The state of Post-OSR content

[Two orcs]

The Jedi are partly based on Dune's Bene Gesserit and since Frank Herbert is a more thoughtful writer he allows the natural conclusion to play out: They pull the strings of the entire galaxy insisting to themselves they are wiser and more moral than everyone, then their hubris produces a monster and they don't really learn a thing before being wiped out much further in the future.

 

[Hemlock]

I think the first I saw of actual oppression by the empire was SW: Rebels.

For me, the first I saw was when Tarkin killed everybody living on the planet Alderaan.

Oh, the Jedi Order is a trash organization with a trash philosophy... I can get behind a story about duty and sacrifice far more easily than a story where the magical good force in the universe wants you to have no emotions, and things like love and connection to family are a path to the dark side.

I'm just gonna leave this here.


Darth Vader: So! You have a twin sister. Your feelings for her... wait, WHAT? Oh, wow. That's messed up. And you didn't... Son, you have issues, and I feel responsible. We need to talk. [sheathes lightsaber] Why don't we go have some ice cream and talk this out?

Luke: [comes out of the shadows after a moment] Okay. You know, Yoda never wanted to discuss this with me. He just said to bury my feelings.

Darth Vader: Well, Yoda gives bad relationship advice. I should know. You can't blame him though, he's been a bachelor for almost a thousand years--that's bound to give you a skewed perspective.

Luke: *Was* a bachelor. Yoda's dead now actually.

Darth Vader: What? No! When did this happen? [exeunt]

Emperor Palpatine: ...guys? Guys? Where's my fight scene?

 

[squeen]

Basically its hard to find anyone in Star Wars who stands for anything I really care about. That may be why I like Rogue One so much...

So Beoric hates classic D&D AND Star Wars?!

 

[Beoric]

So Beoric hates classic D&D AND Star Wars?!

The "like" button really needs an eyeroll option.

Don't forget that fact that I don't think the Bombadil episode adds to the story means I "hate" Lord of the Rings, too. By your logic, the fact that you don't like "candy classes" means that you hate AD&D and you hate Gary Gygax.

 

[The Heretic]

Still thinking about this. The Jedi are taken from their parents as children and raised to not have personal connections, and to believe their philosophy is inherently good. That would be fine if they were a secluded and contemplative order, but they are a militant order that acts as advisors to politicians who appear to be morally, physically and mystically inferior to them. It is hard for me to accept that would not eventually lead to them asserting a lot of power and influence over the people they advise, and trying to guide policy as they saw fit. Guidance which would inevitably lead to problems in governance, because they can have no understanding of the lives of ordinary people, or respect for their frailties. And then the Jedi would blame the failures on the ineptness of the politicians, and the whole thing would spiral until the Jedi concluded that nobody was competent to run things except them.

So you're saying that the Jedi Order was the Roman Catholic Church of the Galactic Republic. Spot on.

 

[squeen]

The "like" button really needs an eyeroll option.

Don't forget that fact that I don't think the Bombadil episode adds to the story means I "hate" Lord of the Rings, too. By your logic, the fact that you don't like "candy classes" means that you hate AD&D and you hate Gary Gygax.

FWIW, I don't think think you hate everything about classic D&D---although EGG is not one of your favorite writers, I'd guess. The Star Wars admission did catch me by surprise, I'll admit.

Bombadil is more of a personality litmus-test, which is why I mentally place you in the "staid" category. That's no crime. I've actually been thinking about this in the context of Prince's Zock Block podcast interview. There's (IMO) something very "direct" (treading lightly here!) about the vibe of Heavy Metal music---Prince's favorite/only genre of choice. Things like Bombadil, and the diversionary nature of that side-jaunt, may bother him for that reason. A "staid" fellow (like yourself?) might also find that kind of whimsy tiresome. In contrast, I enjoy whimsy (Winnie the Pooh, Wind in the Willows, The Hobbit, etc.) and feel that things like the quasi-mono-emotional, steady push-towards-a-goal (akin to Heavy Metal's adrenaline-rush), lacks nuance---the full dynamic range of tension and release. It's difficult to be surprised in a one-note/one-volume world. I've actually mentioned this to Prince a few times in the context of adventure design. In play, I believe there needs to be some paths that lead to the Bombadils of the world, because those hidden non-sequitars feel less contrived than a linear plot born from the human mind, and more natural.

So you're saying that the Jedi Order was the Roman Catholic Church of the Galactic Republic. Spot on.

Oh...you people...sod off with pouring bile on simple beautiful things. Must we always tear down what came before? Must darkness taint all memories? Can anything that's not currently "trending" be good? What did the past ever do to you? Barbarism.

 

[Malrex]

I think....all of you need to go on a long hike...

 

[squeen]

I think....all of you need to go on a long hike...

Last week was a family camping. Wonderful. I drew trees.

 

[Grützi]

Yeah, the Jedi order as shown in the movies only... is kinda problematic in many, many ways.

They are basically a pseudo-religious-elite-professional-military-structure that is nearly completely uprooted from the surrounding society.
Yet they still "serve" the interests of that society in very ill defined ways.
They seem to have special privileges in the way they are treated before the law and even have some privilege in enforcing or interpreting the law.

The order itself hasn't got the internal hierachy and structure to support itself in some major ways:
1. For a organization of the orders size it's internal hierarchy/internal structure is hilariously basic, lacking and ill defined.
2. There seems to be no mechanism to solve problems that arise from within the order except for exile (by order of the council or self exile (count dooku))

Even hierachical contact to the outside world is really ill defined... like the jedi serve the republic... and that's it?
So the chancelor "may" give them orders? or are they merely suggestions?
If they are a military there needs to be a clear structure of "who can tell who else to do stuff"... it seems to work on the assumption, that the jedi will somehow do the right thing in the end.

 

[Hemlock]

FWIW, I don't think think you hate everything about classic D&D---although EGG is not one of your favorite writers, I'd guess.

I know I'm new here but this conversation feels familiar. I think I've seen someone tell Beoric before that he doesn't like Gygax, and Beoric responded that he agrees with Gygax sometimes but tends to respond with "like" when he agrees and a post when he disagrees, giving the (false) impression that he doesn't like Gygax.

@Beoric am I approximately correct about your feelings on Gygax?

So you're saying that the Jedi Order was the Roman Catholic Church of the Galactic Republic. Spot on.

Hmmm. Are you suggesting that George Lucas was drawing a deliberate parallel? If so, there's enough similarity (especially the celibacy requirement but also the number twelve, the wide range of roles played by Jedi, and the monk-ish wardrobe) that I suspect you may be right.

For the record, the fact that Episode I Jedi are clearly more superspies than super-soldiers is one of the things I like best about Episode I. Qui-gon is apparently the only Jedi who is smart enough to run and hide when faced with a superior force, and then come back much later when he has force superiority. I love Qui-gon.

 

[The Heretic]

Oh...you people...sod off with pouring bile on simple beautiful things. Must we always tear down what came before? Must darkness taint all memories? Can anything that's not currently "trending" be good? What did the past ever do to you? Barbarism.

Lol, what are you talking about? There's that quote, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions". And there's also the reason why the West has decided to go secular. The world of politics is dirty. It requires moral ambiguity and compromises. Mixing religion and politics leads to the degradation of both. The Jedi Order would be tempted to intervene and become more political, and it would be bad for both them and the Republic.

(besides, I need to earn my Heretical name, do I not?)

As for "must darkness taint all memories"? The past was destroyed when Lucas decided to film the prequels. He would've been better off leaving it as it was.

 

[The Heretic]

Hmmm. Are you suggesting that George Lucas was drawing a deliberate parallel? If so, there's enough similarity (especially the celibacy requirement but also the number twelve, the wide range of roles played by Jedi, and the monk-ish wardrobe) that I suspect you may be right.

For the record, the fact that Episode I Jedi are clearly more superspies than super-soldiers is one of the things I like best about Episode I. Qui-gon is apparently the only Jedi who is smart enough to run and hide when faced with a superior force, and then come back much later when he has force superiority. I love Qui-gon.

Possibly? Hasn't he said that he was mixing Eastern and Western spirituality together when he came up with the Force? And don't forget the 'virgin birth' of Anakin!

What about that bit with the fish guys (sorry, haven't watched the Phantom Menace in years) at the beginning, where they worry that the Jedi are there to use their force powers to force a peace treaty? That's very morally dubious. Were the fishies exaggerating or was that something that the Jedi would actually do?

 

[squeen]

I think the Jedi were patterned after samuri, but the Knights Templar might be the closest Western equivalent.

 

[Beoric]

Bombadil is more of a personality litmus-test, which is why I mentally place you in the "staid" category. That's no crime. I've actually been thinking about this in the context of Prince's Zock Block podcast interview. There's (IMO) something very "direct" (treading lightly here!) about the vibe of Heavy Metal music---Prince's favorite/only genre of choice. Things like Bombadil, and the diversionary nature of that side-jaunt, may bother him for that reason. A "staid" fellow (like yourself?) might also find that kind of whimsy tiresome. In contrast, I enjoy whimsy (Winnie the Pooh, Wind in the Willows, The Hobbit, etc.) and feel that things like the quasi-mono-emotional, steady push-towards-a-goal (akin to Heavy Metal's adrenaline-rush), lacks nuance---the full dynamic range of tension and release. It's difficult to be surprised in a one-note/one-volume world. I've actually mentioned this to Prince a few times in the context of adventure design. In play, I believe there needs to be some paths that lead to the Bombadils of the world, because those hidden non-sequitars feel less contrived than a linear plot born from the human mind, and more natural.

I don't object to the Bombadil segment as a self-contained story. It is merely not relevant to the progression of the story being told by LotR, except insofar as it overlapped with Merry picking up a magic weapon on the Barrow Downs. If it had been in a collection of short stories I would have been fine with it. It isn't a "whimsy" thing, its a "story structure" thing.

I know I'm new here but this conversation feels familiar. I think I've seen someone tell Beoric before that he doesn't like Gygax, and Beoric responded that he agrees with Gygax sometimes but tends to respond with "like" when he agrees and a post when he disagrees, giving the (false) impression that he doesn't like Gygax.

@Beoric am I approximately correct about your feelings on Gygax?

Yes, that would have been Squeen telling me I don't like Gygax. In reference to Gygax' work, I think on balance the work he did in the 70s was good, and the work thereafter was more hit and miss. Because it was (with Arneson) first, it can't be expected to be perfect; there are things that can be improved upon, and it is worth talking about those things. That isn't a dig on Gygax, it is what I would reasonably expected of anyone doing something for the first time. But if I, for instance, say that Hommlet includes a lot of detail that won't add much to most campaigns, and that space would have been better used fleshing out some of the major NPCs, somebody takes that as me hating Gygax' work.

In terms of Gygax as a human being, I think he was a bit of a dick who partially redeemed himself later in life.

 

[The Heretic]

I don't object to the Bombadil segment as a self-contained story. It is merely not relevant to the progression of the story being told by LotR, except insofar as it overlapped with Merry picking up a magic weapon on the Barrow Downs. If it had been in a collection of short stories I would have been fine with it. It isn't a "whimsy" thing, its a "story structure" thing.

Someone made the case that Tom Bombadil is meant to be a metaphor for the (young) reader. The story is going to get scary, but you are Tom Bombadil, you have power over the story. Oh, that was a horrible way of explaining it. Let me see if I can find it.

 

[Beoric]

Someone made the case that Tom Bombadil is meant to be a metaphor for the (young) reader. The story is going to get scary, but you are Tom Bombadil, you have power over the story. Oh, that was a horrible way of explaining it. Let me see if I can find it.

Maybe. I first read it when I was 10, and I can't say that I identified with Bombadil in that way, but maybe others do.

 

[squeen]

I don't object to the Bombadil segment as a self-contained story. It is merely not relevant to the progression of the story being told by LotR, except insofar as it overlapped with Merry picking up a magic weapon on the Barrow Downs. If it had been in a collection of short stories I would have been fine with it. It isn't a "whimsy" thing, its a "story structure" thing.

Having patience with non-linear tangents that are not essential to a plot but establish character is exactly what I mean. All the parts that Jackson cut (i.e. the abbreviated exit from the Shire to Rivendale) sacrificed ambience and character development for plot.

You are calling plot "structure"...but it's really the same thing in this case. Bombadil etc. were essential for establishing the characters of the hobbit prior to the introduction of other, more worldly guides. My essential is your distraction.

 

[Yora]

Now I understand how this thread got so long.

 

[The1True]

Maybe. I first read it when I was 10, and I can't say that I identified with Bombadil in that way, but maybe others do.

Yeah, I read it when I was 11. I remember Bombadil absolutely nuking the pace of the story. It was such a jarring break. I remember going a page and then stumbling on a few more pages, and then hitting the fucking poetry at which point I started flipping forward looking for the character arcs I was actually invested in and feeling utterly discouraged by the shear length of the interlude. I think I skimmed through the rest of it. It was awful.

And I friggin LOVE 'Wind in the Willows'! I'm reading it to my kids right now. Those lush, green descriptions. So relaxing and delicious. The 'The Piper at the Gates of Dawn' chapter; #chills.

There's (IMO) something very "direct" (treading lightly here!) about the vibe of Heavy Metal music

I don't see any offence in this comment, but I am concerned that you're experience of the genre may be limited. I hope you're not conflating it with your old punk days. A surprising percent of heavy metal fans are high-functioning individuals due in part to many of its sub-genres' roots in classical music. Talk to some of the people you associate with right here in the forums and you may find that there is, indeed, a heavy metal that's right for you! Symphonic 'Holywood' Power Metal, or Melodic Death Metal with their progressive rhythms and complex, layered melodies for example...

 

[Johann]

When my grandma came into my room, I'd ask "Granny, should I turn down the music?". She'd always go "What music? The only thing I can hear is a loud buzzing noise..."