5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
@Beoric: All that you said applies to 1e too. (delayed initiative, charge, etc.)
I was really only referring to Gandalf's suggested mechanic, but this intrigues me. Does that mean spellcasters should always wait so they begin their spells after all opponents have acted? What other circumstances are likely to arise that give a strategic benefit to waiting, and how often do they arise?
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
What other circumstances are likely to arise that give a strategic benefit to waiting, and how often do they arise?
Welp, if we you want the new-age answer: in 5e you can perform helping actions and hindering actions to give another player Advantage or impose Disadvantage on the enemy. I've seen the Initiative order manipulated to make use of that, especially with regards to big-damage abilities that depend on Advantage like a rogue's Sneak Attack (the Rogue with high DEX starts high in the initiative order, but delays action so people can get into position for the Sneak Attack). Same goes for letting a player take a big hit which will KO the character - the delaying player rushes in to revive them knowing that the other player is likely going down.

Magic is definitely a driver for delayed actions. Counterspell is a thing. The party might all delay their actions until after the Wizard castes Haste. One guy can make an opponent weak to a type of damage so the delayed spellcaster can then attack with magic of that damage type. Sometimes you don't want to waste a huge fireball on a creature if your party can kill it first conventionally. Etc.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I was really only referring to Gandalf's suggested mechanic, but this intrigues me. Does that mean spellcasters should always wait so they begin their spells after all opponents have acted? What other circumstances are likely to arise that give a strategic benefit to waiting, and how often do they arise?
Having the initiative is not a requirement to act as soon as you can. If a swordsman had the initiative to strike, they can simply delay their action (until there is no time left in the round to complete a spell started after a strike, if necessary) until striking would spoil a spell.

There's no way for a caster to "win" by losing initiative. [edit - if fighting an intelligent opponent. I'd have unintelligent monsters typically strike at the first opportunity, as is their nature]
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
<troll>
All you noobs are pronouncing Gandalf wrong! The f at the end is supposed to be pronounced like a v, according to Tolkien in the Silmarillion. Get it right!
</troll>
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
  1. This is can be true in OD&D/AD&D, but mostly at higher levels. The "segments" system for breaking down a round helps with spell-casting because they can be an A-bomb in an encounter...and managing "fast"/multiple attacks.
  2. The AD&D initiative system plays very smooth and quick. I have no complaints.
  • The back and forth that went on during last night's game between two fairly equally matched opponents (7th-level thief transformed by a quasi-cursed ring of swimming into a fish-man) and giant octopus:
Thief (who lost initiative by a point on the d6): I get to go first anyways because of my high dex!
DM (me): That's only for missile weapons.
Thief: I'm using the harpoon wrist-crossbows I found in the submerged parts of the Earth Temple.
DM (me): Ok, you get a shot off before it can try to grab you...

easy peasy lemon squeezy. The "hard part" is learning the system --- not using it. Again, probably not the system you want to start with, but if you want to spice up your cooking...it adds slight nuances, yet maintains over-all game-balance in an elegant and unencumbering way.
Yeah, the part of AD&D 1e initiative I like is the stuff that uses player choice to shift around where PCs act in initiative. The parts I like less are the detailed book-keeping that sometimes results. My personal preference when running retro D&D-style games (usually using either S&W Complete or my own Into the Depths homebrew system) is for a relatively simple random component - 1d6 per side, higher goes first, even ties go to PCs, odd ties to monsters - with four phases in the round: missiles, movement, melee / items, and spells. Within each phase, characters from the side with the higher die roll act first. I find the phases provide a good way to emphasise player choice in shifting their initiative within the round, while using comparisons of values or phases rather than calculations to keep things moving rapidly.

This is pretty obviously an adaptation of B/X initiative, but I think it hits the sweet spot for what I'm looking for more than AD&D's system does.
 

gandalf_scion

*eyeroll*
Speaking of segments, and related 1e esoterica, I find one simple house rule that inflicts only cosmetic changes helps skeptics get over their objections to 1e time and distance scales. The fact that Gary spent so much ink trying to justify the one minute round reveals that it bothered a lot of people. Along with that, the six-second segment was also a bit long. So here's the time and distance house rule.

When playing 1e, cut the actual duration of all units of game time in half without changing any rules expressed in game time. Therefore, a turn is five minutes, a round 30 seconds, and a segment but three seconds. Ergo, there's only half as much real time per unit of game time and that makes 1e time and distance more plausible. You go from moving 120 feet per minute (molasses) to 120 feet (yards outdoors) in 30 seconds, a bit slow, but closer to reasonable. Meanwhile, spells with a duration of X rounds still last X rounds.

I'm convinced the one minute round was a legacy of Gary's time in wargaming where that time scale makes sense to account for command and control issues involved when leading scores of men opposed to the small parties that actually evolved in RPGs.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
If a swordsman had the initiative to strike, they can simply delay their action (until there is no time left in the round to complete a spell started after a strike, if necessary) until striking would spoil a spell.
Ok, that is a decent example. Would there be tactical reason to delay if not fighting a spellcaster?

[edit - if fighting an intelligent opponent. I'd have unintelligent monsters typically strike at the first opportunity, as is their nature]
Low intelligence <> lack of tactical acumen. Animals can exhibit quite disciplined tactics when they fight.

Speaking of segments, and related 1e esoterica, I find one simple house rule that inflicts only cosmetic changes helps skeptics get over their objections to 1e time and distance scales. The fact that Gary spent so much ink trying to justify the one minute round reveals that it bothered a lot of people. Along with that, the six-second segment was also a bit long. So here's the time and distance house rule.

When playing 1e, cut the actual duration of all units of game time in half without changing any rules expressed in game time. Therefore, a turn is five minutes, a round 30 seconds, and a segment but three seconds. Ergo, there's only half as much real time per unit of game time and that makes 1e time and distance more plausible. You go from moving 120 feet per minute (molasses) to 120 feet (yards outdoors) in 30 seconds, a bit slow, but closer to reasonable. Meanwhile, spells with a duration of X rounds still last X rounds.

I'm convinced the one minute round was a legacy of Gary's time in wargaming where that time scale makes sense to account for command and control issues involved when leading scores of men opposed to the small parties that actually evolved in RPGs.
I think you should be able to choose your risk/speed. If you model carefully probing the area ahead of you with a pole, and then taking a single step (2.5') before starting again, you can actually come up with speeds slower than 60'/minute or 6'/segment (the speed if someone is wearing plate). Especially if you are trying not to make a lot of noise tapping on the ground with the pole. But moving with that much caution should give you a high probability of locating traps, not a measly 2 in 6 (or whatever you use). Moving faster should be riskier, but an option. If you want to rush the probes, you get a lower chance of detecting things, or you make more noise, or both. If you want to walk at normal speed and not probe at all, good luck to you.

Compared to probing with a pole, pacing off distances for mapping takes no time at all. A prudent party probably has two people side by side probing (in a 10' hallway), one on either side checking for secret doors, and one person mapping. It should go slower with fewer people probing. Note some of these people won't have a weapon in their hands.

Armor should affect the upper limit, but have nothing to do with the lower limit.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Ok, that is a decent example. Would there be tactical reason to delay if not fighting a spellcaster?
To draw broadly on the same principle, the classic movie situation where someone "gets the drop on someone" - "Stop or I'll shoot", or has a knife to their throat. The "stop or I'll shoot" is to me an example where that party has the initiative but doesn't make an attack roll. They will be able to attack first automatically though if the target doesn't comply. The 2nd example I'd say an attack roll has happened (along with likely other rolls to be in this position, such as surprise, etc.) but the person holding the knife isn't apply the damage which is suspended. But they could choose to apply it at any time, and if the damage isn't sufficient to kill that would be narrated as the target somehow slipping out of their grasp with only a scratch
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
To draw broadly on the same principle, the classic movie situation where someone "gets the drop on someone" - "Stop or I'll shoot", or has a knife to their throat. The "stop or I'll shoot" is to me an example where that party has the initiative but doesn't make an attack roll. They will be able to attack first automatically though if the target doesn't comply. The 2nd example I'd say an attack roll has happened (along with likely other rolls to be in this position, such as surprise, etc.) but the person holding the knife isn't apply the damage which is suspended. But they could choose to apply it at any time, and if the damage isn't sufficient to kill that would be narrated as the target somehow slipping out of their grasp with only a scratch
See, I feel like that is more of a ruling regarding what can be done as part of an action. And I'm not sure I agree with the rulings. If you hesitate, you run the risk of losing your prey. Sure, you should have some advantage if you already have the target in your sights, or stop with a knife at someone's throat. But when you pause to await an action from someone, you run the risk of that action not being what you expect, or happening faster than you expect, or you initially misinterpreting the action. If the runner drops and rolls, he is no longer in your sights. If the person with a knife grabs your arm, success at the throat cutting is no longer assured; if he twists your knife is no longer quite so advantageously positioned. (The classic movie knife-at-throat is actually a grapple, holding the victim's head, arms and body in a position where they cannot resist. That is a whole different set of rules.) I feel like pausing is effectively the end of the action.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
If the runner drops and rolls, he is no longer in your sights. If the person with a knife grabs your arm, success at the throat cutting is no longer assured; if he twists your knife is no longer quite so advantageously positioned.
All of those things are what taking 1d4 hit points of damage means when you have 50 hit points (or d6 damage with a bowshot).

If someone is grappled and helpless, hit points (and initiative/delays) don't apply. You just kill them with your knife. If you have 50 hit points and someone says "stop or I'll shoot" - there's basically no way their attack will kill you; you lose some je ne sais quoi (i.e., hit points) avoiding it, and now you have 50-1d6 hit points remaining (presuming their shot "hit").

But for the play mechanic, yeah, that guy will get his chance to burn off 1d6 of your hit points before you can get away losing none of them.
 

Two orcs

Officially better than you, according to PoN
I run my game with phases and no initative, works fine and it means dramatic mutual kills are always on the table. The missile phase is in between declaring and casting a spell, giving thrown weapons like hand axes a reason for being.

If each character has a separate initiative getting everyone to attack at once is a strong benefit of waiting, then you can make sure to attack the enemy while their battle line is staggered to get a local numerical advantage. Another benefit is if there is a pike-standoff, the enemy is waiting to charge you with polearms but you have a line of polearms yourself, in that case if you can delay further than them they might have to do a bad charge or forgo their action completely (I assume most iniative systems allow delaying to your negative initative score).
 
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gandalf_scion

*eyeroll*
This ongoing discussion of infinite possibilities is exactly why we need a random or bid element to initiative. Yes, everything from 1e to 5e allows characters to sometimes select their place in the strike order when using certain cardinal actions: bracing for a charge, firing missiles at someone closing, etc. That makes sense. But for all the other countless possibilities that amount to some variation of IF x THEN y bidding or randomness is a "fair" solution.

PCs can advocate for their characters better than the DM can advocate for NPCs, if for no other reason than mental overload while the DM struggles to manage several personalities while each PC has only one. Under those circumstances, it's grossly unfair to the NPCs to allow a bunch of on-the-fly rulings that will trend over time to favor the PCs - who have better advocacy. And, these subjective rulings often overlook the "heat of battle." Can the PC, while breathing heavily, fearing for his/her life, and struggling to see through the visor over their eyes, really make such precise judgements about strike order? Under certain cardinal circumstances, yes. But for all those other IF THEN cases probably not.
 

gandalf_scion

*eyeroll*
I run my game with phases and no initative, works fine and it means dramatic mutual kills are always on the table. The missile phase is in between declaring and casting a spell, giving thrown weapons like hand axes a reason for being.

If each character has a separate initiative getting everyone to attack at once is a strong benefit of waiting, then you can make sure to attack the enemy while their battle line is staggered to get a local numerical advantage. Another benefit is if there is a pike-standoff, the enemy is waiting to charge you with polearms but you have a line of polearms yourself, in that case if you can delay further than them they might have to do a bad charge or forgo their action completely (I assume most iniative systems allow delaying to your negative initative score).
I like these games/situations where actual tactics, such as a pike-standoff, come into play. More than initiative, the issue is tactics; that includes weapon choice. One answer to this dilemma, as demonstrated by the Romans, is javelins. Another, as demonstrated by the Vikings, is the thrown axe. The two-handed sword or halberd are yet more answers; late state medieval mercenaries used those tools to actually hack opposing pikes to bits - the medieval version of cutting through wire.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
I have no conceptual issue with a bidding system, I just think it should be tied as closely as possible to character choices. As an off the top of my head example, if you had a pool of bonus points which you could split between bonus to initiative roll (or a flat bid with no random element) and bonus to attack, to represent the character choosing between trying to go first at the expense of accuracy or vice versa, IMO that makes for a better mechanic.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
@DangerousPuhson : sorry it's taking me me so long to address your 1e "beat down". Struggling to find time in my schedule at the moment...but I haven't forgotten.
Ah, it won't end. Even if you rebut every single point I've brought up, I'd just chime back in with the other 95% of the game's issues. Neither side will do anything beyond ("yes it is" + wall of text) vs. ("no it isn't" + wall of text), and then things will fizzle out, like they always do.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Ah, it won't end. Even if you rebut every single point I've brought up, I'd just chime back in with the other 95% of the game's issues. Neither side will do anything beyond ("yes it is" + wall of text) vs. ("no it isn't" + wall of text), and then things will fizzle out, like they always do.
Congratulations Puhson, you have figured out the internet! Here, have a bag of ketchup flavored potato chips.
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
This thread generates a lot of interesting observations, keep it up.

I've decided to put my money where my mouth is - I've dusted off the old AD&D PHB to pull some specific examples of the game being broken and/or antiquated. Let's start from the top!
Might I have...this dance?

I daresay most of these points are trivial to address but I would be skipping a much more important point that must be made first. It should be easy for you to outline your preference for 5e over 1e in a short list of comprehensive bullet points so we can understand what your parameters are before we wade into a laundry list of specific rules that you (for us) arbitrarily dislike. In short; if you cannot tell us why you like one game over another in short and succinct fashion the argument is going to get mired in an endless and ever-shifting morass of nebulous positions.

With the current list of specific points your argument against 1e is easier to address because you have outlined your accusation more specifically. These rules are either 'broken' (i.e. detrimental to game-balance or disruptive of the game as it is meant to be played) or 'antiquated' (superceded by more accurate, more efficient systems).

Rolled mediocre attributes? Cool, half the classes can't be played by you now! No paladins, monks, rangers, assassins, illusionists, druids... half the game content locked behind a random dice roll!
You assume standard ability score generation, not one of the half-dozen alternate methods of ability score generation but that is acceptable. You also ignore 1e's adminition that it is 'usually essential to the character's survival to be exceptional (with a rating of 15 or above)' (PHB p.9) so this mediocre scenario is much less likely then you make it out to be.

The whole point of these classes is that they are meant to be fairly rare, professions for exceptional men, and the ability requirement rules enforce this rarity so the GM doesn't have to step in when the party is composed entirely of paladins and gnome illusionist, much less when the GM conceives of a nation where all fighting men are paladins. They are meant to enforce a sort of fantasy realism for both player and GM. The very idea of the paladin is one of exceptionalism, and with good reason. A holy warrior imbued with supernatural gifts by the forces of good should be much rarer then a fighting man under the assumptions the fantasy system is based on. Contrast this with 5e, where no rules-based argument may be formulated for the frequency of Fighters over Paladins, Barbarians over Monks etc. etc.

Strength seems pretty straight forward as a concept, right? Nope! Heavy door? Open Door on X roll when Strength is Y . Oh, but it's a "gate" not a "door"? Better look at the "Lift Gates" percentage instead. Yeah, all those situation-specific skill caveats are never going to get annoying. Don't even get me started on Strength scores higher than 18 - that 18/XX shit is totally not vestigial and useless (/sarcasm).
It is curious, in your line of argumentation, everything, even seemingly complex things, seem so very straightforward or otherwise entirely arbitrary. Perhaps it is because of your dizzying intellect, piercing through mists of obfuscation? In general I will wholly admit a straightforward d20 + ability score mod versus a DC is more intuitive, and is also the reason I prefer Basic DnD. In defence of AD&D; These percentages are so wildly different because the chance of success should realistically be wildly disproportionate depending on one's strength score, and the increase in success chance is not a linear +5% with each two points of Strength as in 5e, but follows a more realistic bell curve distribution (i.e. the same door is not 25% more likely to be broken open by a man with 20 str then a man with 10 str). The exceptional strength, while certainly unwieldy compared to the simple model of 5e and basic, is designed along similar lines. The idea of the system is to simulate, for fighters, characters of exceptional strength at the edge of the bell-curve without relegating them to the domain of superhuman ability (hill giant strength).

Hey, gender-based stat restrictions - Female characters have a maximum Strength score! Yeah, sexism isn't an antiquated part of the game at all...
First of all, in order for it to be sexist it has to be based on prejudice, not reality, no matter what your college professors tell you. Female upper body strength is statistically much lower. Since most adventurers were considered exceptional individuals anyway, this rule was later dropped, probably with good reason. I'll fully agree its antiquated because it doesn't reflect actual play

Thief skills. You know what's cool? Not having completely arbitrary percentages to do different thief actions. Why does a DEX 17 thief have a +10% chance to open locks but a +0% chance of locating/removing traps? Because of reasons!
Again, just because you cannot find a pattern does not mean no such logic exists. Clearly removing traps is considered a more complex task and therefore only 18 dex gives +5%, while it also gives a +10% to lock picking. Are you starting to see a pattern? Can you infer what bonus 19 dex would give? It is almost as if there were some sort of...distribution, some sort of...curve? that is being modelled for some reason. You can say its less streamlined or harder to use but it is more realistic. That's the central tradeoff that is being considered.

Here's a fun little line tucked well away on page 10: "Change in intelligence: If Intelligence goes up or down for any reason and such change is relatively permanent, the magic-user must check again as explained above for know spells by level group". Better hope you remembered a throwaway line at character creation, otherwise you're cheating whenever your INT changes.
Argument against the layout, not the substance. You can argue that 1e is poorly laid out, I think few will disagree with you.

Races and classes don't mix! Dwarf magic user? Nope! Can't exist! The only monks are Human, because that makes sense... those deeply spiritual elves would never become monks! Halfling assassin? Nope, no tiny ninja hiding in a giant cake to jump out and murder the corrupted Duke at his 60th birthday party allowed! Halflings can be fighters, and halflings can be thieves, but a halfling thief that can also fight people? NEVER! Don't you just love arbitrary restriction in your free-form sandbox games? Nothing is more fun than hamstringing player options!
Where do you think halflings and dwarves come from DP? Have you heard of something called an Archetype? Do you think a race of stone age bird people living on mountain crags and worshipping the spirits of their ancestors should have the equivalent of a christian crusader class? Your demand for no restrictions actually makes the game much more arbitrary and races and classes less meaningful.

Even more caveats! There's a whole table of level limitations based on class and race. Did you know Elf fighters with less than 17 STR are limited to 5th level? Nothing like halting character progression dead because of a single low dice roll you made twenty sessions ago way back at the start of the game.
Again, restrictions meant to simulate a certain fantasy milieu and its underlying assumptions. One might argue it explains why all the greatest practitioners in the world are not held by longer-lived demi-humans. You also omit the possibility of multi-classing for demi-humans, which increases this longevity well into the higher reaches of a DnD campaign. A molehill is turned into a mountain range.

Here's a legit line from the PHB: "However this nature gives them a bonus with regard to their saving throws against attacks made by magic wands, staves, rods and spells. This bonus is +1 for every 3 1/2 points of Constitution ability"... yeah, that's way more straightforward than "Advantage on saves against magic". Also wands/staves/rods having its own category of saving throw is really dumb.
Do you understand there is always a trade-off between usability and complexity/realism? All your argumentation is based on simplicity and ease of use, which is fine, but then you don't get to complain when people write you off as a filthy casual or call your edition a baby's edition right? Why is a separate category for magical devices versus the personalized spellcasting done by spellcasters a problem? You can use different saving throw progressions to fine-tune the effectiveness of some classes versus enemy spellcasters in this fashion. Under the current ruleset the resistance is explicitly tied to a Dwarf's natural hardiness, under Advantage this is A) not the case and B) is much more powerful.

Shit I'm only on page 15 of the PHB... this is too much. I'd go on, but then I'd become like squeen and his infamous walls-of-text ("gaze not into the abyss", and so on). I think I've belabored my point enough, but I've got my trusty copy at hand if anyone wants more.
If this feels tiresome it is only because the counter-argument has been repeated to you so often one would think it is imprinted on your optic nerve by now. AD&D has a much firmer idea of the type of fantasy it is trying to be (poorly articulated though it may be) and its rules reflect that at the cost of simplicity.
 
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PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
I discovered a hairline fracture in the circle of powdered silver around my laptop.

Classes restricted to alignment. Rangers can only be good. Why? Because I guess it takes a strong moral compass to survive alone in the woods... you know, among all those moral animals. Henchmen for some classes have to be a specific alignment too. motive, story, party resources - that stuff is inconsequential. Extra manpower is needed to defeat this evil but Neutral Good isn't Lawful enough to come along.
You argue based on a vague and diluted concept of what a Ranger is. Rangers in AD&D are explicitly based on Aragorn from Lord of the Rings (just check Appendix N). Men who have sworn an oath to protect civilization while never being part of it. Far more akin to knights then simple hunters. Men wedded to a sacred calling will take only like-minded fellows, that's not super hard to defend right?

Alignment languages. How...wha-..I can't wrap my head around what the hell Lawful Neutral is supposed to sound like ("If I don't survive, tell my wife 'hello'"? Something like that?). Just dumb... an archaic vestige of the days when alignment was important for no reason.
I agree with you that alignment languages are mostly shit, but the idea is not THAT inconceivable. If there can be creatures of absolute alignment, that means that that alignment represents a real cosmic force, why can't that force have a unique tongue?

Finally found the Bard class - at the very back of the book, well away from the other classes. OK, maybe this is more of an indictment of Gary's technical writing skills and shitty book layout.
But the bard class is a rare sort of proto-prestige class, so its in an Appendix since it is an exception. You can do much much better then this.

Oh boy, rules about how paladins can't own anything. That was fun, eh? Ah wait, there's a bunch of caveats too! They can own (but not exceed ownership of) 1 suit armor, 1 shield, 4 weapons, 4 other magic items. What happens if a paladin with 4 weapons picks up a club he finds on the ground? Well, Jesus compels him to drop it, obviously.
Another case where Appendix N would have saved you. The paladin is a holy warrior, directly from Three Hearts Three Lions by Poul Anderson, but obviously based on tales of historic chivalry or the knights templar. Since those warriors historically swore vows of poverty this rule is meant to restrict their power while upholding some of their flavor. Contrast 5e, where a paladin is a vague concept of a holy warrior with magic powers, much less sophisticated and therefore less meaningful. But why stop where, why not complain a 5e barbarian only gains his Con bonus to armor class when he is not wearing armor?

Hmm, rules for a paladin's "holy sword". Oh, it's just a bunch of pointlessly tacked-on abilities whenever a paladin has a sword designated as "holy" by whatever metric one measures such things. Circle of power 1" (sic - 1 inch?) in diameter, and can dispel magic. Maybe just make that shit part of the sword instead of a class bonus ability for the sake of simplicity? No? Ok... you're the expert after all Gary.
Clearly the ability is part of a unique fusion of Paladin and weapon, not merely an attribute of the weapon in question. I can point you again to Three Hearts & Three Lions for precedent, although I will admit the Holy Avenger effectively obviates the need for this rule.

Chances to track as the Ranger - people complain 3e had too much math, then they employ systems that add +2% to chances of success. Ugh, these minutiae are endless and pointless.
I feel your arguments can be relegated to general categories. This is category 1: Simpler is better. Which can be refuted with counter 1: But this is more realistic/complex.

Multiattacks at the mid-level are 3 attacks every 2 rounds. Extra layer of things to keep track of. As a DM, keeping my players adherent to this rule will be annoying as shit. "John, did you use two attacks or one attack two rounds ago?"; "I don't remember".
That only applies if you have combat turns that last longer then 20 minutes, which is common with 5e because of all the abilities and options and whatnot. A Basic combat turn can be completed in 5 minutes. Are your players so dull they cannot remember their actions a round ago?

Multi-classing is for non-humans. Dual-classing is for only Humans. Why? Because reasons.
DP category 2: I have not read Appendix N/Archetypes are not a thing so I don't get this and therefore stupid. Counter 2: So read Appendix N/a book.

A table for Minimum Fees for Assassination. It's nice that something like setting your own contract prices and tense negotiation has been taken right off the table, otherwise we might be having fun playing an Assassin character. No Assassin could ever work for a discount, a favor, or any other reason - that sort of dynamic character-driven story doesn't belong in this game.
PHB page .29; "Typical fees for assassination are..." --> table. You are basing this on a deliberately rigid interpretation of the rules to defend your position. Also even if your interpretation were correct, for which there is no evidence, one could argue Guild pricing.

While we're looking at adding mechanics to replace roleplaying, let's also look at Loyalty Base stats on the Charisma table for NPC followers. Roleplaying NPC loyalty? Building bonds through shared experience and dialogue? Nah, friendship/respect/pay means nothing if you can't track loyalty with some hard, concrete, situation-independent number system.
Is there no clause for henchman treatment? Do you not think this system would help you keep track of large amounts of npc henchman, barring other factors?

It's like I have to do everything myself. Go back and formulate your argument better.

Surprise in 5e: Perception Skill check to determine if surprised. Roll initiative. Surprised characters/creatures cannot act on the first round of combat.
Surprise in AD&D: Calculate Surprise Dice Difference to determine number of Lost Segments. Determine which of either party is surprised through contested 6-sided die roll using a baseline value of 2-in-6 and applying esoteric modifiers. Check DEX table for Reaction/Attacking adjustment bonus. Run through segments making partial actions, probably forgetting to apply the DEX bonuses that exist for this very specific situation. Then roll initiative.
Category 1. Reply 1. You are adding extra steps to make the difference seem larger then it is. But I'll totally say I prefer Basic DnD simple initiative or even 5e above AD&D.

Shields give you an armor bonus... up to a certain amount of attacks per round, which is annoying. Normal shields apply an AC bonus only twice per melee round, so if you've got a shield, you'd better remember that this rule exists and apply it's bonuses sequentially in combat, otherwise you're a cheater. There's nothing like nitpicking the use of a single AC point in a busy combat situation to really slow the pace!
Its only a single point of AC if the shield is not enchanted. See also category 1 reply 1. Why do they even have flanking in 5e? I cant keep track of that its annoying. Why all the different damage dice? They should just have one dice I can't be bothered to look up weapon types its annoying.

Descending Armor Class. 'Nuff said.
Totally agree less transparent then it could be.

Fire Rate and Armor Class Adjustments scores to track for ranged and thrown weapons. You know what's fun about having to refer to a book table every time you attack a different target or somebody moves around? Nothing, that's what.
But there is something added see. You don't have to repeat the same argument every time, you have to prove the SAME AMOUNT OF COMPLEXITY can be achieved in a simpler fashion in a later addition in order to prove your point. Also I can use the same argument against variable weapon damage, monster statts, feats, spells etc. etc.
 

Grützi

Should be playing D&D instead
PrinceofNothing said:
This thread generates a lot of interesting observations, keep it up.
With this I can fully agree.
That's why I read this thread with great interest though i don't actively participate ...

(Hi squeen :) )

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PrinceofNothing said:
But why stop where, why not complain a 5e barbarian only gains his Con bonus to armor class when he is not wearing armor?
This is easy Prince, my friend.
A Barbarian wearing no armor exposes more skin, which means more women can see his chiseled features and body. So he subconsciously flexes his muscles all the time to appear more muscular and barbaric.
Thus through the constant use of his muscles, his stamina greatly increases and any area one could hit is harder to damage because of his tense muscles --> con-mod to AC.
As proof I offer this two random barbarian pictures I just pulled from google:
barbarian_armor_by_monsterinkstudio_dc76sa4-fullview.jpg
Look at the fella ... nicely protected by armor and completely relaxed. Notice the open hand, the laid back and open posture.

1e7ff8988b2a0d5c0012fe48011cf873.jpg
now look at that dude. Fist clenched, intense stare, his exposed breast ready to take any hit ...

I rest my case :p
 
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