How's my 'Room Key'?

[Beoric]

I would pay top dollar for a B2 re-edited by Mr. Fullerton.
Just saying...

I'm almost done reading Goodman Games' "reimagining" (read: vanilla 5e conversion with minimal new content or editing of the original text) of B1 and B2. There is certainly room for improvement.

 

[squeen]

I'm almost done reading Goodman Games' "reimagining" (read: vanilla 5e conversion with minimal new content or editing of the original text) of B1 and B2. There is certainly room for improvement.

Does it, as advertised, contain the original (Holmes edition) B1 & B2 in addition to the 5e conversion?
If so, I might buy it for my kids.

 

[RoeeAV]

It still needs some work, but here goes...

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Area 1 seems good, but the sulfur smell should be further down the key (the most apparent/obvious things should be first, and "faint smells" are not that). Maybe even putting it with the door instead (since it's related, maybe the sulfur smell is near the door which gives a better clue as to its presence and relationship to the door).

Area 2: I'm not sure about the echoes being necessary (and the ceiling height). I don't think you need to include information on how long it takes to remove sand from a barrel (such thing as too much detail, especially when your room key is already long). Arrow slits probably doesn't need the "located below ceiling" entry - everything is below the ceiling lol. Your trap entries could be condensed to something like "Spear trap (pressure plate); 1d6 piercing (DC 17 DEX to avoid)" or "10' spiked pit (pressure plate); 1d6 piercing (DC 17 DEX to avoid)".

You've also misspelled "narrow" on your map.

 

[RoeeAV]

@DangerousPuhson I love it Thanks!

 

[Beoric]

Does it, as advertised, contain the original (Holmes edition) B1 & B2 in addition to the 5e conversion?
If so, I might buy it for my kids.

It contains two prints of each of the originals, and points out some of the differences between them, as well as versions of each converted to 5e (with the B1 encounters pregenerated), and essays about the dugeons from various dignitaries including Mike Carr, Luke Gygax and Harley Stroh. There is a little new content which is not up to the quality of the originals. I got it because I expect to be running them in 5e for my kids before I get sufficient system mastery to do proper conversions, but I may pencil the changes onto a copy of the originals.

At 382 pages it is a lot to flip through to run a couple of 30ish page dungeons. They included a footer on every page with the title of the book, but didn't take the opportunity to mark the chapters, and the chapters themelves are massive with multiple sections (which sections are not marked in the ToC. Finding anything is miserable, and it would be more or less unusable if I didn't know the originals pretty well. But its a great coffee table book.

EDIT: Also, the text from the originals is mostly duplicated in the conversions, although sometimes it is reorganized. The odd reorganizations are improvements on balance, but B1 in particular needs a hard edit to be more useable, and as we discussed elsewhere in this thread, B2's dungeon map and key could use renumbering and reorganization. And they could have taken the opportunity to fix the completely borked scale on B2's overland map. It was a wasted opportunity.

 

[Beoric]

@RoeeAV, should the sulfur smell be stronger closer to the door, in order to telegraph the trap?

I don't think you need to include information on how long it takes to remove sand from a barrel (such thing as too much detail, especially when your room key is already long).

Interesting. I interpreted that as the time to remove the barrels if they were full of sand (meaning you would have to stand of them to stay in the corner). Sometimes brevity comes at the cost of clarity.

 

[squeen]

I've still got issues with it. I'll try to post my concerns in a few days...but I do like the zoomed in map. Better!

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Interesting. I interpreted that as the time to remove the barrels if they were full of sand (meaning you would have to stand of them to stay in the corner). Sometimes brevity comes at the cost of clarity.

Yeah it could be interpreted either way. Regardless, my suggestion applies, especially because moving things is STR dependent - I doubt a STR18 character would take just as long to move some barrels as a STR 8 character. Also if anyone is using an especially creative solution to move them, then blanket statements like "takes 3 rounds" can hinder the gameplay if the DM is a rules lawyer.

 

[RoeeAV]

@RoeeAV, should the sulfur smell be stronger closer to the door, in order to telegraph the trap?

I wanted the whole room to faintly smell of sulfur, because the gas is released from the walls all around and not from the door.
But i think both you and @DangerousPuhson are right, if i mention that the Door smells of sulfur that will connect it better to the trap.

but I do like the zoomed in map. Better!

Thanks!

 

[Guy Fullerton]

@RoeeAV what does "narrow stairway" mean specifically? Why not say the width instead, or draw it to scale on the map? Both of those would use less space.

How far up/down do the stairs travel? Most dungeons assume 45 degree inclines, though modern stairs are not quite that steep. Either way, the map depicts the stairs traveling 20 ft forward, which implies the floors of arrow slits A and C sit much higher than the floor of area 2 (possibly 20 ft higher), yet area 2 only has a 12 ft ceiling. How do you reconcile that?

It would feel more natural if the two arrow slits overlooking area 2 had designations A and B (consecutive), instead of A and C (with a gap).

This is for Knave right (based on my memory of the reddit threads I had found the other day)? Does Knave have default rules for stuck doors? If so, what are they? Does it make sense to simplify the door opening mechanic to just say "as stuck." (Incidentally this makes it more portable to proper old school D&D.)

You have an odd mix of checks (Str check to open the door), classic category saves (poison save), and attribute saves (traps damage avoidance). Does Knave really use all those?

 

[Malrex]

I stay with only the map much longer, transitioning to the text later.

To that end, I generally give special doors a unique appearance on the map or their own keyed entry. I know un-marked doors are conventional, which simplifies the back-and-forth. Hyqueous Vaults shows some of this technique, as does of one my home dungeons (go back in this thread to see the maps for other parts of this dungeon):

The Twisting Stair Level 1 Dungeon - Page 6 - Knights & Knaves Alehouse

knights-n-knaves.com

I don't want everything to be compelling or evocative. Special stuff stands out better against the conventional.

From another post...


I intentionally assume referees are better than that, and don't lose sleep over anybody who rejects my things

Bolded part...totally agree with this. I agree that exit doors and such can be important for the players to know but I think my style is to have the evocative stuff first...the immersion---the game part....then have a more down to business discussion of the other factors (exit doors, number of coins, etc.). If an exit door was a huge dragon's head with the portal leading through the mouth...then it would get its own numbered entry or would be part of the evocative description of the room.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Before the PC I was using died (and took my copy of InDesign with it), I was toying around with some more DM-friendly layouts. I had come to a format I really liked:

The room description was essentially two or three sentences of read-aloud with bolded elements (which were things in the room that had further information when investigated). Each bolded item got a follow-up line.

Below the description and the bolded items were more sections (only if present in the room): Exits, Traps, Encounters, Treasures, Boon/Bane. The reason I put these things in their own little sections below was because it would be easier to isolate them (so to speak), since the information they held always applied after describing the room to the players.

I also had little icons next to the room number and name which identified things like light/darkness, sound, or the presence of creatures, since these are elements that travel "beyond the room" and should be seen by the DM before actually reading through the room (since light, sound, and creatures can be detected before entering a room). I had duplicated this effort on the map (showing the position of monsters and the routes they'd travel or areas they'd move to defend, as well as things like the color of the light).

There were also some ease-of-use features I'd incorporated to minimize page-flipping: map insets, color-coded reference "tabs" (think like the standard page numbering system of a book, except with room numbers instead), and sidebars that scrawled along the margins rather than inset themselves in the text area.

You'd think that it would all be too much information, but I was able to consistently cram 4-5 rooms per page using this layout (maybe two or three per page for complex rooms, or on pages with inset maps included). With proper whitespace management and bulleting, it came out surprisingly uncluttered.

I really hope to boot up my old PC and show you guys what it looked like one of these days. I did nearly a whole dungeon in the format (like 50+ pages).

 

[RoeeAV]

what does "narrow stairway" mean specifically?

I guess that all the options are valid.
But i thought that simply writing it down on the map might be easier to understand then trying to guess it from a width number or a the drawing of the corridor. I think that sometimes text is easier to interpret mechanically.

How do you reconcile that?

To be honest i did not do the math... Eventually i decided to remove the ceiling height from the room key and trust on the 'Suspension of disbelief' of the GM and the player. Am i wrong in doing so?

It would feel more natural if the two arrow slits overlooking area 2 had designations A and B (consecutive), instead of A and C (with a gap).

I agree, it makes more sense and easier to remember.

Does Knave have default rules for stuck doors?

It doesn't, it's a simple DC roll. But i removed the Strength check from the 'Room Key' because i felt the description itself "hangs of dilapidated hinges" or "Bloated and rotten wood" is a good enough signifier for the GM to give it a DC roll if needed.

Does Knave really use all those?

Yes you have save and DC rolls in Knave. But i removed the strength checks from the doors and the barrels and kept them in the traps.

 

[RoeeAV]

I really hope to boot up my old PC and show you guys what it looked like one of these days. I did nearly a whole dungeon in the format (like 50+ pages).

I would love to read it! I am now in this rabbit hole of finding the perfect format and layout. Your work might save me alot of headaches LOL

 

[RoeeAV]

1. Reduced the amount of bulleted paragraphs.
2. Removed the 'Strength checks' from the doors and barrels.
   Because i felt the the descriptive text will be a good enough signifier for the GM to to give it a DC roll if needed.
3. Updated the map with the proper 'Trap' drawings.
4. Sulfur smell is now connected to the door section and the trap activates from the iron door itself instead from the walls.
   Now logically and mechanically the trap and door are more connected.
5. Removed 'Dark' and room height.

 

[Osrnoob]

Honestly Guy's and others advice in this thread is a masterclass. This kinda advice is exactly what we need more of!

Guy, I am reading Many Gates of a Gann right now and its really good.

I like how you use sentense fragments to maximize terseness and usability.

 

[Beoric]

I like the new one. Easy to read and understand at a glance, easy to find information. I think you are close to done.

I see you moved arrowloop "B" so it clearly covers the NW corner, good call.

My only quibble is the use of a "pressure plate" for the pit. I think you may be going for a "hinged" or "latch" lid.

 

[RoeeAV]

"hinged" or "latch" lid.

Thank you for these articles, very interesting stuff!
I think i will change it to 'Latch lid' it's more accurate and i love the fact that it's a mechanical device the party can discover if they look closely.

 

[squeen]

I like it better too. Map is very clear!

Again, consider bumping the font-size down...even if it's just for the sub bullets.

If not Sans font for everything, then try it on just the stat-block to make it stand out.