2e - why you think it sucks, and why you're right

[The1True]

Moving on...

This thread had me digging through my old library. And I'm looking for contenders for the WORST 2e MODULE EVAR.

I'm holding up "Shrine of Bundashatur" here as my clear (un)favourite. I was promised Demons and Chaos. I got a gutless, dickless railroad.

runner up is "Doomgrinder", a seriously dudeweak ending to the solid Lost Tombs trilogy.

 

[The Heretic]

Was talking about Zdawg; the one who shall not be named. You can summon Prince all you like (just remember to inscribe the correct circle of protection in salt and birch bark...)

I know. I was being facetious.

 

[The Heretic]

the WORST 2e MODULE EVAR.

All of them?

 

[Beoric]

I want to nominate "Freedom" as most ironically named - but if I am being honest I have no direct experience with it.

 

[TerribleSorcery]

Terrible Trouble at Tragidore.

 

[The1True]

Terrible Trouble at Tragidore.

Does that even count though? That was an insert in the DM's screen. It's meant to be throwaway fluff. It is pretty awful though. So much so, I'd actually erased the memory of owning the thing...

I want to nominate "Freedom"

I played in a Darksun campaign three years ago. The only times we had any fun was when we were hex-crawling the Obsidian Planes and Dust Sea. The adventures were pretty terrible.

Which makes me think of the Forgotten Realms series (FRE1-3). What utter garbage. Any module based on a novel is going to suck. I mean there's railroads where novice characters can have the illusion of being a part of greater events without stressing out about making the wrong choices and then there are railroads where none of your decisions make any difference whatsoever and your contributions are meaningless. I don't like either, but the latter is the reason why people quit the game forever...

 

[The Heretic]

Does that even count though? That was an insert in the DM's screen. It's meant to be throwaway fluff. It is pretty awful though. So much so, I'd actually erased the memory of owning the thing...

I remember enjoying some of the early wilderness encounters in that module, but gradually lost interest once it got to the Lamia. I was still surprised by the invective it inspired on usenet, however.

I still nominate all 2nd edition modules as being the worst, but if I need to narrow it down I'd probably start with the module series that was set in the Horde setting of the Forgotten Realms. Those were awful.

 

[The1True]

I'd probably start with the module series that was set in the Horde

Dude, they made adventures for that? Were they based on a novel as well?...

 

[The Heretic]

Dude, they made adventures for that? Were they based on a novel as well?...

They used some of the NPCs from the novels but otherwise they were there own things. If I remember correctly it starts with a nice little railroad. You're at the edge of the mountains (for some reason), and several hundred of the horde start riding to intercept you. The only way to escape is to climb the cloud ladder spell that the princess of Khitai casts to rescue you.

Stupid.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

This thread had me digging through my old library. And I'm looking for contenders for the WORST 2e MODULE EVAR.

The first part of the Illithiad trilogy comes to mind. Profanity warning for sensitive young boys etc. etc.

 

[The Heretic]

The first part of the Illithiad trilogy comes to mind. Profanity warning for sensitive young boys etc. etc.

*ahem* What is this about beta-faggoting? Should I sic my nephew and his husband on you? Thpppt.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

*ahem* What is this about beta-faggoting? Should I sic my nephew and his husband on you? Thpppt.

For it to classify as beta-faggotry it would have to be your nephew and your nephew's wife's boyfriend. You are describing regular faggotry, which this module does not contain in sufficient quantities for me to rail against in my thoughtful, courageous and objective review of Mr. Cordell's efforts.

 

[The Heretic]

For it to classify as beta-faggotry it would have to be your nephew and your nephew's wife's boyfriend. You are describing regular faggotry, which this module does not contain in sufficient qualities for me to rail against in my thoughtful, courageous and objective review of Mr. Cordell's efforts.

Aha, I see, it wasn't Dutch enough for that.

I wrote a comment on your review of B9 Castle Caldwell and Beyond. Harry Nuckols. That seems like it must be a pseudonym. I did a search of his name and only found Castle Caldwell. HMMMMMM.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I wrote a comment on your review of B9 Castle Caldwell and Beyond. Harry Nuckols. That seems like it must be a pseudonym. I did a search of his name and only found Castle Caldwell. HMMMMMM.

I saw it! I don't know why but your all caps made me laugh.

What I want to know is why 2e modules were so fucking horrible (excl. B. Cordell). Railroadery? Yes. Boring? Yes. There was also something about 2e Reinassance Faire D&D that made it all feel like a theme park. Lamps with continual light. Magic item shops. Effects explained in terms of crunch and magic spells. It didn't feel shall we say...fantastical?

 

[The1True]

The first part of the Illithiad trilogy comes to mind. Profanity warning for sensitive young boys etc. etc.

I read those reviews and have been looking for the trilogy ever since. The last two adventures sound incredible and I'm a completist... This goes back to my complaint that you keep reviewing adventures that are wildly expensive to collect!

What I want to know is why 2e modules were so fucking horrible (excl. B. Cordell). Railroadery? Yes. Boring? Yes. There was also something about 2e Reinassance Faire D&D that made it all feel like a theme park. Lamps with continual light. Magic item shops. Effects explained in terms of crunch and magic spells. It didn't feel shall we say...fantastical?

Europe does seem to enjoy its fantasy low-down and dirty. Maybe it's because you guys have to live among the ruins, while it's all just a (sanitized) fairy tale for North America and Japan? It seems to me everything you just described is the very definition of fantastical though as opposed to the grimdark, law vs chaos, low-magic universe of say WFRP...
I'm going through these old 2e adventures and trying to recall the sense of repeated disappointment I got, spending my money down at the game store in this era and I think it comes down to less art, more boring backstory and NPC-driven action, and smaller dungeons or dungeons with fewer detailed rooms (like Undermountain). There were exceptions where I was okay with this (as noted in my losing battle over in the Planescape thread).

 

[DangerousPuhson]

It seems to me everything you just described is the very definition of fantastical though as opposed to the grimdark, law vs chaos, low-magic universe of say WFRP...

Right? Continual light spells are not a deal-breaker in my books. Magic shops are not a deal breaker in my books. There are way more important factors to consider that impact the actual fun being had at the table... things like well-written NPCs, unique and weird opponents, and memorable stuations. I've had sessions fall flat because the big boss battle I had ended up being kind of boring, or because the players went somewhere I didn't expect and my improvisation was lackluster, but I've never walked away from a game going "that was a bad session because the village lamps weren't being lit by hand".

This is why I've inadvertently become the OSR iconoclast - taste is 100% subjective, and the OSR has become all about defining the "right" and "wrong" ways to play/design the game based solely on specific tastes.

 

[The Heretic]

I'm going through these old 2e adventures and trying to recall the sense of repeated disappointment I got, spending my money down at the game store in this era and I think it comes down to less art, more boring backstory and NPC-driven action, and smaller dungeons or dungeons with fewer detailed rooms (like Undermountain). There were exceptions where I was okay with this (as noted in my losing battle over in the Planescape thread).

Too much railroading. Overly complex plots. Setting specific. TOO many settings. HARD to port into an existing campaign.

I mean, compare trying to integrate FA1 into a non-FR campaign vs G1. You could put G1 anywhere and do anything with it.

I think I gave up on the modules after the first Horde module and FA1. In the 90's I mainly bought settings fluff to read. For adventures, I'd buy Dungeon magazines. Of course, we know how those are...but at least you get 3-4 adventures to work with. I think I got lucky and hit most of the best issues of Dungeon, so I have fond memories of it.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Europe does seem to enjoy its fantasy low-down and dirty. Maybe it's because you guys have to live among the ruins, while it's all just a (sanitized) fairy tale for North America and Japan? It seems to me everything you just described is the very definition of fantastical though as opposed to the grimdark, law vs chaos, low-magic universe of say WFRP...

Grimdark is one side of the coin, like LOW fantasy, but it doesn't work with High fantasy with a capitol H either which is the other side, with magic item shoppes in the middle. In high fantasy everything is mythic and powerful and mysterious and the problem with streets lit by continual light and magic item shoppes is that it takes something wonderful, magic, and turns it into something mundane and everyday. I would accept it if you include it into some sort of super-magic hyper-civilization where it would only make sense but there's something about having a magic item shoppe in an otherwise mundane medieval village that takes away from the quality of the adventure from me. What if instead of shoppes they were vending machines that you could just put your gemstones in and they would dispense magic+1 swords? I'm cool with visiting some dwarves or wizards and getting yourself a mythril platemail forged if you kill the Dragon that destroyed their old city but there's something about the banality of buying magic items that strips them of wonder.

This is why I've inadvertently become the OSR iconoclast - taste is 100% subjective, and the OSR has become all about defining the "right" and "wrong" ways to play/design the game based solely on specific tastes.

Every movement or design philosophy needs to define what it is and is not, as a requirement. The OSR take or emphasis is partly a response to an edition where magic had largely been reduced to a series of crunch-based upgrades, predefined in terms of how much you would find per level, a part of the very measured progression etc. etc.

The examples you cite are single session factors, not systemic problems. Having a single city with continual light lamps is never going to crash a game on its own, having an entire setting that treats magic like a technological commodity and strips the wonder and imagination from a game can be a contributing factor in why a game fails to entice.

I'm going to be a little more careful with how I argue with you because we keep getting into fights. Let's see if we can keep it civil this time

 

[squeen]

The difficulty with the commonality of magical wonders is, for me, where do you go from there to invoke wonder?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

The difficulty with the commonality of magical wonders is, for me, where do you go from there to invoke wonder?

Is all the wonder of your game derived from contrasting the relative scarcity of the extraordinary?