running an enterprise and spending time on social media publicizing it, the time left to make new content declines even as the demand goes up. The pipeline of content starts looking shallower and shallower, and must be filled somehow.

C) So what do you do? You get new faces who are eager to publish under your banner to keep it going. Hopefully they are all talented. Your name is made, and both you and the new face understand that your name will pull sales that their unknown name won't. In return the unknown becomes known. Think of all the better 2nd gen contributors to games you've bought over a span of time.

D) Eventually you aren't the new thing/hot thing/cool thing. That's likely going to be one someone's previous 2nd gen contributor putting their own spin on the genre under their own name now that it's established. Gavin Norman supported Labyrinth Lord long before he wrote OSE; Jeff Talanian of AS&SH supported late-period Gygax with the aborted Castle Zygyg; etc. The need of each generation's experience to be obviously new-to-them and new-for-them is a dynamic that = gravity for you, and lift for them. Hasbro indulges this cycle through editions, always promising the current one is the last one before breaking that promise for the next generation implicitly demanding a D&D tailored to their own zeitgeist.

E) However...each prior cohort is divided between those who want to renew their association with the current, and those who are entirely satisfied with what was new for them in their time of winner-picking. So long as you established you name at step A, you will likely always have a core of supporters who will turn out for average to good content you now have more time to make that the spotlight and time it consumes have passed to newer hot titles.
You said "Necro/Goodman material while ditching the 3E rules they were written to both comply with and be easily back-convertible from."

How is it easily back compatable? Are you saying they made the stats so you don't convert and just run as is in 1e?
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
How is it easily back compatable? Are you saying they made the stats so you don't convert and just run as is in 1e?
Not in my experience. I have a whole collection of the Goodman 3e DCC's and they went whole-hog for the huge 3e stat-blocks and skill-challenges. The dungeons do aim for that classic dungeon-challenge feel though as opposed to that neo-trad rrrrrole-play feel.
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
Yeah I thought so too. Did not know what EOTB meant by that.

Of note, wotc DnD has now been published for longer than TSR even existed.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
DCC, the RPG, did not exist in 2006. Goodman published a line of 3E modules built using 3E rules but “old school feel”. Which meant Goodman considered the line to be similar in play experience to the white plume mountains and keep on the borderlands of years’ past, instead of the adventure path structure that supplanted location-based modules

You could, in theory, simply use an AD&D equivalent monster, spell magic item, etc., in place of the 3E version the module provided, and play their line of mods with older rulesets. They tended to write monsters, spells, etc., into their mods that were previously published in AD&D. You saw a 3E werewolf, you ran a 1E werewolf; if there was a 3E flame tongue sword as treasure, you handed out a 1E flame tongue to the party; etc. there was an element of “wink-wink” to it; the old-school gamer simply ignored 3E-specific "skill checks" and what have you, running the situation as they would under their rule system as choice. The adventure had to be functionally written as useable in the 3E environment though, or so it was thought at the time, to comply with the OGL license.

How satisfying that experience was varied in opinion of old school gamers. Some felt it still didn’t quite work very well, others said it worked fine, and they used Goodman’s and Necromancer Game’s “old school” 3E products to run ongoing AD&D campaigns
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I may be mistaken in my interpretation, but I always felt the OSR was not just talking about a particular play style but primarily about producing new products for a ’certain style of D&D’, and the larger focus of K&K on this over Dragonsfoot is what in general differentiates the two forums.

My sense of the different interests between K&K and Dragonsfooters is that K&K has its name on OSRIC, an actual ’new’ product line (at the time at least). This for me is what makes something a part of the OSR, in that it is producing new material. I realise this may not be an interpretation everyone agrees on, but the subtext of discussions of OSR a decade ago implied the publishing of new products.

I think you can see the attitudinal difference between the two forums when you look at how new product announcements are received (just compare Melan’s for example on the two sites). When a new product gets announced at K&K there is much more interest and support, whereas at Dragonsfoot there might be couple of comments and the thread just gets largely ignored. Those making supporting comments are often enough also K&K members. Moreover, a lot of Dragonsfooters appear to be largely ignorant of the OSR in general and what products are coming out, K&K members however on the whole seem to be watching the OSR much more closely even though they probably aren’t consuming most of the more artsy stuff. Dragonsfooters will often have no idea of who some of the bigger names are for example: ‘Who‘s Patrick Stuart?’ ‘He did MotBM and DCO’. ’What are they?’ - a fairly common response by Dragonsfooters.

I think this attitudinal difference is what differentiates the two forums for me.
You have seen all the 'new' products that Dragonsfoot produces...right? https://www.dragonsfoot.org/
Granted, it's all free and maybe that doesn't count?
I would consider them part of the OSR.

I think you are pretty spot on though with some of the attitude on DF. I don't have as much experience on K&K.

Dragonsfoot is pretty ignorant of what other stuff is out there for sure....and admittedly, it's getting boring over there talking about the same adventures over and over and over and over. Stale. Lately, I rarely post on Dragonsfoot. I think after the next Footprints magazine is finished, I'll probably take a break from Dragonsfoot...unless they start talking about new stuff--doesn't have to be a new retroclone, but new adventures rather than A Keep on The Borderlands or Tomb of Horrors would be nice.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@Pseudoephedrine : Over at K&KA there's a thread call "Your preferred version of 0e". In response, a member named Settembrini, wrote:
Settembrini said:
My favorite version is the 1975 Empire of the Petal Throne Box set. Because it shows that a conservative reading of 1974 was possible. The inspired reformulation of the rules also show that the line of tradition leading to early 1e was alive even in 75. I actually find EPT's text even better written than Dr. Holmes' box.
emphasis mine
 
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Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
Sure! The ideas that became Classic pre-existed the emergence of Classic as a culture. You need normalising forces to create a culture - people who say "This idea is good, this one isn't" with some sort of authority, reason, or other persuasive force. Gygax didn't really push that normalisation or those opinions until mid-1976, and it didn't go beyond the SR and a few other zines until 1977.

Having read the 1975 Empire of the Petal Throne, I would agree it wouldn't resist being used in a Classic way, but it's not necessarily interested in progressive challenges as the core of play. You could just as easily use it for "Dungeons and Beavers" type literary emulation about the high-court politics of the Tsolyanu empire. If you went off the setting material alone, which spends far more on that than almost any other topic, you'd probably think that was the point. The actual bit about PCs being fresh-off-the-boat barbarians on the hustle doing tasks for powerful patrons is relatively brief in comparison.
 

Beek Gwenders

*eyeroll*
You have seen all the 'new' products that Dragonsfoot produces...right? https://www.dragonsfoot.org/
Granted, it's all free and maybe that doesn't count?
I would consider them part of the OSR.
That’s what I was getting at. Although it may initially seem counter-intuitive at a certain level, having free stuff available rarely seems to attract much attention. It‘s the for sale items that get the attention and generate hype (some of this may also have to do with standards of quality also, authors producing free stuff not necessarily feeling the same need to produce something of quality). Products being available in physical form and not just limited to PDF sales helps also, and even more so if products are actually sitting on shelves in games shops.

I think you are pretty spot on though with some of the attitude on DF. I don't have as much experience on K&K.


Dragonsfoot is pretty ignorant of what other stuff is out there for sure....and admittedly, it's getting boring over there talking about the same adventures over and over and over and over. Stale. Lately, I rarely post on Dragonsfoot. I think after the next Footprints magazine is finished, I'll probably take a break from Dragonsfoot...unless they start talking about new stuff--doesn't have to be a new retroclone, but new adventures rather than A Keep on The Borderlands or Tomb of Horrors would be nice.
This is what makes me feel as though Dragonsfoot is not really part of the OSR, even if some posters think they. Dragonsfooters are pretty much obsessed with just playing AD&D and talking about old AD&D modules, which is fine itself, but puts them out of the OSR in my mind. K&K members on the whole appear much more aware of what’s happening in the OSR, even if they deride the majority of the products.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
That’s what I was getting at. Although it may initially seem counter-intuitive at a certain level, having free stuff available rarely seems to attract much attention. It‘s the for sale items that get the attention and generate hype (some of this may also have to do with standards of quality also, authors producing free stuff not necessarily feeling the same need to produce something of quality). Products being available in physical form and not just limited to PDF sales helps also, and even more so if products are actually sitting on shelves in games shops.

This is what makes me feel as though Dragonsfoot is not really part of the OSR, even if some posters think they. Dragonsfooters are pretty much obsessed with just playing AD&D and talking about old AD&D modules, which is fine itself, but puts them out of the OSR in my mind. K&K members on the whole appear much more aware of what’s happening in the OSR, even if they deride the majority of the products.
Yeah, I don't know...some of that free stuff has been downloaded 13k+ times, some 2k+...but hardly talked about. So the attention might be there, but it doesn't go much further than downloading it. So I can see what you are saying.

I guess to me, because it's AD+D, then its OSR cause I consider AD&D 'old school'. That's my simplified way of looking at it. Maybe I'll give K&K another shot. I remember enjoying their Craft of Play board (or something like that).
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
DCC, the RPG, did not exist in 2006. Goodman published a line of 3E modules built using 3E rules but “old school feel”.
And those 3e modules were published under the banner of "Dungeon Crawl Classics". I have a shelf full of them... there are also 4e DCC adventures... come at me you delightfully pedantic mofo :p :D

DCC13-600x776.png
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
And those 3e modules were published under the banner of "Dungeon Crawl Classics". I have a shelf full of them... there are also 4e DCC adventures... come at me you delightfully pedantic mofo :p :D

View attachment 1046
Completely fair - I did come off as pedantic. Somehow I misread your post and came away with the thought you were talking about the RPG. The hazards of checking a board while working.

I've got all the PDFs from 1-52, and then some of their early in-house RPG line. I remember when WotC yanked the ability to do 3E and 4E simultaneously, they had a crash sale for some rediculous low price. As dungeons the maps suck, and the text isn't much better.

But they make great lair maps. Worth the few bucks I shelled out for all of them. #51 is their big megadungeon, but I never did read that. I have a hard copy of it in shrink sitting around someplace - same fire sale, think it was like $5 or something. I remember shipping cost more than the product.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Oooh 'Castle Whiterock'? I drank the Kool-Aid and bought that giant beast. You're absolutely right, it's still sitting there in its shrinkwrap lol. Has anyone actually played this thing? I never see it on peoples' Megadungeon lists. Ditto for 'Grand Temple of Jing' and 'Jade Tower'.
My group comes from a tradition of 1 and 2e adventures, so we were pretty happy with the open aggressiveness and minimal setup of the 3e DCC adventures. We particularly liked the tournament adventures like 'Crypt of the Devil Lich'. The one they're super proud of, 'Iron Crypt of the Heretics' was a hot mess, dumpster-fire railroad though imo.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
She's also severely weakened by the bindings in those doors. If you can reach her without breaking the doors then she's much easier to fight.
That's kind of the point right? There's a bunch of special doo-hickeys that you need to utilize in order to make it a survivable fight, and the weight of obtaining those doo-hickeys outweighs your normal mastery of the game, so it becomes more of a puzzle obstacle (or something to avoid).

City-State Revised also had the Gods appear in the temples, but that was apparently mainly so you didn't get too cocky and tried to rob the place dry since they seem far outside the range of even high-level adventures. There's examples a plenty.

Regardless, the treatment of Gods in OSR stuff is a lot less regimented, mainly because I think high-level material is much rarer as long campaigns are less common, resulting in the appearance of high-level things and concepts in low level environments. Granted, a lot of these examples have statts, its just that your chance of overcoming them are all but nonexistant. I am thinking of things like the Demon-King from Black Blade of the Demon-King, the Insect God from Raggi's Better then Any Man with possibly Orcus from Rappan Athuk functioning as a more conventional challenge (or was he actually fucking impossible?).

Sounds like I need to check out Matt Walsh.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I don't remember exactly where I read this, but one of EGG's admonitions of the West-Coasters was that in his campaign they had been playing for years longer and no one was much above name level, where as the Beavers crowd had gotten much higher in a fraction of the time.

I don't think fighting-the-gods was ever really in the playbook. Even demon-lords (like Lolth) were presumably weaker on the Prime Material plane. Gygax himself never really took it that far in his play, and it seems like there was never any intent to do so (except maybe in his novels).

Wouldn't we all love to see his original ToEE that Kuntz sacked with his ultimate PC, Robliar. Instead we got Metzner's compromised edition.

For me, it will never get that crazy.
 
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