squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I'm in LotR now, but Dune is probably next. In the later Herbert books, (e.g. Chapterhouse, etc.) there is a conspicuous lack of central hero. While I enjoyed them, it leaves a hole.
Book Fucking Talk
- Thread starter bryce0lynch
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I'd go even further: there's a conspicuous lack of characters, period. The most entertaining parts of Herbert's writing are the appendices.
I never cared at all about Gurney Halleck as an individual until I saw Josh Brolin portray him onscreen, and I never cared about Thufir Hawat until I saw Timothy Chalomet race ahead to give him a hug after a long separation. Little moments go a long way towards making you care. Herbert doesn't write those moments.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
This is a good example of how film adaptations, done well, can bring something new to the source material that adds value to the overall story, without necessarily diminishing the impact of original. They are different media, are good at different things, and can complement each other without having to be the same.
Yes, but for the record I don't think the flaws in the original are the fault of the medium. At the risk of stating the obvious, there's a multitude of characters in written fiction whom I do care about, from Big Dan and Little Anne to Anne Shirley to Corwin of Amber to Morrolan e'Drien and Aliera e'Kieron and Devera. Herbert's writing just happens to come from a place, like GRRM's, where I Don't Care What Happens To These People, although in GRRM's case it's because they're all grindingly unpleasant to each other whereas in Herbert's case it's because they're hardly characters at all.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Anne Shirley? Really?! That's a very developed character. My wife read the whole series aloud to the kids & I loved to listen.
I do agree about Corwin (and Merlin) of Amber. Something was absent, despite the many Amber books over decades. They skated to effortlessly and shallowly through their life. Very hedonistic 1970's male personas---i.e. unlikable.
Herbert's gift was for teasing the exotic. Perhaps I'll have more to say when I reread them again.
I will say this: LotR holds up. I've reread it every 5-7 years starting with my older sister's copy in 1975. I get something new and wonderful out of it every time. The language is lush, and the details masterful. Without a doubt my all-time favorite story, hands down. Truly a masterpiece of literature.
I do agree about Corwin (and Merlin) of Amber. Something was absent, despite the many Amber books over decades. They skated to effortlessly and shallowly through their life. Very hedonistic 1970's male personas---i.e. unlikable.
Herbert's gift was for teasing the exotic. Perhaps I'll have more to say when I reread them again.
I will say this: LotR holds up. I've reread it every 5-7 years starting with my older sister's copy in 1975. I get something new and wonderful out of it every time. The language is lush, and the details masterful. Without a doubt my all-time favorite story, hands down. Truly a masterpiece of literature.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Sure, my comment was more aimed at the "the book is always better than the movie" crowd.
That's what I mean: I care about Anne Shirley et al. in a way Herbert never made me care about Duncan Idaho, et alia. I get the feeling Dune works best if you hate House Harkonnen, but... I barely notice they exist. To me, Dune reads more like a thought experiment than a story.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Oops! I misreading your original post. Sorry.
That mean you and I are split on the Amber protagonist.
Howard Andrew Jones
*eyeroll*
I spent a pleasant hour this morning reading through all of the posts here over the last few years.
Gardner Fox's Kothar and Kyrik books are pretty dreadful, which is why I put off reading any other prose by him for years. But, lo and behold, he can be QUITE good. I finally broke down and read what I'd heard was a good historical by him, and I actually found it outstanding. I was expecting it to feel more like those bloated '50s historicals that look like they'll be cool but have very little happening in them. But *The Borgia Blade* kicked butt. Highly recommended.
I posted on my blog about it a while back:
Gardner Fox's Kothar and Kyrik books are pretty dreadful, which is why I put off reading any other prose by him for years. But, lo and behold, he can be QUITE good. I finally broke down and read what I'd heard was a good historical by him, and I actually found it outstanding. I was expecting it to feel more like those bloated '50s historicals that look like they'll be cool but have very little happening in them. But *The Borgia Blade* kicked butt. Highly recommended.
I posted on my blog about it a while back:
Howard Andrew Jones
*eyeroll*
I loooove the original Chronicles of Amber. Blew the doors off of my imagination when I read it in junior high. The shepherd/husky mix behind me is named Corwin...Oops! I misreading your original post. Sorry.
That mean you and I are split on the Amber protagonist.
That's fair. Corwin's not necessarily someone I like a lot, but I do know he likes to smoke, gets along with Random but not with Eric, is ruthless and willing to backstab Eric but ultimately fights to save Amber in a pinch, is far more tenacious and ambitious than I am, etc. When you say he's hedonistic and shallow I don't experience a strong feeling of disagreement, but compared to reading the letters "Gurney Halleck" on the page over and over with no real idea what person those letters are supposed to mean, I feel like I do know who Corwin of Amber is. And I even miss having him around, during the second set of books.Oops! I misreading your original post. Sorry.
That mean you and I are split on the Amber protagonist.
I really like Aliera e'Kieron by the way, even though she's a Chaotic Evil psychopath.
But a funny one, since it's not real life. One of my favorite bits:“Vlad? I’m rather busy just at the—”
“Aliera, Kragar is hurt. Dying.”
“Yes?” she said. “And?”
“And I need to save him.”
“Best of luck with that.”
“Aliera.”
“What?”
“It’s Kragar.”
“I’m glad you understand.”
“Aliera, he was hit because he’s been helping me.”
There was a pause. Then a psychic sigh. “Are you with him?”
“Yes.”
The was a pop of displaced air, and she said, “Fine, then. But you owe me.”
Howard Andrew Jones
*eyeroll*
He has more depth than he's aware of, which is one of the great things I love about Zelazny's writing -- the plot and worldbuilding has layers within layers, and many of the characters are deeper than they present themselves.. Often Corwin tells you one thing but his actions reveal a *little* bit more. Yeah, he's a bastard, and so is most of the rest of his family, but there's a curious streak that keeps him from outright evil... most of the time. He can even be noble and giving if he doesn't stop to think about it too hard. Like in Nine Princes when he throws his own escape hatch away when he and Bleys assault Mount Kolvir by tossing Bleys his trumps without thinking about the repercussions. I could illustrate with many other examples. But then when I was in junior high, high school, and college I read the first series over and over again the way some folks revisit LoTR.
Not until I finally read Chandler did I realize that Zelazny had stolen the opening from Farewell, My Lovely's middle section, or that his prose style had been partly inspired by Chandler, which is never a terrible thing if you're a good writer, although a terrible road to follow if you're not one...
Good point! That was pretty cool.
I would like to hear some of your other examples if you don't mind, just to refresh my memory and my fondness for the character.
Edit: oh! I like how he spares Benedict despite fearing him.
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I cared about those characters when I read it! That said a visual medium does a lot and I agree that's not Herbert's focus right. Very Paul centered. There is a reason for that I will talk about in my next post!
One thing that has hit me this time is Herbert's philosophy. The reason everyone loves 1 is the heroes journey.
The reason 2 is a fuck you, Herbert did not like that people blindly thought Paul was cool. As the books go there is less of a central hero, dune is revitalizing itself. This ecological metaphor represents Herbert's political view that JFK was the worst president.
A hero that people did not question, like Paul. As the books became less with a Paul, Dune prospered.
As with smart writers this is a simplification granted. This facet of Herbert used to upset me so much I considered Dune the Matrix of books.
That might be changing with this reread. More to come.
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Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I always loved that passage. Note sure I agree with the alignment and psych assessment, though. She is superficially uninterested in saving Kragar because of her history with him. Her history with Vlad doesn't really help, because she sort of treats him like an annoying little brother (which he kind of is); she protects him without hesitation if he is in a real jam, but otherwise doesn't want to be bothered with his shit. In the end she helps Kragar in spite of her relationships with him and with Vlad, because she cannot in good conscience let someone die who has been helping her. Probably her most endearing trait is a strong sense of loyalty.I really like Aliera e'Kieron by the way, even though she's a Chaotic Evil psychopath.
“Vlad? I’m rather busy just at the—”
“Aliera, Kragar is hurt. Dying.”
“Yes?” she said. “And?”
“And I need to save him.”
“Best of luck with that.”
“Aliera.”
“What?”
“It’s Kragar.”
“I’m glad you understand.”
“Aliera, he was hit because he’s been helping me.”
There was a pause. Then a psychic sigh. “Are you with him?”
“Yes.”
The was a pop of displaced air, and she said, “Fine, then. But you owe me.”
It's also worth keeping in mind that Vlad is an unreliable narrator, and we have not yet had a story from Aliera 's point of view. Paarfi wrote her quite a bit differently. It would be interesting to hear that conversation from her point of view.
Chaotic? Sometimes, although she can be quite lawful in her thoughts about the Empire, IIRC. Definitely not good, but I would say neutral, not evil. Or maybe just high school evil.
I love your description of Vlad as an annoying little brother. Spot-on, you've verbalized what I could never put into words there. That must have made being rescued by Vlad in Issola even more annoying.
Yeah, "Chaotic Evil" is my half-joking best guess at the original PC's D&D alignment, but I acknowledge that the literary character's moral compass is not easily broken down. I don't agree that she couldn't in good conscience have let Kragar die though, and I halfway believe her threat to kill Kragar if he annoys her afterwards:
Aliera sat back. “Done,” she said.
“He isn’t awake.”
“I used a sleep spell. The screaming was annoying.”
“But you can wake him up, can’t you?”
“But then he’ll say something, and I’ll kill him, and all of this work will be wasted.”
But I guess I don't necessarily 100% believe it, so that's something. My favorite versions of Morrolan and Aliera are the ones we see in Issola, which I like to see as the moments they both live for with all the other books as their ways of killing time between important events.
BTW my best guess for Morrolan's original alignment is Lawful Evil, but I give Aliera the Chaotic Evil nod because she's the one more likely to suggest resorting to sudden violence at any given moment:
“Kill it,” said Aliera, and, at the same time, Morrolan said, “If we can get out cleanly, we should.”
“I’m with you, Morrolan.”
Aliera sniffed disdainfully.
P.S. A great Morrolan quote is:
Morrolan's internal dialogue is great.
Around that time, his cousin Aliera came in, wearing her, what have you bothered me about this time? expression. Morrolan took Blackwand from where she rested against the table, buckled her on, and successfully resisted the temptation to use her on Aliera. It was never a very strong temptation, just a frequent one.
Morrolan's internal dialogue is great.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Aliera and Morrolan are great examples of people who grew up not having to experience consequences, and not fully comprehending on an emotional level the worries of people who do. Like, if Morrolan killed Aliera with Blackwand, Pathfinder would protect her soul, and they would just revivfy her. And all that would do is annoy her. It never occurs to them that anyone would experience violence and death in any other way. It's like the infamous "let them eat cake" comment; its not callousness so much as incomprehension.
I enjoy the fact that the most empathetic - and least Dragaeran - of the lot, including Vlad, is the immortal, undead, alleged vampire. And Keira the thief.
I enjoy the fact that the most empathetic - and least Dragaeran - of the lot, including Vlad, is the immortal, undead, alleged vampire. And Keira the thief.
I'm not so sure about that part. Pathfinder is a recent acquisition, and the protection isn't a 100% guarantee even against a mere Morganti weapon let alone a Great Weapon.
But Aliera probably would claim to find soul destruction as ho-hum as regular death if not more so.
“And otherwise we’ll be killed, I assume,” said Aliera, as if she were being threatened with not being allowed to dinner.
...
Cawti took my hand, and a little later I said, “Okay, start over, all right? I was distracted by sheer terror.”
Aliera sniffed; she was of the school that figured bravery meant never being scared, or at least never admitting it. Morrolan, who was a little saner, seemed to understand, and the Necromancer, of course, had no idea what there had been to be afraid of.
Aliera sniffed; she was of the school that figured bravery meant never being scared, or at least never admitting it. Morrolan, who was a little saner, seemed to understand, and the Necromancer, of course, had no idea what there had been to be afraid of.
What great characters.