Ultra Violet Grasslands

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
I just started into my hardcopy of UVG and @Beek Gwenders ' post with it's quote from @PrinceofNothing 's blog really put a finger on what I've been feeling while reading this thing:

”The Artpunk is rising. After Lotfp was dealt a grievous hit under the water-line and took on water, the adherents of this terrible creed emerged filth-spattered from all of its nooks and crannies and leapt into the ocean, to search for greener pastures to infest. In its wake follow Troika, and now Mörk Börg, and with each iteration we see an inexorable decline in gameability, depth, substance and thematic fealty in favor of gorgeous presentation, posturing and off-the-wall hair-brained ideas.”

More than anything, I WANT to like this thing. Like 'Gardens of Ynn' and 'Stygian Library', I'm tearing it up, loving every page. Absolutely loving the artwork. Tripping out on the crazy ideas. Imagining what my players would do confronted by this weirdness and mystery.

But is it playable? Has this stuff even been playtested? (UVG credits playtesters, so I guess the answer is yes?) Are there really enough drugs in the world to truly grock this thing? My players, like me, are a solid 50% rules-lawyer. Will a loosey-goosey system like this infuriate them or force them to relax and go with the flow old-school style?

Currently, I'm working my way through the regional descriptions. The text is treading a dangerous, fine line between flavourful neologisms evoking alien images and concepts and baffling portmanteaus seemingly assembled by drawing random weird words out of a hat and designed to deliberately obfuscate the author's intent. Organization is haphazard verging on vexing as I flip back and forth looking for maps or trying to find rules or dig fruitlessly through what on the face of it looked like a very thorough index.

I get it, this an exploratory expedition into the heart of a dreaming land. Shit be weird. The rules do not/barely apply. The organization of the text rigorously reinforces this. Say 'yes and' and make shit up. This isn't a rigid tactical situation. In every description there are two or three highlighted words to get your synapses firing and the rest is up to you.

I havn't got to the rules yet. They're mostly hung on an OSR D&D framework though, so it's not a story-game or a matter of reinventing the wheel. I appreciate that and look forward to reporting more when I read them more thoroughly. (Currently I've just been glossing them, trying to make sense of abbreviations in the descriptions.

Anyway, to sum up the initial impression. I love this book. I want it to be great, which is probably colouring my objectivity. Every page is a feast for the eyes and a smorgasbord of wild mental vignettes that I yearn to explore with the PC's. Hunting for crunch in this book is futile agony though and I can foresee trouble operating this campaign over a VTT: God help you if some random roll has your PCs' caravan stumbling into an ancient ruin that requires a bespoke map and you need to draw on the fly...

Sorry, I should show/don't tell and throw in some examples of the kind of text I'm talking about. More later, hopefully...
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
So I think this is good but Bryce wont review setting books.

This requires too much work from the DM to create to be called an adventure.

I know of multiple DMs running this right now so have some second hand experience to give you.

Its good. Yes you have to just play this and cant insert it in your world.

SEACAT sucks but is easy to convert to the system you like. Just replace to HD and the like. He tells you in the system section.

Resource system is great ala light in Veins.

YOU HAVE TO WORK THIS. Where will your players go next week pull out those sections and draw maps and key them. Place NPCs there, key them too. Write encounter tables. How will factions react.

PREP ALL THE THINGS. READ AND PREP.

THIS HAS BEEN VERY FUN FOR THESE PEOPLE. THEY LIKE MAKING MAPS AND TABLES AND KEYING THINGS.

Do you like this?

As far as layout, yes its not great. Luka is verbose and needs to use more bullet points.

I would love to see him do adventures but if the curse is more setting books forever? There are worse things as you note this has mad ideas. Art is wow wow good. I am with you its conflicted but I hope Luka will get better.

The Guide to the Rainy City/ Dead Planet is my format and organizational format model for Luka. Do that? And you golden.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
Do you like this?
I used to, but since I've fallen behind on my creator projects, I'm significantly less enthusiastic. I guess that's why I'm running a Barrowmaze campaign...

Luka is verbose and needs to use more bullet points.
Agreed. Although only in a few spots have I actually felt like the verbosity was too long to be usable as read-aloud in a pinch.

I would love to see him do adventures but if the curse is more setting books forever?
Yeah, a lot of this is making me wish for backup products. Take my $$$ Luka! He could certainly lure people into his Patreon this way if he wanted to I guess... I think we've hit the same problem with our Vanished Wastes project over at GTC. You drill down and drill down and drill down some more and gradually your mini-campaign has turned into a bloated, late-80's TSR product roll-out. Tough call where to draw the line when you're in a creative fugue. I watched a whole video game studio implode this way in the 90's.

calling a DM a 'cat' is ... lemme go find my beret, oil my mustache and roll a Gauloise ...
but yeah, I read some more last night. I would argue that the one-page adventures included with each Point on the crawl might count as adventures for the purposes of a @bryce0lynch review. He's definitely been known to enjoy the odd loose Hex Crawl on occasion.

The other thing I'm seeing here is the DIY tables, which I personally love, but I've seen some strong arguments against them here. I think most recently there was a quote from a Tenfoot review saying something like -if it's worth coming up with a table with 10 good ideas for an area, you might as well just pick one and sharpen it. - I paraphrase outrageously and maybe the archivist @squeen can point us to what the hell I'm talking about. The point is, I get how people could want clear descriptions in their adventures and Tables often seem like a lazy shortcut. But, that DIY ethos is part of what brought me into this OSR thang, and I AND my players kinda dig rolling dice, which is probably why I also like Ynn and Stygian.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I do recall the quote...but didn't bookmark it in the Bryce Said thread. Doh!

On UVG: are you just Planescaping again? i.e. enjoying a fictional setting that is fun to talk about but lacks most the pragmatic play-detail?

I understand the time-crunch...but why not just continue developing the campaign world you started in Irradiated Skies? So much of the joy of being a DM is exercising your creative muscles. I've made the quasi-resolution not to buy anything (more) this year, having gone on a small spree since Christmas. Instead, I just hope to focus on fleshing out and documenting the home campaign.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
having gone on a small spree since Christmas.
I'm reading through my Christmas buying spree atm ;) Gotta support the community and such amirite! I definitely have more adventures than I can ever hope to play at this point. I KNOW I'm not alone here...
 
I dunno, there is fine line between creativity and playability. I feel the same way about this as Blue Medusa; both very well done products, but require to “run it” than be creative with it. Mental linkage or something...
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
I hear ya. I'm getting more and more frustrated reading this thing. Sorta the same feeling I got while reading 'Spiral Isles'. A few pages in and I can't wait to run it; thinking about how I'm going to slide it into my ongoing campaign. About a third of the way in I'm starting to realize I'm on my own and there's going to be no support. There's just a staggering amount of fleshing-out implied in the spaces between the beautiful paragraphs.

I mean, I get this 'yes-and' mentality and I dig it. Improvisational/emergent game-play is amazing and I can do it. I've definitely run sessions off a few loose notes, or out of gazeteer or just off a big map and some encounter tables, but at a certain point, if I'm running off a weird product like UVG or Spiral or Ynn, I'm trying trying to form mental images and construct some kind of concrete stats off the author's pretty but crackheaded prose and wishing something had just been written down in the first place. Also, a little more granularity with the maps; like if you're going to give me a description of your cool little location, how about an inset map. Luka has definitely done this for one location per Point on the point crawl, and I understand that if the lost ziggurat hides an ancient megadungeon, that's beyond the scope of the product, but gimme a blow-up of the locale at least!
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I think I prefer the opposite to the modules you are describing, in the sense that I find it easier to personalize, or add the weird, to a workmanlike module, than to add the practical bits to somebody's art project. Subtle details and known tropes inspire me, but there is a level of novelty where there just isn't enough connection to your real and imagined experience to enable improvisation.
 
I think I prefer the opposite to the modules you are describing, in the sense that I find it easier to personalize, or add the weird, to a workmanlike module, than to add the practical bits to somebody's art project. Subtle details and known tropes inspire me, but there is a level of novelty where there just isn't enough connection to your real and imagined experience to enable improvisation.
This is an interesting discussion; i think this is very true for most people, and many products are "great" but vaporware.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
This is distinctly not vaporware. And don't get me wrong, I'm loving the hell out of it. I just got to the Near Moon, a mile-wide moon/megadungeon floating 30m off the ground. There's a point-crawl system for the mega-dungeon that is very intriguing. But yeah, this demands a different sort of game-play. I think you'd go out of your mind trying to prep it and it's almost better to just roll the dice and freestyle whatever first pops into your head from the description, and move on before anyone asks any hard questions. It's an adventure of exploration and discovery. Rules lawyers and tacticians will be extremely vexed/disappointed, unless they choose to concentrate on the caravan sub-game (which I havn't gotten to yet).

The more I read, the more I'm wishing for clearer language though. I love reading William Gibson's novels where the stream-of-conscious writing is sprinkled with arcane scientific terminology and futuristic neologisms that fly way over my head. This is much less desirable in an adventure text. It definitely sets a theme, but if I'm going to do what I said above (roll the dice and spit it 8-Mile style) I can't take a break to google what the fuck an Autofac or a Lophotroche is...

ffs: "The Solipsistic Narwhal Cabal of deep-thinkers trapped a part of their unified personality structure in the school of blue-flecked crocodilians (L3, alligators actually) that make the Slathered Shallows a deathtrap. Known to few, quoting the Rainbow Analects or the Monochrome Koans (easy Thought test) stops the crocodilians in their tracks. Occasionally (30%) the old eunuch Pepeidoleia (L3, analytic philosopher) is on hand in his little lean-to, ready to declaim the tracts across the ford for a symbolic fee (€12)."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry...
 

Two orcs

Officially better than you, according to PoN
ffs: "The Solipsistic Narwhal Cabal of deep-thinkers trapped a part of their unified personality structure in the school of blue-flecked crocodilians (L3, alligators actually) that make the Slathered Shallows a deathtrap. Known to few, quoting the Rainbow Analects or the Monochrome Koans (easy Thought test) stops the crocodilians in their tracks. Occasionally (30%) the old eunuch Pepeidoleia (L3, analytic philosopher) is on hand in his little lean-to, ready to declaim the tracts across the ford for a symbolic fee (€12)."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry...
That's perfectly legible, which part is vexing?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm not sure if that qualifies as purple prose, or having been swallowed by a demonic thesaurus of adjectives. I could see where a 1st-time author could fall into that mode and and feel a wild exhilaration at having found a mechanistic way to generate a lot of cool-sounding content. Still...more novelist than DM?

At it's core, in pedestrian language:
The Slather Shallows is inhibited by blue-flecked crocodiles possessed by the spirits of the Narwhal Cabal, a long-dead cult of intellectuals. They are hostile to anyone who does not display fanatical agreement with their obscure school of thought (that we are all ideas in a single uni-mind). However, like many scholars, they may be easily distracted by dogmatic puzzles and contradictions associated with their beliefs.

The old eunuch (insert name) who lives in the a lean-to at the edge of the swamp is particularly deft at confounding the crocodillians, and will act as a guide across the Shallows for a small fee (12 gp ea.). Unfortunately, he can be found in his home only 30% of the time.
There nothing wrong with that idea, but it's also doesn't sound quite as Stuart-ianly radical without all the flowery adjectives. But at it's heart, these idea-seeds without the supporting depth (stats, a lair, interesting treasure, stuff to discover/poke, etc.) are really little better than the Tome of Adventure Design (but with more edgy art?).

If I were to DM the scenario, I'd probably lean hard in the direction of the philosopher's from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy for some zany dialog. Dollars-to-doughnuts I suspect the author doesn't expect there to be any real back-and-forth between the players and DM---me thinks I smells a bland skills-check die-roll sandwiched in all that flowery prose.
 
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DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
The more I read, the more I'm wishing for clearer language though. I love reading William Gibson's novels where the stream-of-conscious writing is sprinkled with arcane scientific terminology and futuristic neologisms that fly way over my head. This is much less desirable in an adventure text. It definitely sets a theme, but if I'm going to do what I said above (roll the dice and spit it 8-Mile style) I can't take a break to google what the fuck an Autofac or a Lophotroche is...
The #1 tell to identify if an adventure was written to be played, or merely just read: verbosity.
 
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Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah, when you are reading a novel, the only thing you are doing is reading the novel. You are not trying to apply the information in the novel in a practical manner, or curating limited portions of the novel to convey to listeners who are only entitled to know it from the perspective of one of the supporting characters.

Module writing is technical writing. Evocative writing in a module is only of assistance when it helps to convey information more clearly and reliably than using simple language; that is, when you can rely on the connotations of the words to add meaning to the technical description.

That requires either a shared paradigm, where the DM can reasonably be expected to find the same connotation as the writer, as with the use of well-known tropes; or a willingness to allow the DM to apply his own connotation. Note that the uncertainty in connotation implies that essential information should never depend upon the interpretation of evocative language. If it's really important to the proper functioning of the module, you should state it plainly.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
me thinks I smells a bland skills-check die-roll sandwiched in all that flowery prose.
He encourages the DM to accede to creative PC solutions (including players just making shit up on the spot about the monster/obstacle/their own character if it fits the story), but helpfully includes skill DC's for most of his problems in case things grind to a halt or people want to move things along. Mechanically, I'm actually pretty much in agreement with this design choice including the system-agnostic 'easy-medium-difficult' system. Like above he says "(easy Thought test)" which is FANTASTIC. No prep, no scaling, no digging around in books. It's an easy test. Tell the player to roll a dice, let him/her/it add any pertinent bonuses; did he roll better than, say, 5+? It's good! I was thinking of instituting the same thing in my work. A DC 16 makes no sense to a guy who is used to rolling under his ability scores, but easy translates clearly to all versions.
 

The1True

8, 8, I forget what is for
The #1 tell to identify if an adventure was written to be played, or merely just read: verbosity.
I think there's a definite use for the flowery prose. Like the DM should use the words given to help transmit the theme of the setting: You're in a weird 80's, Heavy Metal Magazine, euro-comic. But if the language is utterly baffling than that backfires especially if the players and the 'Cat' (GM) are envisioning two totally different things as a result...
 
I mean...

There are better fantasy novels of various ilk out there if its about inspiration. That's not the purpose of RPGs. Playability should be a core assumption regardless of product type. Archaic prose and language is much more about the author's ego than anything else.
 

Two orcs

Officially better than you, according to PoN
I believe the style of using obscure language came to D&D through Dying Earth where it is both precise and disorienting and employed to create a certain mood. People remember the blue concentrate precisely because it's never specified what it is.
 
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