The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Surely you jest? Surely you have this backwards...
The state of Post-OSR content
- Thread starter Yora
- Start date
Surely you jest? Surely you have this backwards...
Ep 1-3 aren't awful. Only Ep 2 is truly bad.
Even Episode 2 isn't bad once you get your head around the way George Lucas uses dialogue: he once compared his dialogue to his sound effects. George Lucas is famous for his clear and distinctive sound effects (lightsabers vrooom, blasters pew pew, TIE Fighters... scream). The conversations between Anakin and Padme may be painfully adolescent to listen to, but you know what? It's painful because they're making bad-but-realistic choices, and George Lucas doesn't leave you in doubt as to what's happening. ("I killed them. I killed them all!" Padme just sort of shrugs this off, but the audience is not required to do so. We know this leads to a bad place.)
I have no problem with actual multiverses. I do have a problem with meaningless buzzwords and poor design. *Touting* a product (or movie) as "multiversal" without making any effort to draw upon that rich multiversal legacy you mention here is... just, why?
WotC-adjacent product Exploring Eberron (non-WotC-backed sequel to a setting book done by the same guy they hired to do the setting book) actually has a multiversal origin for Githyanki and mind flayers, and it's fantastic! They're refugees from an aborted timestream.
I have no problem with WotC *actually* writing multiversal content. But if they release their next book with "metaverse" in the title I'm going to gag. (Edit to add: There's no way it would feature an actual metaverse; this isn't cyberpunk. It would be pure buzzword-chasing.)
I am well aware that TSR made design mistakes too--I didn't like the Dark Sun v2 revision or Skills and Powers or the way weapon specialization restrictions relaxed over time, although arguing that those were *mistakes* per se would be hard to do without more thought than I've invested. From my perspective, this isn't an edition war for the sake of ego: it's people who are passionate about RPG design venting stream about other people's bad designs. Which is very much on brand for Ten Foot Pole, no?
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The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
But I'm here to talk about adventure design. I can't speak for 4 and 5e, and I understand that the OGL lead to a ridiculous amount of terrible adventure writing, but there were still excellent adventures written for 3e which I strongly urge you to download from your favourite purveyor of pirated products and give a read, including: 'In the Bell of the Beast', 'The Forge of Fury', 'The Vault of Larin Karr', 'Crypt of the Devil Lich'. I understand 'Rappan Athuk' goes back a waaaays, but it was initially published for 3e and we plaid it from top to bottom in that system and loved the hell out of it. Hell, even 'Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil' was pretty rad; check out this badboy:
#fun.
so cling to your system of choice all you like. I won't tell you you're wrong. I'm just saying, adventure writing isn't dead. Maybe alive and breeding out of control. But not dead...
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Except he does occasionally review stuff from later editions. Usually with strong reservations. But he does give them a fair go usually. I think the stated mission was to weed out the mountain of garbage products claiming 'OSR' DNA; which are not limited to any one particular edition of the game. Admittedly, the vast majority are retro-clone-compatible products, but he's never limited himself to a particular edition and I appreciate that greatly and think that's why a lot of people who play later editions feel welcome here.
I don't believe this argument that the edition defines the adventure design. I don't believe you have to play AD&D RAW (which sounds kinda dirty) to write an old-school style adventure. I'm willing to accept that it helps, and maybe makes the process easier, but it is certainly not imperative.
sorry dude, I think I'm prosecuting a proxy-insurgency against Squeen and Prince through you. It's super passive aggressive.
Except he does occasionally review stuff from later editions. Usually with strong reservations. But he does give them a fair go usually. ...
I don't believe this argument that the edition defines the adventure design. I don't believe you have to play AD&D RAW (which sounds kinda dirty) to write an old-school style adventure. I'm willing to accept that it helps, and maybe makes the process easier, but it is certainly not imperative.
sorry dude, I think I'm prosecuting a proxy-insurgency against Squeen and Prince through you. It's super passive aggressive.
Yeah, it is clearly not directed at me because just like you said about Bryce, I also give 5E a fair go. I just said nice things about Exploring Eberron, a 5E product, in the post that you just quoted!
And I am very open to house ruling AD&D, even moreso than when I was a teenager. As a teenager I used variant rules for magic resistance and spell points; but now I'm willing to be much more radical and potentially even throw out the Thief class as written and the whole saving throw system! I think Gygax had good design insights and goals, but that doesn't mean the solutions he found cannot be improved upon in order to better serve those goals. (E.g. I saw an Enworld post once where Gygax mentioned that he was currently toying with increasing falling damage from d6 per 10' to (1d6 + 2d6 + ... Nd6) for N = distance fallen / 10'.)
P.S. My current position on 5E is that I will run it for people who already know it, but I won't teach it. If you want to learn to play Dungeons and Dragons from me I'll be teaching you from the Rules Cyclopedia or AD&D. 5E is too complicated. That position may change once my 5E web app matures to the point where it can walk you through the rules and options.
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
No. I mean B/X. I bought it brand-spankin'-new when it hit the shelfs of my local bookstore in 1981 and was immediately disgusted that it was clearly not targeting adults as its audience. I hated (at 12) being talked down to. After UA (1985), it was---OK "fool me twice bozos..." and I never bought another TSR product, period.
I still have the pristine, unused books and module (X1). My group never played it....we were all about DIY OD&D for many years by then.
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
It's time to admit you and I have no common ground in our tastes. (And that's OK.)
Forget Star Wars---those two weren't even good movies by any measure. Is it any surprise that the directors of both were irreverent, self-aggrandizing 41-year-olds egotistical "golden-boys" when each film was made---who were never told "no, that's stupid...you have failed.".. Regurgitated hand-me-down trope-ish garbage with no sembance of a plot or character development. Video-game-ish Chaos On A Screen. Run here, run there. Total lack of movie making skill-craft. No understanding of how to tell a story. In way over their head(s). Irredeemable trash!
As Melan quite succinctly said recently: when you are so full of yourself...there's no room left to study the classics.
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
You quoted me out of context here. "[For my preferred game style...] Zero benefit gained by post Gygax D&D..." FROM CORPORATE SOURCES.
I think the OSR has brought new life to the hobby...entirely in the DIY spirit that suits it best.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
I think this article describes it very well. There was a vibe shift, and you opted out.
"This is to say, not everyone survives a vibe shift. The ones still clinging to authenticity and fairy lights are the ones who crystallized in their hipsterdom while the culture moved on. They “bunkered down in Greenpoint and got married” or took their waxed beards and nautical tattoo sleeves and relocated to Hudson. And by that law, those who survived this shift only to get stuck in, say, Hypebeast/Woke — well, they’ve already moved to Los Angeles to houses that have room to display their sneaker collections worth a small fortune. "
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
That's not quite it. Also, there is room in the world for people with different opinions. We don't need to go around declaring that people of full of themselves if they like something that you don't like. Otherwise I could say you are full of yourself with 1e.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah, seriously, there is no general dunk on the multiverse. Squeen trashed it almost a month ago, and of course he did; squeen has a very selective memory when it comes to his worship of Gygaxe-who-can-do-no-wrong-except-I-pretend-there-are-no-psionics-or-mulvitverse-or-candy-classes-or-other-stuff-I-don't-like. Nobody else has actually said anything negative, even when they quoted him.sorry dude, I think I'm prosecuting a proxy-insurgency against Squeen and Prince through you. It's super passive aggressive.
Before I stopped watching them (after The Force Repeats), there were precisely 2 good Star Wars movies and one good not-a-Star-Wars movie.
Episode 4 was good. Episode 5 was very good. Episode 6 was meh. Episode 1 was inane.
Episode 2 was really awful. I was particularly annoyed when Padme, who is at least 10 years older than Anakin and was smart and tough as nails in Ep 1, has her brains leak out her ears and become utterly useless. Bad life choices? How about dating the whiny brat you used to babysit?
Episode 3 was also pretty bad. Anakin's descent into the dark side was pretty unbelievable; not exactly Michael Rosenbaum in Smallville, was it? Anakin wasn't the only one screaming at the end of that movie.
Episode 7: as my teenage daughter said at the time, "At least they get points for recycling?"
Rogue One was very good, but thematically not a Star Wars movie. It had more themes from Star Trek or actual war movies. Squeen just doesn't like anything that deviates from expectations.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I was 12-year-old geeky outcast liking something the mainstream looked down their nose at. The term hipster hadn't even been invented yet.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
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The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm thinking about starting my kids with the BECMI red-box as a great set of training wheels.
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
So we're clear where I stand on all this. Star Wars movies are like movies with swords in them for me. (I mean I guess the lightsabers do count as swords so redundant statement?). Basically movies with swords start at a baseline of 3/5 for me. I even liked Conan the Destroyer. Hell, even The Beastmaster had its moments. ffs, I even liked Deathstalker!
The1True
8, 8, I forget what is for
Still better than Solo. That actor looked like a freak. I couldn't get past that.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
There are, but refusing to study and learn for the past is arrogant in the extreme.That's not quite it. Also, there is room in the world for people with different opinions. We don't need to go around declaring that people of full of themselves if they like something that you don't like. Otherwise I could say you are full of yourself with 1e.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Sorry, but also wrong. Solo was a much better crafted movie by a master film maker. It also reintroduced "fun" back into the franchise.
The actor choice was...um..unfortunate...on that we can agree. Harlson was eceptional.