Best laid out non-dungeon module?

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
think it was one of the Alexanderian posts on railroad plots that Beoric or TS said had "changed they way they played" but felt like Mom and Apple Pie talk.
Wasn't me. Courtney had a much bigger influence on my game, I mostly find The Alexandrian too crunchy (and a bit pretentious), although I think "prep situations not plots" is a nice explanation of good technique.

I don't have much carousing going on in my game, so this isn't an issue that comes up in my game. I'm mostly working from theory and reacting to what I have heard other people say about their games, and my experience many years ago with DMs insisting on playing out the evening of carousing in painful detail, which was (depending on the activity) varyingly boring, embarrassing and creepy until somebody got in a fight.

My starting point is that (a) pretending to party is significantly interesting than partying, and therefore should be summarized rather than played, and (b) consequences should result from and be related to player choices, and the specific events leading to consequences should be played when they are interesting. The trend toward carousing tables addresses (a) but ignores (b), which is why I argue against them, at least unless you work in some player choice.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
This is where you lose me.
Picture like this: you have a list of interesting city scenes/scenarios/encounters/whatever, and they are linked in a flowchart whose movement is based on the results of saving throws/skill checks (or choices, really, if you're all about "muh agency!") - Activity A leads to Situation A if check A succeeds or Choice A is made, and Situation B if check A fails or Choice B is made.

I use the term "guided" in the sense that the players drive the outcomes based on their checks/choices - they "guide" the flow of the chart. "Pre-set" outcomes just means you have the outcomes made beforehand, so it's not invented on the fly.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
varyingly boring, embarrassing and creepy until somebody got in a fight.
This is one of my main worries. And yeah, I definitely don't want to make a habit of playing basic social interactions out. Forcing players to haggle etc is excruciating. But I thought I'd make a Point Crawl out of a big night out using plot nodes and see how it played out.
The trend toward carousing tables addresses (a) but ignores (b), which is why I argue against them, at least unless you work in some player choice.
and yeah, we're definitely on the same page here. Somewhere between the hand-wave and the agonizing play-by-play lies the sweet spot I'm looking for.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Here's the Vue diagram I was dicking around with. All the nodes with a pen icon on them have nested rules. Below is the Node Crawl I started on. Sorry, it's a wide JPG, you'll have to do some scrolling around...
BigNightOut01a.jpg
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
OK. The light is beginning to dawn on me.

You want something in between (a) total table abstraction, and (b) minute skill-checks or awkward conversions. Right?

This makes sense to me---although honestly I've never had this be an issue because I lack the tables for (a), and I don't let conversations get awkward or too fiddly (and I there is no 1e conversational skill checks, except a reaction role...which I often forget to use).

However, there is TONS of NPC conversation---but usually only on-topic based on player agenda.

Here's some examples (although this would never happen with my group).

PLAYER: I go up to the bar maid and proposition her.​
DM: She's not interested.​

See, we've abstracted the uncomfortable parts away.

Here's something that did just happen with my players that goes a bit deeper:

PLAYER 1 (disguised as Prince Lars): I look for a back door to the kitchen.​
DM (me): There's one open on the north side of the Inn.​
P1: I walk in.​
DM: The owner's sister-in-law is there. She asks if she can be of service.​
P1: I tell her I want a chunk of raw meat.​
DM (not doing a girl's voice to the best of my knowledge): "My lord? Wouldn't you rather I prepare you one of our finest steaks?"
P1: "No. I..errr...need it to maintain my amazing constitution." (a silly and needless lie)​
DM (as cook): "A piece of raw meat? That's...unusual?"
P1: "I have a piece every day---but I wouldn't recommend you do it. You'd get sick."
DM (as cook): "Um. Maybe I should go get Gordy...I'm not sure I understand."
P1: "No! I mean...don't bother him...he's very busy."
DM (as cook): "My lord! Forgive me! I am not used to speaking with royalty! I fear I've offended you!". She knees in front of you.
...(etc.)​

The point of all the back-and-forth in this example is the seamless transition between abstracted actions (She asks if she can be of service.) to actually verbal repartee when I (as DM) see an opening to twart/trip-up the player's intent---to add a small challenge to a simple abstracted act.

In this example, the player wants something (raw meat to give to a giant owl), and rather than just make it abstracted/easy on them ("OK. You go to the kitchen and get some".) I use knowledge of the NPC's I've populated the Roadhouse Inn with (e.g. the owner's sister-in-law who runs the kitchen and comes from a near-by farm) to try and add some complexity/challenge to the scenario. All this is complicated by the fact that the PC is masquerading as the crowned Prince is afraid of exposure by acting too suspiciously. When the whole situation starts to spiral out of control in a Marx Brothers-esque manner, that's when everyone at the gaming table has a good time (self included) and even players who aren't technically "present" in the conversation start chiming in on what to say and do.

One other "favorite" lines of NPC interactions include giving instructions to well-meaning-but-seriously-dense NPCs a la the castle guards in Python's Holy Grail. Again: my players want something and I decide it's an opportunity to make it slightly difficult. Challenge is at the heart of any game.

To me, this is a combination of two things:
(a) a well prepared "setting" (i.e. know your cast of actors and the environment)
(b) DM comfort-level with improvisational banter

The whole "plot" is something much larger in the campaign, e.g. we are heading out tomorrow to scout the road north to get to the Steadying.

Also note, I never made a roll. I would/could if I was uncertain of how the NPC would react and I didn't want to "rig" the result...but otherwise, I use my judgement based on my (pre)imagined backstory for the NPC.

This is typical of our civilized/city-stuff: 99% reactive to player-driven motives. In this case, the one player wanted to befriend a giant owl (familiar) of a dead wizard. That's not something I prepped...not a plot-line I put out there for "Tonight's Game"...instead it was just a small tertiary detail of the setting I sketched out almost 6 years ago that the party we just now fiddling with on their 5th visit to that particular podunk establishment.

You see, that's why I think prep (adding interesting, open-ended, and tertiary details) is so important---even if the players walk right past them. Those elements give depth to the world, and allow you to do improv that is not linear/obvious/predictable or arbitrary, but instead riffing off of a foundation that persists whether-or-not the players ever discover it. I'm not sure why this matters to me so much---but it does.

OK. I'm at the end of another long post where I've explained how I'm doing it...and inadvertently sounding like a lecture. That's a false impression. Our "system" works well enough in that I eventually have to coax the party to get moving because they want to repartee endlessly with NPCs and see what verbal hi-jinx result. This is fun, but not our best D&D. Also, as I mentioned before, it's TOO reactive. They get thwarted a bit by my homespun D&D approach, but it lacks the dynamic injection of (as John Lennon famously said) "[D&D] is what happens to you while you're making other plans."

So what I am VERY interested in others sharing (in the concrete) how they run City adventures, as I want "something more" to add to the approach I've already been using.

But I don't want a complex web of tables that just ultimately delivers content I'm going to have to "heavily improvise" anyway---because I feel like I've already got that base covered in a way I am far more comfortable with and I think is a step above either (a) pure randomness and/or (b) pure DM-fiat.

Long post. I know. Sorry. But I'm waiting for some work to get completed...
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Here's the Vue diagram I was dicking around with. All the nodes with a pen icon on them have nested rules. Below is the Node Crawl I started on. Sorry, it's a wide JPG, you'll have to do some scrolling around...
Wow T1T! You've almost invented a mini-game!
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
So what I am VERY interested in others sharing (in the concrete) how they run City adventures, as I want "something more" to add to the approach I've already been using.

But I don't want a complex web of tables that just ultimately delivers content I'm going to have to "heavily improvise" anyway---because I feel like I've already got that base covered in a way I am far more comfortable with and I think is a step above either (a) pure randomness and/or (b) pure DM-fiat.
People have been sharing that information with you all along; you've just been waving it away saying "nah, not my style" or "nah, I'd prefer this". This is what frustrates me about you squeen (and many others round these parts) - you adamantly refuse to adapt anything you do unless it already aligns with what you've been doing.

City adventures have always had an element of improvisation - more so than anywhere else in the game. The very fact that you can't just open a copy of a DMG and go "see, THAT'S how to run a city adventure" is evidence of this. Nothing has been set in stone and a city environment is entirely open-ended by nature, and so by virtue that leaves gaps that must be filled with improvisation.

Saying "I want something that lets me avoid improvisation entirely in my city adventures" is either asking for a pure railroad experience, or asking for the impossible.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution"
- Albert Einstein
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Last comment on my example (above). Think Hommlet. Gygax knows from his home campaign all the NPCs---and lays them out for you. The plot is the backstory of the ToEE and Lareth in the Moathouse. But all the stuff with the Church of St. Cuthbert, Otis & Inn of the Welcoming Wench, Ruffus and Burnee in the half-built tower for Verbobonc, all the farmers and where they stash their loot --- that's all pure setting. You are suppose to absorb it (hence it needs to be short and sweet), and then you'll be comfortable enough to start riffing off the content. It's got depth that has NOTHING to do with The Main Objective. Almost all other TSR-published modules lack this depth.

That's why, despite some detractors-who-shall-remain-nameless, T1 is a masterpiece. A lesson on How-to-DM in a bottle. Trent, over at the Mystic Trashheap, calls the AD&D reboot into Hommlet Gygax's Second & Best Attempt at getting the vibe for a Greyhawk campaign right --- intentionally turning away from the wild anything-goes/larger-than-life OD&D happenings in Greyhawk City of his first campaign. Note the explicit DOWNSIZING. In my experience, it's required (until the next Break-Through idea). A huge cosmopolitan city is great fodder for a novel, but too hard to DM in a meaningful way. We lack the tools to package that much information for play. Hommlet is manageable. If you want Epic Scale --- someone (Eberron?) else needs to solve that problem...but I don't thing the hobby has done it yet---but I would love to be proven wrong.

If OD&D was the adolescence of the hobby, AD&D was its Coming of Age.

Despite all our back-and-forth here, I keep coming back to this conclusion. OD&D was the most readily accessible and silly fun---but AD&D despite it's awkward moments/presentation is the most complete version of this game ever produced. It's still the Encyclopedia Galatica for figuring things out because it evolved from insanely intense play like the world probably hasn't seen since. Everything 2e onward (including many OSR clones), was back-tracking towards OD&D simplicity that catered to accessibility/player-desires. AD&D is advanced. It is fiddly-hard to learn. It doesn't player-cater (err..too much...stupid half-orcs/paladins/etc). But it gets you to sustainable play for a campaign---the Greater D&D. It's not particularly good at delivering a single night of casual fun, or very accessible for new DMs or players.

Whew! I'm on a rant.
 
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The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Wow T1T! You've almost invented a mini-game!
Yeah, I dig what you're saying above and in general that's closer to how I run a city session, but I wanted to design a mini-game so the guys could do some dice rolling (which is a much enjoyed activity in my group so long as it's not too repetitive).
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Yeah, I dig what you're saying above and in general that's closer to how I run a city session...
Be honest with me, was it worth the write up or am I just stating the obvious?---common practice and all that.
Just need a sanity check.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
A huge cosmopolitan city is great fodder for a novel, but too hard to DM in a meaningful way.
I keep going back to Sigil. I've also done alright with Greyhawk. Waterdeep didn't work out for me for some reason; too set in stone maybe?

If OD&D was the adolescence of the hobby, AD&D was its Coming of Age.
Look at you poking the bear like a wild man...
do not engage
do not engage
dooo nottttt....
....all I'm going to say is I loved AD&D all through the 80's and 2nd ed. all through the 90's, but the second 3e came out I jumped ship and never looked back. AD&D's crunch was clunky and cumbersome. You literally needed a DM screen full of special tables to just play the basic game.
I love the adventures from TSR's glory days but have zero nostalgia for those rules. I'm glad you enjoy them however and salute the many grognards out there using those crusty old rules to make more adventures like the ones I liked.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Be honest with me, was it worth the write up or am I just stating the obvious?---common practice and all that.
Just need a sanity check.
You may have belaboured the point somewhat lol :p but it definitely serves to clear up what you have been talking about. :D
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
I keep going back to Sigil. I've also done alright with Greyhawk. Waterdeep didn't work out for me for some reason; too set in stone maybe?
Which "Greyhawk"? Certainly Gygax never put on out there? Was there a 2e version?

I'm going see if I can get a peek at Sigil --- is that the Full name?

Look at you poking the bear like a wild man...
do not engage
do not engage
dooo nottttt....
Peace. :)
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
You may have belaboured the point somewhat lol :p but it definitely serves to clear up what you have been talking about. :D
And that's what most commonly done? Right?

(I should watch some good on-line videos to get my post-2010 D&D bearings---the few I've seen have been hard to stomach.)
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
(I should watch some good on-line videos to get my post-2010 D&D bearings---the few I've seen have been hard to stomach.)
This isn't an edition thing though. DM's narrate in this fashion in just about every version of the game. The rules don't inform a particular style of city campaign, the person behind the screen does.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Ah! I read the synopsis here, and honestly it does sound like fun --- something wholly appropriate for my players to land in while traveling the Ethereal Plane. High-level dungeon-like, crazy, over-the-top, unsustainable gonzo. It can even have Tieflings (who come from a world in the Ethereal Plane --- and no, you can't play one). ;P

I'll have to see what the interior detail looks like. Thanks.

(Still avoiding my questions about if everyone does it that way?)
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Sure. "In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil" and "Uncaged: Faces of Sigil" and "The Planewalkers Handbook" really help. If you get your players into the player-facing literature, they'll do a lot of the heavy lifting for you.

(Still avoiding my questions about if everyone does it that way?)
Sorry, this conversation has gone non-linear. What's the question again?
 
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