5e - why you think it sucks, and why you're wrong

[Beoric]

Sure, but baby-stealing goblins-as-fey is a European trope that predates European colonialism and doesn't necessarily invoke racist iconography (speculation about the Picts aside).

 

[squeen]

Sure, but baby-stealing goblins-as-fey is a European trope that predates European colonialism and doesn't necessarily invoke racist iconography

And that's bad if you want to play D&D tonight?

 

[Beoric]

No, not at all, that's my point. That scenario doesn't adopt the problematic structure or iconography that is baked into the default game.

 

[Malrex]

I think this a particularly good point. Bryce makes it too---saying that the original D&D game had a more "winning" or "game-y" mentality. It took me a long time to connect what he was saying with the notion of being OK with D&D as a game rather than an immersive experience (because I never played it in the post 1e way). Also, hearkens back to my old-saw (argument with Malrex) about character over fetish-ization.

It's more than just character over fetish-ization though Squeen. Do you want a DM who just wants to play a game (hence, what's the point of evocative writing and why not just break out a board game instead)? Or do you want a DM who runs the game in a way that immerses and enhances your imagination where you build a story/movie together as you play a game?

Or...do you like to eat french fries? Or do you like french fries with ketchup?

And it wasn't an argument....it was a discussion.

 

[squeen]

Don't get me wrong. Immersion occurs. But logruspattern's point was that happens anyways during play --- without explicit (lame/forced) game mechanics trying to emphasize it (e.g. in character build).

 

[Malrex]

Don't get me wrong. Immersion occurs. But logruspattern's point was that happens anyways during play --- without explicit (lame/forced) game mechanics trying to emphasize it (e.g. in character build).

My argument is DMs can immerse themselves with the adventure and material. Players get to immerse themselves into...a game that they didnt set up. Why take a method of immersion away from players? Damn selfish DMs....

 

[squeen]

Players get to immerse themselves into...a game that they didnt set up. Why take a method of immersion away from players? Damn selfish DMs....

I know, you love this down-time fun for players. But that's where it should stay---off-camera, in the player's head. They shouldn't try to import that goofy narcissistic stuff into the world.

Their fun is being center-stage---the prime movers in the world. It's the game they didn't set-up---but it is the game they made happen. They are the actors...the DM only get gets to do the props (unless he's a Quantum Ogre loving foo'). They act. He reacts. Trying to give them more, when they already have nearly everything...that's the crime.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

I took the burden of administrating the Lord Bryce's demesne under pain of death and the ONE MONTH I blow it off...

I actually have to make my first judgement call here. Considering what usually happens to forums when people of dissenting opinions discuss hot-button issues and considering the growing political divide in the United States and in Europe and the diverse spectra of the userbase I hereby pronounce that tenfootpole.org forum is not the place for deeply engaged political or politically tinted discussions about D&D. There are several other forums and media, including twitter, where you can freely discuss said viewpoints. It is my contention that all of these tend to be heavily politically biased because these topics cause a lot of conflict, and that conflict drives people away.

Logruspattern, your post about 5e was, for the most part, perfectly respectable and about the content and therefore I see no reason remove or edit it. I suggest you and by extension Beoric drop your exposition on the political interpretation of D&D and move on to mechanics related issues. If anyone has questions regarding this decision or wishes to state objections you are welcome to DM me.

Carry on gentlemen.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Some of the Appendix N stuff is pretty bad, but I wouldn't want to discuss it here either. If PoN is online he will probably poke that bear and it could get ugly.

Careful where you point that thing, I wouldn't want to hurt you.

On the internet.

 

[The1True]

This has been a surprisingly civilized and enlightening discussion gentlemen (gentlefolk?), thank you.

 

[Beoric]

I took the burden of administrating the Lord Bryce's demesne under pain of death and the ONE MONTH I blow it off...

I actually have to make my first judgement call here. Considering what usually happens to forums when people of dissenting opinions discuss hot-button issues and considering the growing political divide in the United States and in Europe and the diverse spectra of the userbase I hereby pronounce that tenfootpole.org forum is not the place for deeply engaged political or politically tinted discussions about D&D. There are several other forums and media, including twitter, where you can freely discuss said viewpoints. It is my contention that all of these tend to be heavily politically biased because these topics cause a lot of conflict, and that conflict drives people away.

Logruspattern, your post about 5e was, for the most part, perfectly respectable and about the content and therefore I see no reason remove or edit it. I suggest you and by extension Beoric drop your exposition on the political interpretation of D&D and move on to mechanics related issues. If anyone has questions regarding this decision or wishes to state objections you are welcome to DM me.

Carry on gentlemen.

I can respect that.

Addressing these issues is a big part of my job, so if anyone wants to have a civil discussion about any of these issues please reach out by PM (when I first read PoN's post I though he wanted us to persuade him by running a game for him). [Moderator Edit: I said not here]

 

[Malrex]

This has been a surprisingly civilized and enlightening discussion gentlemen (gentlefolk?), thank you.

Honestly...wouldnt of pushed for opinions if I didnt think it would. Cool group all around.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Addressing these issues is a big part of my job, so if anyone wants to have a civil discussion about any of these issues please reach out by PM (when I first read PoN's post I though he wanted us to persuade him by running a game for him). [Edit: I said not here]

(I think the results of such a game would be entertaining but I'm a very bad candidate for re-education).

For clarification, in order for it to achieve its stated goal of preventing discussion of hot-bed political topics the no-politics edict must logically extend to attempts to entice community members into discussions of just these issues via DM (Edit: I Mean PM), be it organized or otherwise. I must ask that you do not encourage any further discussion of said topics within the confines of this website.

 

[squeen]

@PrinceofNothing : You keep writing DM, for I assume Direct Message --- we all keep getting Dungeon Master.

Beoric's reply indicated PM for Private Message --- which is what we typical say in the US.

He was also pointing out the confusion when he said that he thought you wanted him to run you through an "educational" adventure.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Beoric's reply indicated PM for Private Message --- which is what we typical say in the US.

He was also pointing out the confusion when he said that he thought you wanted him to run you through an "educational" adventure.

It's okay, English is my second language. I am kind of a dummy.

 

[The Heretic]

It's okay, English is my second language. I am kind of a dummy.

We noticed.

<darnit heretic, stop calling people dummies!>

 

[PrinceofNothing]

We noticed.

<darnit heretic, stop calling people dummies!>

Would you be willing to run an adventure for me where you teach me how to speak english (and feel human emotion?).

 

[The Heretic]

Would you be willing to run an adventure for me where you teach me how to speak english (and feel human emotion?).

I've always wanted to do impossible things.

The prisoner who now stands before you
Was caught red-handed showing feelings
Showing feelings of an almost human nature
This will not do

 

[squeen]

Trent's post on 5e mods to make it feel more 1e.

 

[Beoric]

Trent's post on 5e mods to make it feel more 1e.

Even from my limited experience with 5e, I think it is a bit misguided. My comment on his blog, assuming it gets accepted:

Ok, I don’t have a ton of experience with 5e, but even I can see that this is has a couple of problems.

I mean, the changes to map it to 1e’s implied setting are fine, although I think you should probably try to understand the impact of weapon properties on the game before you start adding new ones.

But I think your changes to the XP system are a mistake. As I understand it, the reason XP progression isn’t smooth is because it takes more XPs to get to levels that have more goodies. While it would be fine to slow level progression, I feel like the new XP targets should be proportionate to the original 5e XP targets. And since at the same time you are making changes to the number/kinds of goodies classes get, that just means you are turning two knobs at once in different directions without really understanding what either knob does.

I also think tinkering with the way spells work without reading their writeups is a huge mistake. Spell effects can vary wildly between editions, and a lot of them may already be nerfed from what you know. And spell damage is built into the math of the game, including different HP totals for monsters, you really shouldn’t mess with that until you have some experience with the system. And if the spells aren’t as powerful AND you get rid of cantrips (which are essentially the equivalent of throwing a dart) I don’t really know what you are going to end up with.

But I think the biggest problem is that most of your changes are minutia that don’t address the fundamental differences. You haven’t even talked about XP=GP, for example. It would be very easy to divide 5e combat expertise by (for example) 5, award treasure as though it was AD&D, and award XPs for treasure as though it was AD&D. That fundamentally changes the reward system of the game and drives a certain kind of play.

You could also enforce downtime by importing something similar to AD&D training rules, which eats up all that cash. You then don’t have to get rid of feats, you just have to make it necessary to find someone able to each the feat (which may be an adventure in itself).

Followers for high level characters can probably be bolted onto the existing system. Note if you take the time to understand monster creation and how swarms work you can probably cobble those followers into units and have a rudimentary mass combat system.

If you want to make it play like 1e you have to not only understand how 1e mechanics address particular situations to create a certain feel, but you also have to understand which 5e mechanics address those same situations, and how those existing mechanics impact the feel of the game. Sometimes it is just a matter of turning the dial on the existing mechanics.

Take traps, for instance. I don’t think 5e traps are as lethal, and I think they are easier to find and disable. You can make this feel more like 1e by making the traps more lethal, and harder to find and disable, using the existing mechanics. And because they are harder to find, there is incentive for players to try to find them narratively instead of relying on skills.

Anyway, in general I think you would be better served to play the edition A LOT and really get to know its mechanics before you start trying to change it. Because otherwise your changes might not work as you expect, and then you end up writing off the edition, whereas if you understood it better you might be able to cobble together something you actually like.

Because I would rather talk to you guys than argue with Venger.

EDIT: Turns out I don't want to argue with Trent either.