The state of Post-OSR content

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
But the more general topic of this thread was whether "the OSR" has outlived its usefulness. That, I think, is bollocks.
How so? I mean, there's no denying it had it uses - it lit a fire underneath the asses of adventure designers and bloggers to get a bunch of new stuff on the market (even if 95% of it is garbage, going by Bryce), and it was a good rallying call for fellow designers to gather together in cooperation under a common banner, but what use does it have now?

Keep in mind, I'm not questioning the use of old-school adventures, or homebrew content, or even retro-clones... I'm wondering why there's still a need to keep the OSR Badge stapled to websites and modules. And let's face it, it's not like there's some "OSR Central" where dozens or writers chained to their desks are churning out materials and coordinating the content markets... so what purpose does it serve? Branding? Because the branding is a mixed bag; some might say downright toxic in a few places.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@Melan: Nice review. I'm going to grab a copy.
Also like your new avatar icon: much less intimidating!

@Yora: I'd also throw out in response to your question the two Guy Fullerton (et al.) modules the Hyqueous Vaults (2017) and The Withered Drag (2019). Also (from Byrce's recent reviews): Dead in the Water, Citadel of the Dark Trolls, The Keep of the Broken Saint, Pollute the Elfen Memory Water, to name a few of the good ones. Agreed they are in the minority of new content, but there's still a few gems popping up here and there.

Anyway, Yora, has your original question been answered yet? So far I surmise that the OSR is universally agreed to have declined from its peak (in 2008-2012?), and no one has put forth any kind of dominate modern "rules-light" DIY system successor (5e debatable). So it appears that the OD&D community has split itself along the lines of various relatively-interchangable clones (factions...how appropriate!). Perhaps the initial need for a "old school" system has been forfilled and now we can all just get back to playing. Maybe there isn't a great number of new DIY content modules coming to light because DIY old-schoolers tend to also DIY what they are playing. IIRC Rob Kuntz and TSR used to wonder (wrongly) during the early days why/if anyone would even buy modules when they should be making them.

Also a random-ish thought that occurred to me earlier in the thread (because I haven't attempted to derailed this topic enough): How much of the odd redirection of 3e/4e D&D was due to Wizards of the Coast trying to infuse it with elements of their much more popular and profitable Magic:The Gathering?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Keep in mind, I'm not questioning the use of old-school adventures, or homebrew content, or even retro-clones... I'm wondering why there's still a need to keep the OSR Badge stapled to websites and modules. And let's face it, it's not like there's some "OSR Central" where dozens or writers chained to their desks are churning out materials and coordinating the content markets... so what purpose does it serve? Branding? Because the branding is a mixed bag; some might say downright toxic in a few places.
I think I see more clearly your point DP. The OSR "brand" was a bit abused by gate-keepers and has some bad emotional baggage. Also, it's not being actively maintained as a "brand" or even "organization", so why not just drop it and consign it to a historical period that is over. Correct?

The only purpose it currently serves in my mind is as a useful label for post-2006 content that still uses some semblance of OD&D/1e rules/vib. It says: it's not anything published by TSR or Judges Guild from the 70s/80s, but in a compatible vein. If you drop the use of OSR, what you are forced to say is the more verbally awkward "new old-school D&D" or 0e/1e retro-clone. It's handy because it's both short and unambiguous and (because I don't have the historical baggage and/or desire to gate-keep) nice because it's general and kind of intellectually clever. (What is doesn't say is if it's any good!) Am I misconstruing or misappropriating the term?

In a similar way, just saying "5e" is unambiguous and concise---also (after reading over the SRD you kindly linked) clearly different.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
If you drop the use of OSR, what you are forced to say is the more verbally awkward "new old-school D&D" or 0e/1e retro-clone.
Products only need to say what system it's designed for: Labyrinth Lord or OSRIC or whatever. People who play those systems know what they're about... you don't need to say "old-school adventure" because as Beoric and I have been trying to hammer home, "old school adventures" are a product of the design style and module thematics, not the ruleset.

You wouldn't say "For play with the Tunnels & Trolls system" and "new-old-school D&D" on the same product - it's just redundant. Same deal with the OSR label.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
you don't need to say "old-school adventure" because as Beoric and I have been trying to hammer home, "old school adventures" are a product of the design style and module thematics, not the ruleset.
Not quite what I was saying because you dropped the word "new" from "new old-school". That's what OSR says to me in just a single word: a product of the post OGL/SRD/OSRIC/S&W era. (Also, please put down that hammer...yikes! first an axe, now a hammer...)

More questions about dropping OSR from the common vocabulary:

What if a product is not targeting a specific system and is just generally OSR compatible?

What about usage in the general blogosphere/forums? For example, Palindromedary wrote in his earlier post "...Most people get by with OD&D, 1st edition, B/X, or some OSR variant of the above...". That's kinda wordy when the last part "OSR variant" is a convenient umbrella statement to mean all of the former plus some others.

And while I understand and agree with your's and Beoric's point that "old school" is in part style not rules/content, I would still like to know if a product is 5e vs. OSR---one implies more and one less adaptation on my part. The tweaks 5e has made to the game are not necessarily fatally bad---they might even be good---but they "feel odd" and "wrong" to me and are not really the game I am looking for. Some word or phrase should help identity "that game". OD&D or 0e/1e compatible might server that purpose, but it doesn't delineate between content made in this millennium from the previous. OSR does that---precisely because of the word "renaissance" or "rebirth".

OMG. Yora is right. I'm arguing about what OSR means. Ack. I'll stop.
DP---you are a naughty, naughty trickster! I yield!

How about we take the discussion in a different direction---away from OSR and towards 5e. Tell me what you like about it. Are there some fun improvements in the 5e system that I should look more closely at? I know about advantage/disadvantage already, and I promise not to be argumentative--just curious.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Agree to disagree then. If something is system agnostic, then you'd probably just omit the system, or you say "An adventure module for any of your favorite RPG systems" or whatever. If something fits what you'd deem an "OSR system", then it's better to be specific - OSR compatible, does that include Castles & Crusades? Can I use it with Chainmail? It's not specific, so it shouldn't be used in place of an actual named system because you'll get some guy who buys an OSR product only to learn that it's written for B/X when he thought it was for Labyrinth Lord, etc.

As for 5e - I personally dig the way they assign proficiencies through character Backgrounds. I dig the d20 system - I think it's the most straightforward way of resolving action outcomes, and 5e did a good job of cutting down modifier bloat for the d20 system. I dig the races, even the optional ones like lizardfolk and aasimar. I dig the fact that Wizards released the SRD for it so that writers can make content and expand the game beyond official publications. I dig the Roll20 support. I dig the move to update old adventures for 5e (Tales From The Yawning Portal, Dungeon of the Mad Mage [Undermountain], Ghosts of Saltmarsh and the like). I dig the simplified Weakness/Resistance mechanics, lair/region effects, and ability recharges for monsters (they're done in a way that's not video-gamey, I swear!). I dig the Advantage/Disadvantage system. I dig the fact that they knee-capped powergamers and min/maxers using proper balance. I dig the Attunement mechanics for magic items to make player choices about what to keep and what to nix more meaningful, instead of having characters decked head-to-toe in everything magic. I dig the way they re-worked wands and magic items with charges. I dig the way they balanced armor and the bounded accuracy system for better verisimilitude. I dig the easy-to-remember Grapple rules.

I know I sound like I'm up on 5e's nuts right now, but honestly it's a great system once you get to knowing it (I also dig the way it's super easy for newbies to learn). It has it's problems, sure - Classes have more abilities than grognards are comfortable with (though nowhere near as pervasive as 3 or 4e), wildshape and summoning spells can be daunting to keep track of, and the mounted combat system is almost non-existent. On the plus side, Advantage/Disadvantage generally fills the gaps when a DM needs to make an ad-hoc ruling ("Leaping from a chandelier into the attack? I don't know what specific rule that'd fall under, so I guess just roll with Advantage")
 
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Commodore

*eyeroll*
This is a fascinating discussion. I read a lot of OSR things like this, but I’m like Ben Franklin listening to Great Reformation preaching, more interested in the science of the thing than in really absorbing the message. It’s clearly a niche with religious overtones; walls of text like what are getting deployed don’t get written without heartfelt zeal. Hey, you guys produce excellent Gothic art, what have the Vegans ever given the world?

Still, the genuine question I have for all of you is what do your players think of the OSR? This is a bunch of Dungeon Game Master Referees. About 80% or more of the people playing old schoolish stuff are players, though. I get the impression most of you would hate my players, who generally find even 5e overly restrictive in terms of choices for characters in long term campaigns (I run Pathfinder most often). How do you sell old school to new people without even the cultural cachet of Critical Role or other touchstones? Or is the OSR mostly made up of DMs running for DMs on G+?

I love a lot of old school concepts but I sure feels like “OSR” means “clinically insane person making arthouse fever dream books” in a lot of cases now. I have yet to hear of anyone actually playing half of the most imaginative and praised things with “we were OSR but now it’s toxic so we’re DIY” titles on the bumper now.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Products only need to say what system it's designed for: Labyrinth Lord or OSRIC or whatever. People who play those systems know what they're about... you don't need to say "old-school adventure" because as Beoric and I have been trying to hammer home, "old school adventures" are a product of the design style and module thematics, not the ruleset.

You wouldn't say "For play with the Tunnels & Trolls system" and "new-old-school D&D" on the same product - it's just redundant. Same deal with the OSR label.
I've been playing D&D for a long time..35 years? But I've only hit 'the scene' on the internet about 5 years ago, checking forums and blogs out--so I'm pretty naive. For me, when I see Tunnels and Trolls...I don't know WTF that is. Judges Guild--never bought the stuff when younger because I didn't know WTF it was, and wasn't interested in a different game--I only stuck with D&D material. Sorta funny right?

Or if I saw any of these products---http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html why would I even touch them?. There is like 50+ retroclones out there. You are telling me that I should just know that Legends of the Ancient World or Dungeon Squad! or Fenris 2d6 is an "old school adventure" and not some completely different game?? What about UNO and Sorry!...should I take my chances?

I don't see OSR as a label at all....I see it as an 'edition'. 5e is an edition. 3e is an edition. OSR is an edition.

"If something fits what you'd deem an "OSR system", then it's better to be specific - OSR compatible, does that include Castles & Crusades? Can I use it with Chainmail? It's not specific, so it shouldn't be used in place of an actual named system because you'll get some guy who buys an OSR product only to learn that it's written for B/X when he thought it was for Labyrinth Lord, etc."

That's why I don't see it as redundant to say "For play with Tunnels and Trolls" and OSR. I know with the OSR "label" that Tunnels and Trolls is not similar to 5e.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I don't see OSR as a label at all....I see it as an 'edition'. 5e is an edition. 3e is an edition. OSR is an edition.

That's why I don't see it as redundant to say "For play with Tunnels and Trolls" and OSR. I know with the OSR "label" that Tunnels and Trolls is not similar to 5e.
The problem is that OSR is not an edition. I can buy a 5e PHB, a 5e DMG, a 5e MM. I know that anything labeled "For D&D 5e" will work with those books. I know that if I don't see "For D&D5e" on it, my books are not going to be suited for the product. Even 4e books aren't going to be suited for the product.

I can't buy an OSR PHB, DMG, or MM.

If I have an OSRIC Rules Set, a FATE Core System 4th Edition, a GURPS 1st Edition Box Set, and a Conan: Atlantean Edition book, am I going to know which system I can use with this thing if it just says 'OSR compatible" on it? The module is going to need to specify, and if it specifies anyway, then why bother with the OSR label? If you're new to the scene, the term OSR means jack-squat to you. A more straightforward approach is a blanket term like "System neutral" or "Can be used with most pencil & paper RPG systems". That gets the message across.

OSR is a branding thing for a specific movement (the word Renaissance is right there in it ). Always has been. But movements are not products. Modules ARE products. Labeling stuff "OSR compatible" is like labeling food "Vegan Friendly"... while cool for vegans to know at a glance, it tells the rest of us almost nothing about what we are getting. Sure, you know there's no meat or eggs in it, but what about sugar or gluten or allergens? Even a vegan wouldn't just buy anything that says "Vegan Friendly" on it - there's a distinct difference between a vegan granola bar and a vegan summer squash soup.
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
The problem is that OSR is not an edition. I can buy a 5e PHB, a 5e DMG, a 5e MM. I know that anything labeled "For D&D 5e" will work with those books. I know that if I don't see "For D&D5e" on it, my books are not going to be suited for the product. Even 4e books aren't going to be suited for the product.

I can't buy an OSR PHB, DMG, or MM.

If I have an OSRIC Rules Set, a FATE Core System 4th Edition, a GURPS 1st Edition Box Set, and a Conan: Atlantean Edition book, am I going to know which system I can use with this thing if it just says 'OSR compatible" on it? The module is going to need to specify, and if it specifies anyway, then why bother with the OSR label? If you're new to the scene, the term OSR means jack-squat to you. A more straightforward approach is a blanket term like "System neutral" or "Can be used with most pencil & paper RPG systems". That gets the message across.

OSR is a branding thing for a specific movement (the word Renaissance is right there in it ). Always has been. But movements are not products. Modules ARE products. Labeling stuff "OSR compatible" is like labeling food "Vegan Friendly"... while cool for vegans to know at a glance, it tells the rest of us almost nothing about what we are getting. Sure, you know there's no meat or eggs in it, but what about sugar or gluten or allergens? Even a vegan wouldn't just buy anything that says "Vegan Friendly" on it - there's a distinct difference between a vegan granola bar and a vegan summer squash soup.
"Can be used with most pencil & paper RPG systems" is great, but doesn't cover it completely for me. 5e is a pencil and paper RPG...so is 4e and 3e...so just saying 'most' isn't going to work for me in helping me decide if I can use it or not.

I'm hearing you and see your point, but I respectfully disagree....like I said a few posts up...I had 6 people and myself try to convert my OSR material to 5e and they all pretty much failed. But I have taken Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC and other OSR labeled rulesets and have easily converted my material to it. That's why I see it as an edition. OSR compatible to me means that the product can easily be converted.

I bought my OSR PHB, DMG, and MM books---it's simply my preferred OSR system and all the OSR compatible materials out there will work because its easy to convert on the fly. If it's not easy to convert--then it doesn't have the OSR label on it and I know not to purchase that material as it would be difficult to use quickly. It's the same with your 5e material and not buying 4e stuff because you know it won't work easily.

In my opinion, saying the OSR label is redundant and unneeded is like me saying they should just call it Dungeons & Dragons and not 5e Dungeons & Dragons. But we both know that doesn't work. It needs that edition label to know for sure..and that's why I see OSR as simply an edition label.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
In my opinion, saying the OSR label is redundant and unneeded is like me saying they should just call it Dungeons & Dragons and not 5e Dungeons & Dragons. But we both know that doesn't work. It needs that edition label to know for sure..and that's why I see OSR as simply an edition label.
Ah, but this enforces my point.

Dungeons & Dragons = nonspecific. Will 3e work? Who knows.
5e Dungeon & Dragons = specific. No, 3e will not be the same thing.

OSR = nonspecific. Will Metamorphosis Alpha work? Who knows.
Labyrinth Lord = specific. No, Metamorphosis Alpha will not be the same thing.
System Agnostic = specific. Will Metamorphosis Alpha work? Yes, as would Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, and anything else because the adventure is written as a framework non-contingent on rules.
 

Palindromedary

*eyeroll*
Labeling stuff "OSR compatible" is like labeling food "Vegan Friendly"... while cool for vegans to know at a glance, it tells the rest of us almost nothing about what we are getting. Sure, you know there's no meat or eggs in it, but what about sugar or gluten or allergens? Even a vegan wouldn't just buy anything that says "Vegan Friendly" on it - there's a distinct difference between a vegan granola bar and a vegan summer squash soup.
Its obvious widespread existence and the success of the OSR label on DriveThru should tell you at a glance that your analysis is flawed. To take your analogy further, no one sees "OSR" and expects it to tell them everything and anything, just as no one expects "vegan friendly" to reveal all and yet nonetheless it's a common label. Things like these are starter metalabels that help the process of narrowing down, which I can then further follow into soups (dungeon crawls), desserts (seafaring adventures), hallucinogenics (planar adventures), etc.

I see "OSR" and I know it means "compatible with 2nd ed D&D and earlier--or clones thereof--with minimal conversions here and there". I could even detail the conversions likely to be necessary. There's no expectations of it working for Metamorphosis Alpha or Tunnels & Trolls or Chivalry & Sorcery etc without significant effort. I have a further at least assumption of "emphasizes player agency and downplays plot", but people often fail at that aspect and so I don't take it as a given; that's what reviews are for. From there I can dig further at my leisure, knowing the field has been narrowed. If I see the label on a blog, it's worth at least investing the initial time to investigate the content in a way that a "5th edition" label would not indicate. It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're making it out to be. As such,

I'm wondering why there's still a need to keep the OSR Badge stapled to websites and modules.
Because it tells people on sight what they're likely to get, like any good label does. The fact that someone who doesn't play fantasy RPGs isn't going to know what OSR means is a non-issue. People who are interested know (or can learn fairly easily), and buy their products / seek out reviews just fine based on that. It's hardly the first popular label in history that doesn't fully encompass a detailed product range and knowledge base in the name itself.
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Still, the genuine question I have for all of you is what do your players think of the OSR?
We keep playing. Week after week. Six years now. All DIY home campaign content after about the first 6-8 months of some classic modules strung together---although I keep laying hooks to fold in some cool stuff I've bought, it just never seems to happen.

One of my kids played 5e a bit in college last year with a different group. That group petered out after a half-dozen session. The demise of the sessions had a number of factors---not the least that many were 1st-time D&D players and the hobby doesn't resonate with everyone. I did hear feedback that the 5e wizard seemed much more powerful at low-level and kept saving the party's bacon (which, if true, is anathema to my sensibilities).
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Ah, but this enforces my point.

Dungeons & Dragons = nonspecific. Will 3e work? Who knows.
5e Dungeon & Dragons = specific. No, 3e will not be the same thing.

OSR = nonspecific. Will Metamorphosis Alpha work? Who knows.
Labyrinth Lord = specific. No, Metamorphosis Alpha will not be the same thing.
System Agnostic = specific. Will Metamorphosis Alpha work? Yes, as would Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC, and anything else because the adventure is written as a framework non-contingent on rules.
Fixing it....
OSR= nonspecific. Will Metamorphosis Alpha work? Probably if Metamorphosis Alpha is labeled OSR (I have no idea).

OSR is like fast food...you say you want to eat fast food, and people generally know what you are talking about.

Other than that, what Palindromedary said above.
 

Melan

*eyeroll*
Still, the genuine question I have for all of you is what do your players think of the OSR? This is a bunch of Dungeon Game Master Referees. About 80% or more of the people playing old schoolish stuff are players, though. I get the impression most of you would hate my players, who generally find even 5e overly restrictive in terms of choices for characters in long term campaigns (I run Pathfinder most often). How do you sell old school to new people without even the cultural cachet of Critical Role or other touchstones? Or is the OSR mostly made up of DMs running for DMs on G+?
I run more games these days than any time in my life except mid-university. My players seem to like it. Some play and/or run old-school games exclusively, some are also involved in 5e, and some branch out to other systems. We share a common interest.

Now, I have found that old-school gaming is sometimes easier to sell to complete newbies than people with strong preconceptions about how games should be. There is a certain 1990s kind of experienced player who were pretty much trained by the game magazines of the time to hate "AD&D", and they are pretty much hopeless. For non-hobbyists, the idea of a simple game that doesn't require a life-long investment is often a selling point.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
This is an interesting topic.

Some points.

1) I don't believe in System Agnostic adventures being any good unless they are constructed to be solved almost completely with broad ingenuity or social interaction. They fail tactically and strategically because they fail to take into account the effect of the rules on PC decision making and encounter balance, the viability of different tactical options, between-system differences in relative power differentials between PCs and their opponents etc. etc. etc. In short, System Agnostic Adventures are not adventures, they are at best Outlines of adventures that leave the hardest part up to the actual GM. I'm sure there are exceptions, I speak of this as a general rule.

2) I Played 5e for...10? Sessions until I gave it up. GM quality has something to do with it but a lot of the problems I had with it were baked into the system. I like the relative dearth of abilities and magic in older games because it forces players to be creative or to think outside the box, to set ambushes and to use trickery and genuine cunning. Conversely, 5e loads you up with at will powers right out of the gate which are mechanically more formidable then a simple ambush or cunning ruse, meaning PCs are far more likely to think in terms of winning combat through proper use of abilities then circumventing combat through trickery or ambush. There are nine bazillion other impactful mechanical differences, and stating that one can simply alter the rules to alter the game is an admission that rules are impactful on games and are thus significant. I consider 5e to be a vastly more playable though somewhat dumbed down version of 3.5.

I'm hearing you and see your point, but I respectfully disagree....like I said a few posts up...I had 6 people and myself try to convert my OSR material to 5e and they all pretty much failed. But I have taken Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC and other OSR labeled rulesets and have easily converted my material to it. That's why I see it as an edition. OSR compatible to me means that the product can easily be converted.
Amen brother. I tried a stab at converting RPR to Zweihander, the mechanical difference alone is staggering so what constitutes a good flow of encounters is utterly changed, the game has to be overhauled to accomodate for elements like Peril and skill challenges and the difference in ability between enemies and PCs is narrower. If you factor in elements like healing and how hit points work the position that rulesets are interchangeable becomes untenable.
 

DangerousPuhson

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Rebuttal:

1) I don't believe in System Agnostic adventures being any good unless they are constructed to be solved almost completely with broad ingenuity or social interaction. They fail tactically and strategically because they fail to take into account the effect of the rules on PC decision making and encounter balance, the viability of different tactical options, between-system differences in relative power differentials between PCs and their opponents etc. etc. etc. In short, System Agnostic Adventures are not adventures, they are at best Outlines of adventures that leave the hardest part up to the actual GM. I'm sure there are exceptions, I speak of this as a general rule.
Maybe nobody has been able to successfully write one yet? I envision it thusly:

The adventure presents an obstacle (combat, roleplay, puzzle, trap... literally any obstacle). The players determine how to overcome obstacle, based on what their characters can do.

No matter what edition you are playing, most options that a character can do are universal - they can always sneak, they can always speak, they can always fight, they can always run away, they can always climb walls, they can always hide, etc.

Yes, in a sense, the version of the game you're playing determines how likely a party is to do one action over the other - if sneaking is difficult to accomplish in Game X but easy in Game Y, the players of Game Y are more likely to sneak by the obstacle than the players of Game X would be.

Here's the thing though - the author of a system agnostic adventure (if he's doing the job right) isn't supposed to allude to the "right way" for the party to overcome the obstacle. That's called railroading, and it's always been a hallmark of bad design. So if the adventure designer has made the obstacle solvable only by sneaking, then yes, they have failed to take into account the effects of the rules. Bad designer. BUT, if problems can be solved in more than one way, then the rule system used to render a success or failure verdict (and that's literally what a rule system is supposed to do) is inconsequential. The players choose an action, the rules are used to determine success or failure, the obstacle is passed or not.

System Agnostic adventures, done right, are only supposed to lay out a series interesting obstacles and developments, shrouded in mystery and all-important "evocativeness". I fail to see what's wrong with such a set up.

Let's take a recommended example - say Deep Carbon Observatory - an adventure that I've used, that I like, and that is critically acclaimed... if you strip out the stat blocks for the encounters (easy task), it's literally system agnostic at that point. There's no DC listed to overcome poisons. There's no "to hit" listed next to booby-traps. An OSRIC player might use a different solution to get past the crawling giant than a D&D5e player would, but it detracts nothing from the adventure (the adventure basically says the giant is invincible anyways). Is DCO a garbage adventure for it? No, it's better for it. It's versatile. I can run DCO with D&D5e as easily as I could run it with a game of Traveler.

You say that the presence or lack of certain rules changes the viability of tactics and player decision making, but I say "so what? Isn't versatility a good thing?"

2) I Played 5e for...10? Sessions until I gave it up. GM quality has something to do with it but a lot of the problems I had with it were baked into the system. I like the relative dearth of abilities and magic in older games because it forces players to be creative or to think outside the box, to set ambushes and to use trickery and genuine cunning. Conversely, 5e loads you up with at will powers right out of the gate which are mechanically more formidable then a simple ambush or cunning ruse, meaning PCs are far more likely to think in terms of winning combat through proper use of abilities then circumventing combat through trickery or ambush. There are nine bazillion other impactful mechanical differences, and stating that one can simply alter the rules to alter the game is an admission that rules are impactful on games and are thus significant. I consider 5e to be a vastly more playable though somewhat dumbed down version of 3.5.
I think your problem is that you didn't give the game a fair shot, maybe you had a bad experience, and that your opinion is heavily colored by other editions. I have run dozens and dozens of 5e sessions where my players were able to use cunning ruses and ambushes to achieve their goals, without resorting to brute-forcing a mechanical solution - you saying that you didn't get a chance to do it doesn't set any of that in stone, and your blanket assumption of all players playing/running the game in the same way you did is a bit narrow-minded.

No offense, but if your argument is that there's no room for creative solutions or imaginative scenarios in non-old-school games, then your group is likely unimaginative and uncreative, not the system. You know what more character abilities and magic gives you? More options and more choice! You don't get some "pick fireball every time to solve the problem" button; there is still much problem solving required (unless you've got a shit DM or a badly-written adventure).

I'm not saying there aren't certain rulesets out there that would be better suited for certain types of players; I am saying that writing off a whole edition as terrible because it doesn't suit your one specific group's playstyle is ridiculously shortsighted and totally unfair.

Amen brother. I tried a stab at converting RPR to Zweihander, the mechanical difference alone is staggering so what constitutes a good flow of encounters is utterly changed, the game has to be overhauled to accomodate for elements like Peril and skill challenges and the difference in ability between enemies and PCs is narrower. If you factor in elements like healing and how hit points work the position that rulesets are interchangeable becomes untenable.
My process for conversion in the past goes like this: strip away existing mechanics embedded in the obstacle to make it neutral (instead of having "DC 15 to avoid waking the dragon", you say "waking the dragon is likely if the party does not take efforts to conceal their approach") > insert the appropriate mechanics balanced to match your system ("25% to wake the dragon if any noise is made"). Voila, converted.

This works for pretty much everything.

Ghouls much stronger in 1e than 5e? Strip the stats. Describe the creature like a ghoul but use the HP/AC/etc. for a 1e goblin. Maybe don't call it a ghoul - that reference is tied to a system already; call it "Shuffling Death" or something. Converted.

Scything blades do 3d6 damage - dangerous to OSRIC but less so for 5e. "Scything blades fall from ceiling - DM discretion for damage"... it's agnostic now. Sub in whatever damage is fair for your system. Converted.

Fireball does 6d6 damage... too overpowered for your characters at their level? Change the damage. 2d6. Converted.

20' wide pit trap? Non-system specific already. Many ways to bypass independent of rules. No need to even convert anything.

Climbing wall in a system with no climbing? Well, that's a system problem, not an adventure problem.

Maybe I'm failing to see some unseen hardship for you guys in all this; an example of something you can't easily convert would go a long way to clear this up, because right now I can't grasp what the fuss is about.
 
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Yora

Should be playing D&D instead
I have to say that in practice, I only ever used an adventure unconverted once. No other adventure I ever used was both matching the system of my campaign and the level of the party. And for that one exception, we created new characters specifically for just that adventure. And I often run campaigns in custom settings, so many of the creatures have to be switched out to something more fitting to the setting.

If an adventure had no stats for monster and NPCs, it wouldn't actually cause any additional work for me.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Let's dance.


The adventure presents an obstacle (combat, roleplay, puzzle, trap... literally any obstacle). The players determine how to overcome obstacle, based on what their characters can do.

No matter what edition you are playing, most options that a character can do are universal - they can always sneak, they can always speak, they can always fight, they can always run away, they can always climb walls, they can always hide, etc.

Yes, in a sense, the version of the game you're playing determines how likely a party is to do one action over the other - if sneaking is difficult to accomplish in Game X but easy in Game Y, the players of Game Y are more likely to sneak by the obstacle than the players of Game X would be.
I feel like you are grasping the sense of the argument but you are not following through on the implications.

Here's the thing though - the author of a system agnostic adventure (if he's doing the job right) isn't supposed to allude to the "right way" for the party to overcome the obstacle. That's called railroading, and it's always been a hallmark of bad design. So if the adventure designer has made the obstacle solvable only by sneaking, then yes, they have failed to take into account the effects of the rules. Bad designer. BUT, if problems can be solved in more than one way, then the rule system used to render a success or failure verdict (and that's literally what a rule system is supposed to do) is inconsequential. The players choose an action, the rules are used to determine success or failure, the obstacle is passed or not.

System Agnostic adventures, done right, are only supposed to lay out a series interesting obstacles and developments, shrouded in mystery and all-important "evocativeness". I fail to see what's wrong with such a set up.
First, you rely on a sort of ideal image for a System Agnostic Adventure that does not, and cannot, logically exist. Any obstacle is always going to allude to a subsection of possible answers and eliminate others if players actions are to matter. Otherwise you are also railroading, since the players actions do not meaningfully affect the outcome (since all are equally likely and plausible). I could argue for a further narrowing of the number of possible courses of action dictated by the adventure format, source material and public expectation of what constitutes an adventure but you get my drift. Therefore, any obstacle is going to have several ways of tackling it that are more likely then others, and since those methods have different implications and effectiveness in different rulesets, the ruleset does, in fact, matter.

System Agnostic adventures, done right, are only supposed to lay out a series interesting obstacles and developments, shrouded in mystery and all-important "evocativeness". I fail to see what's wrong with such a set up.
But then you agree with my premise that they are little more then outlines. There is nothing wrong with a good outline, but they are not complete adventures or not playable as complete adventures unless you put in significant effort. However, I am willing to examine a system agnostic example of a good adventure.

Let's take a recommended example - say Deep Carbon Observatory - an adventure that I've used, that I like, and that is critically acclaimed... if you strip out the stat blocks for the encounters (easy task), it's literally system agnostic at that point. There's no DC listed to overcome poisons. There's no "to hit" listed next to booby-traps. An OSRIC player might use a different solution to get past the crawling giant than a D&D5e player would, but it detracts nothing from the adventure by omitting stats for the giant (in fact, it does omit the stats - the adventure basically says the giant is invincible anyways). Is DCO a garbage adventure for it? No, it's better for it. It's versatile. I can run DCO with D&D5e as easily as I could run it with a game of Traveler.

You say that the presence or lack of certain rules changes the viability of tactics and player decision making, but I say "so what? Isn't versatility a good thing?"
I know of Deep Carbon Observatory (I mean I reviewed it on my blog, I like it a little less then I did when I first came out but still, it is definetely evocative and wonderfully creative) but it is a bad example since it has mechanics and was designed with oldschool sensibilities and oldschool rules and abilities in mind. There's no DC listed because under oldschool dnd the saving throw mechanic is dependent on player level, not the poison in question. Same for the trap. I am curious how you came to the conclusion that the Giant does not have statt points:

"He moves as a Lvl 15 thief. He can smell everything within a cubic mile. He can hear your heartbeat in your chest in the next room. (Armour: as Plate, HD15, Hp250, move 60' Special Damage) ( 80) He has three means of attack. 1. To grab with one hand and crush; an attack, grapple check, then 2d12 every round with successive checks. 2. To grab with both hands and twist your body like cheese; an attack, then ld12 damage for every round of twisting, cumulative. So ld12 on round one, 2d12 on round two, 3d12 on round three etc. 3. To eat; target must be caught first, then 5d6 chewing damage every round. Rolls to hit every round with advantage, on a miss, the target is swallowed whole, takes 2d6 damage every round inside his body and can try cutting their way out. "

All of those numbers and abilities have connotations within the context of the OSR game it is based on. You mention they are light, and they are, I find that is one of the strengths of OSR gaming, since I think everyone having multiple abilities detracts from the immersion of the roleplaying experience. However, that Giant has a connotation, an intent in the scenario if you will, and that intent is shaped by its nature (pale pliable murder giant of silence) and the rules are how it interacts with the players and shape how the PCs are likely to interact with it. If Stewart had written that same giant with 2 Hit points and an AC of 9, everyone would have lambasted him since the Giants intended nature does not work within the context of the rules. It is a defective giant. Its stats have an impact on the impression is meant to make.

The argument is not that you cannot run the giant under Traveller or 5e. The argument is that the way the Giant interacts with the players change in a different system and if the System is different enough and you must do an increasing amount of tinkering to still get the same Intent. Consider how abilities vary across systems. I imagine in Traveller some sort of tricorder or motion-sensor is not unimaginable (i'll use Stars Without Number for comparison since I am more familiar with that system). Psychics in Stars have relatively low level access to teleportation abilities that are simply inconceivable within oldschool DnD. The claustrophobic nature and the stealth of the giant as stated are not equipped to handle those abilities without considerable tinkering.

Bryce himself often lambasts detective DnD for just this reason. Because of a plethora of low level divination spells like augury, detect thoughts, ESP, zone of truth, detect evil and so on, mystery in DnD is all but impossible without copious bullshit handwaving that feels cheap. The system as written gives the players too many abilities to short-circuit any intriguing mystery.

You say that the presence or lack of certain rules changes the viability of tactics and player decision making, but I say "so what? Isn't versatility a good thing?"
Versatility is a good thing, but this is not deliberate change or giving room to additional abilities, this is a twisting, analogous to jury-rigging a PC so it can run N64 cartridges. There is always something lost in translation, and the noise increases as the systems begin to diverge more radically. Don't believe me? Try running DCO on WoD or Polaris.

In summary, I suggest my honourable opponent has not fully thought through the implications of a changing ruleset and I hope that my argument may illuminate him as to his errors and bring him into the light of reason, there to abide with Gary. Amen.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Had to do a two-parter. Sorry everyone!


I think your problem is that you didn't give the game a fair shot, maybe you had a bad experience, and that your opinion is heavily colored by other editions. I have run dozens and dozens of 5e sessions where my players were able to use cunning ruses and ambushes to achieve their goals, without resorting to brute-forcing a mechanical solution - you saying that you didn't get a chance to do it doesn't set any of that in stone, and your blanket assumption of all players playing/running the game in the same way you did is a bit narrow-minded.
This is idle speculation followed by gibberish. I would propose that my reference for what makes a good game is actually made stronger by playing other editions, not weaker, since I have other editions to compare it too.

You are strawmanning my argument. I said the plethora of abilities make it more likely that players will resort to direct combat and less likely to resort to improvisation. Do you agree with this line of reasoning? As empirical evidence I put forth Bryce's reviews of typical 5e adventures vs typical OSR adventures.
No offense, but if your argument is that there's no room for creative solutions or imaginative scenarios in non-old-school games, then your group is likely unimaginative and uncreative, not the system. You know what more character abilities and magic gives you? More options and more choice! You don't get some "pick fireball every time to solve the problem" button; there is still much problem solving required (unless you've got a shit DM or a badly-written adventure).
Strawman. You have an absolutionist way of arguing that does you a disservice. I said it was less likely, not that it could not or did not occur. However, you did finally make a positive statement, namely that more abilities result in more options and more choice. I say that while this can, under certain circumstances like, say, Wildshape, be accurate, in general, having a plethora of combat options and abilities and feat choices makes it likelier that players will find ways to use those in combat and less likely that they will try something out of the box, use their imagination to do something that isn't on their character sheet, or use diplomacy or a cunning ruse. If you disagree, then why are so many adventures in 5e like this? In fact, I suggest you look into 3e d20 and contrast it with oldschool dnd if you are curious as to how a baroque and complex system with a plethora of abilities can utterly change the way a game is played.


I'm not saying there aren't certain rulesets out there that would be better suited for certain types of players; I am saying that writing off a whole edition as terrible because it doesn't suit your one specific group's playstyle is ridiculously shortsighted and totally unfair.
You are almost there. Extrapolate that one. Some sets work better for different players because different players like different things. So Rulesets faciliate different playstyles. So Rulesets do in fact matter and CAN make a huge difference depending on the type of game you play.

The second one is a woeful misreading of intent. I gave up my game, I didn't give up on 5e, I just don't consider it that interesting. Even if I did give it up, what of it? I've played all editions of DnD, ran a shitton of sessions for Basic, Lotfp, 3.5 and AD&D, read the entire corebook and played for 10 sessions. I think that gives me excellent grounds to judge whether or not a system is for me, or whether I consider it a worthwhile contribution to the hobby. I already told you what I think of 5e in my initial statement.

Also, since you posit that my imagined standard for writing off a game is unfair, I must now challenge you to provide a measure for writing off a game which you think IS fair.
My process for conversion in the past goes like this: strip away existing mechanics embedded in the obstacle to make it neutral (instead of having "DC 15 to avoid waking the dragon", you say "waking the dragon is likely if the party does not take efforts to conceal their approach") > insert the appropriate mechanics balanced to match your system ("25% to wake the dragon if any noise is made"). Voila, converted.

This works for pretty much everything.
Then I think you should get out of your comfort zone a little bit and play some genuinely different games like Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Amber, Dark Heresy or something wackier because it doesn't at all. You assume the difference between 5e (a relatively convesion friendly, rules-light, beginner-friendly edition of DnD) and the OSR is a good analogy. It is not at all. Zweihander doesn't even really use hit points. As systems get increasingly incompatible you will find encounters no longer work as intended because the underlying rules of how they proceed have altered too much.

Maybe I'm failing to see some unseen hardship for you guys in all this; an example of something you can't easily convert would go a long way to clear this up, because right now I can't grasp what the fuss is about.
I think I gave you plenty of food for contention. Make me proud. My tips are too refrain from too many value judgments or disparaging personal remarks and to avoid the Continuum Fallacy, you commit it often.

Good night!
 
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