Bryce said...

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
This is actually a great example. I remember reading these 2e books back in the day, and they never made sense to me.

Please clear this up for me: what kind of game are we playing? We all know platemail is the strongest mundane protection available. So what does it mean for me, the DM, if one player's fighter wears a billowing, low-cut silk shirt instead? How far does my obligation to this notion extend? Must the silk shirt-wearer be a 'viable build'?

.....A lot of the 2e complete handbooks tried to fit these square pegs into D&D's round hole.
Some of the kits are rubbish, Ill agree, but this is the only way I can clear this up---"Want to play a gladiator? then act like a gladiator! (but just be sure to wear platemail and wield a longsword)"---that would of fixed the statement and I wouldn't of felt the need to respond.

'Preach it' can't be said, when the preaching is a lie and you have no intention of obligating yourself to the notion.

It's not about demanding the DM to change the environment they have set--but an attempt by players to have fun controlling the only 'environment' they can control--their character and then adapting their character to the DM's environment---or not and dying in the process. Whether a DM allows it or not is fine, but there is no need to find a different game when there are rules and guidance presented--but perhaps finding a different table is in order.

And if I may be an insufferably pedantic asshole for a moment; without the addition of firearms in your game, the flamboyant swashbuckler shouldn't stand a snowflake's chance in hell against a man in full plate armour.
But...what about Bronn?

:D
 

TerribleSorcery

Should be playing D&D instead
Some of the kits are rubbish, Ill agree, but this is the only way I can clear this up---"Want to play a gladiator? then act like a gladiator! (but just be sure to wear platemail and wield a longsword)"---that would of fixed the statement and I wouldn't of felt the need to respond.
I meant this question specifically: what kind of game are we playing?

If someone wants to play a gladiator with a fish-helmet or a swashbuckler with a cutlass, but we are playing regular D&D with lances and full plate, then the point of failure was past long ago! To have players show up and say "I want to be [x]," when [x] doesn't fit the milieu shows that one person or another is confused. This about mechanics yes, but also about making the fantasy world believable, to some degree.

The fact that you are describing it as something that *used* to happen in the old days, I think lends credence to my argument here. Of course this happened when we were younger - I certainly didn't know anything about gladiators at the time, except that they looked cool, but as it turns out there is more to it than that. Most of us are older and wiser than we were back then. The DM and players can get on the same page before the game starts.

Do I think there should be one best weapon choice in D&D? Of course not. That's very different from trying to shoehorn archetypes together from across 2000 Earth years and multiple continents into one campaign. Simply saying "here you go!" and giving players a horde of character options with no context is a recipe for a mess. As I recall, that's usually what our 2e games were once those books started coming out. The DM provides the context! The power to limit the scope of the game world must be his purview. The responsibility is on him to have the world make sense, and if he fails the players will justifiably look to blame him.
 

TerribleSorcery

Should be playing D&D instead
But in general I have sympathy for @Malrex's experience. I had a lot of DMs back in the day who, if it wasn't expressly in the rules or on the character sheet, you couldn't do it no matter what your archetype appeared to be. "Acting like a gladiator" wasn't going to accomplish anything except for your character failing to do whatever you thought a gladiator should be able to do.

You'd say "My guy's a pit fighter, so I know a lot of tricks." The DM's like, "cool, I'll give you a +1 or something when you do a great job of describing your actions and we'll make it extra cool if you roll a 20. Plus we'll just call your chainmail 'gladiator armour'".
Actually, this is a better question. What should a gladiator, or pirate or whatever, be able to do that a plain fighter can't?
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I meant this question specifically: what kind of game are we playing?

If someone wants to play a gladiator with a fish-helmet or a swashbuckler with a cutlass, but we are playing regular D&D with lances and full plate, then the point of failure was past long ago! To have players show up and say "I want to be [x]," when [x] doesn't fit the milieu shows that one person or another is confused. This about mechanics yes, but also about making the fantasy world believable, to some degree.

The fact that you are describing it as something that *used* to happen in the old days, I think lends credence to my argument here. Of course this happened when we were younger - I certainly didn't know anything about gladiators at the time, except that they looked cool, but as it turns out there is more to it than that. Most of us are older and wiser than we were back then. The DM and players can get on the same page before the game starts.

Do I think there should be one best weapon choice in D&D? Of course not. That's very different from trying to shoehorn archetypes together from across 2000 Earth years and multiple continents into one campaign. Simply saying "here you go!" and giving players a horde of character options with no context is a recipe for a mess. As I recall, that's usually what our 2e games were once those books started coming out. The DM provides the context! The power to limit the scope of the game world must be his purview. The responsibility is on him to have the world make sense, and if he fails the players will justifiably look to blame him.
What is regular D&D? Everyone will have a different opinion on that.

What can gladiators do than a regular fighter? how about a pirate? there are suggestions in the kit books.....apparently you don't like them, and that's fine. Some of the guidelines I think makes sense and some are dumb...pick and choose and work with the player and give them guidelines for what your world is like...or not and keep an iron fist.

I don't understand the embrace for weird or gonzo stuff...or Expedition to the Barrier Peaks with spaceships and aliens but then slam an iron fist down and say the world must make sense and any player ideas about their characters are not welcomed. Just sounds like a dictatorship rather than playing a game...a game that involves other players and not just a DM.

I'm going to follow EOTB's teachings and bow out of the discussion and agree to disagree. It can't even be a discussion when there is past arguments about candy classes, but then 'preach it' for supporting players who want to play gladiators, but then argue that gladiators must wear plate armor and they don't make sense in the game...and what? The hypocrisy is exhausting. News flash--not all players are out to ruin your precious campaign world.
 

TerribleSorcery

Should be playing D&D instead
Alright, well, I forgot to bring a gun to point at you. You don't have to participate if you don't want to.

The question stands for anyone who wants to explain this to me: what makes a gladiator a gladiator - other than the iconic helmet and trident and net? What are we striving for here? Saying 'there are suggestions in the kit books' is a circular argument, since multiple people have just claimed that the books were published to address a player need that wasn't being met previously.

Actually, small edit:
News flash--not all players are out to ruin your precious campaign world.
Come on man. I have been DMing for 25 years. In fact, most players don't think about the world at all - some not even while they're playing! This is the cheapest argument possible - the equivalent of "oh yeah, you must be fun at parties." If I don't care about the campaign world, who the fuck will?
 
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EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
For most longstanding D&D arguments, there's the argument and there's a multiplicity of personal motivations to make the argument that vary from person to person. So how I respond to the argument varies based on how I read the person.

For an earnest person, I want to hear from them how they plan to address the gladiator's lack of personal freedom, or a pirate splitting time between the party and sailing the seven seas. If they have ideas along these lines I'll also discuss the benefits already present in the rules. (These are "fiddly bits" conventional wisdom often says can be dropped for no impact.)

1. Unlike tank fighters, the gladiator/pirate is likely to keep their reaction/attacking adjustment at all times excepting purposely carrying max treasure loads. In conversation I'm framing this character as the PC who is rarely surprised and a dead-eye shot. I'm presuming they're planning on playing a high-dex fighter if they're engaging honestly with the existing rules engine.

2. The DMG unarmed combat system 1true's DM was trying to foist upon him is built to reward lightly/non-armored characters. We'll talk about how the max move rate of an unarmored character can combine with these tactics to neutralize soft chewy NPCs like magic users, or, other NPCs the player has surprised (when that occurs).

3. Combining with #2 above, we'll talk about nets (since both character types use them), bolas, and how those can work in AD&D combat to the players advantage, to gain a temporary neutralization on a single foe for the player to press their advantages on. If they want to use chains and such we can talk about using the whip rules for "to-hit" and effect, pulling in some lasso mechanics if they make sense.

4. Applying the defense adjustment save bonus to balance situations for the pirate, etc.

Then there's ch-ch-changes. I'm also not shutting the door to variances from the fighter class. The question is what the player wants and how much they're willing to pay. For example:

A. Perhaps the Gladiator has an aristocrat admirer willing to cast the armor spell (or other long-lasting buffs as levels increase) on them before going out on an adventure. This could drop their AC a couple of points. But what drives their infatuation is the celebrity gained through the gladiator risking their lives in the pit on a scheduled basis. If the gladiator becomes a former gladiator, no benefit.

B. the gladiator tithing their loot to the temple that watches over pit fighters gains the players choice of: a broad bonus to saves; the surprise benefit of the ranger (either to surprise others or not be surprised themselves, but not both); or applying their reaction/attack bonus to offset the penalty for fighting blind.

C. Pay 5% XP tax and gain d12 hit die

D. the pirate could gain a comprehend languages skill similar to thieves useful for deciphering maps

Etc.

But the question is whether or not the player wants to play differently or make a character creation choice granting a bundle of generic combat modifiers. I find playing differently interesting, and am willing to explore that. I'm not really inclined to go out of my way to support players who want to subvert the normal play dynamic by virtue of fiat; i.e., "I am a gladiator and so can tank without armor, but I am not interested in risking my character's life in the pit, having the hassles of limited freedom, or any ongoing play style that actually looks gladiatorial or buccaneer-ish".

The key is whether they're advanced players or not. If they don't know how to vary what ongoing table play looks like using that character concept after choosing it, then I don't see value investing my effort into supporting paper-thin fantasy fulfillment.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Sucks. But I don't think there's any easy/systematic way to cure that. Needing a high-caliber DM is a requirement for D&D.
Um, needing a high caliber DM is NOT a systemic fix. A systemic fix would be something that did not require a high caliber DM, because it was fixed by the system.

For those of us who picked up the game in the early days, having a high caliber DM was not an option; our DMs tended to be whoever had the inclination to teach themselves and enough money to pick up a DMG.

If D&D is feeling repetitive, perhaps your DM is not doing enough to vary the environment. Like the pirate vs. the foot-soldier example, circumstances should change enough that different strategies are optimal at different times (i.e. what happens at character "build" can never be optimal and is of little importance). Tonal shifts in mood and situational mini-games help keep things fresh. (Through the Looking Glass, on Mars, swimming through underwater mazes, hacking through jungles, mass combat, court intrigue, switching bodies, etc.). That way, you get to wear many hats irrespective of class ("when in Rome..." again).
You can vary the environment as much as you want, but at some point changing "the environment" ends up being more like choosing a different background when playing Streetfighter II. I just found the combat a bit dull because it was static. I acknowledge that there is a tactical game to be played with 1e initiative rules, but it is very much a dissociated, metagame challenge, whereas I prefer combat decisions that operate for the characters similarly to how they operate for the players.

It isn't the superhero stuff that attracts me to 4e. For "martial", or nonmagical classes, it is the more mundane stuff.

Take a plain 4e fighter. To start with, when he attacks an opponent he can "mark" them, basically focusing attention on the opponent and forcing the opponent to pay attention to him. When it is the opponent's turn to attack, he can attack the fighter, but the fighter usually has a high AC. He can turn to attack someone else, but if he takes his eye of the fighter to do so, the fighter will punish him by taking a swing at him; and because the enemy knows about this risk he is nervous and suffers an attack penalty if he attacks the fighter's ally. So the enemy has a choice; he can attack the fighter, who has a high AC and high HP; or he can attack someone else with lower AC and lower HP at a penalty, risking damage to himself. So there is a ton going on with that single mechanic.

The fighter also gets two other "at-will" attacks at first level. Let's say one of them is "Tide of Iron". All that lets him do is use his shield to shove the enemy back, and move into his space. Another might be "Knockdown Assault", where you give up doing weapon damage in order to knock the enemy on his ass. You would use these in different situations, and they aren't always all that useful, so sometimes you fall back on just whacking our opponent and doing damage. But when they are useful they can change the relative positions of the combatants, or place one at a significant disadvantage.

I first level fighter get one ability which he can use once per combat. Let's say you learn "Shield Riposte". If an enemy who is standing next to you attacks you or an ally, and you are using a shield, you can attack the enemy and push him back; and while he is off balance you have a limited ability to reposition yourself.

You also get one maneuver which you can use once per day. I have issues with daily powers for martial characters conceptually, but the point here is whether they are superheroic. Let's look at "Driving Attack": once per day you can attack the enemy, and if the attack hits, push him back and set him up for a second attack by you; if the second attack hits you push him back again.

In a game where it is very important to keep enemy fighters away from your squishy spellcasters, holding your own line, or breaking the enemy line, has real consequences. Jockeying for position can be very important, and these maneuvers that break lines (and other maneuvers that hold them) are very important. And they are just one way that quite mundane maneuvers can be tactically significant. I really enjoy this, which is a bit reason why 4e is a better fit for me than 1e.

To put it a delicately as possible, to mechanize "fighting techniques" is wanting to start out with special abilities. As a DM, I make it possible to acquire special abilities---but you have to earn them...like a magic-user finding a new spell on a scroll, or a cleric a magic mace. Baking them in at start-up is just a small bit of wish fulfillment.
This is exactly how I run my 4e game, even though it is "mechanized". For the most part, as a nonmagical PC your abilities are pretty mundane at the start; you have to earn (and learn through training) the really cool moves. Let's say our fighter wants to specialize in polearms. Polearms are good for pushing enemies and knocking them down, if you learn the trick. But first you have to learn maneuvers that let you push your opponent while you are not using a shield - Tide of Iron won't cut it. So you have to learn a few more difficult maneuvers to make it worth your while, say two or three maneuvers that include a small push. And then you can learn a technique called "Spear Push", which lets you push just a little further with those maneuvers as log as you are using a spear or a polearm. And then you can learn a technique called "Polearm Momentum", which lets you knock enemies on their ass as long as you are able to get that bigger push on them.

So in order to reliably knock enemies down, you need to have heavily invested in specialized training. You need to have found someone to teach you, and learned, two or three maneuvers with a "push" attached to them; learned a technique to extend that push, and learned a technique to knock down enemies you push. The earliest this can be achieved is generally 12th level (11th level if you find certain magic items). Oh, and you can only learn these techniques if you have a high dex AND a high wisdom.

Again, I know this isn't for everyone, and I'm not trashing the early editions. I'm just saying the early editions don't have this, and it's something I want.

To respond to a couple of posts by @TerribleSorcery and @EOTB that were posted after I started writing this, I looked at 4e options for gladiators and "pirates". Basically, 4e gladiator skills tend to be focused on individual ability; he relies less on the other party members, and he is less oriented toward supporting other party members. So a gladiator will be more effective in a one-on-one fight than a normal fighter, and arguably less effective when working as part of a team.

EDIT: Arena fighters also are skilled with improvised weapons, and get +1 AC if not in heavy armor, which is NOT equivalent to wearing heavy armor even if you have a high dex.

Mariner options tend to focus on giving the character skills related to operating on a ship - out of combat skills, moving in rigging, navigation, balance, additional languages - at the expense of combat ability.
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Um, needing a high caliber DM is NOT a systemic fix. A systemic fix would be something that did not require a high caliber DM, because it was fixed by the system.
Hmm. I thought I wrote the same thing. Err...agree?

I am less inclined to remove the need for excellence than some. One criticism leveled at 4e in the Melan interview is that it was a bicycle built with 3 wheels because someone fell off of a 2-wheel bike once. How accurate this statement was I can't say because I don't know much about 4e apart from hearsay. In the business world, whenever they try to build a fool-proof "systemic solution" it usually dumbs-down and shackles everyone to the lowest common denominator. IT Security is like that now. I generally prefer expert-only systems to "fool-proof".

That aside, wanting less abstracted combat is not a crime...but to me that's a major change to D&D, and I find the mostly abstracted combat of AD&D works fine for my tastes.
 
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Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Alright, well, I forgot to bring a gun to point at you. You don't have to participate if you don't want to.

The question stands for anyone who wants to explain this to me: what makes a gladiator a gladiator - other than the iconic helmet and trident and net? What are we striving for here? Saying 'there are suggestions in the kit books' is a circular argument, since multiple people have just claimed that the books were published to address a player need that wasn't being met previously.
When you make your 100th fighter with platemail and a longsword--no amount of changed environment is going to make that character stand out for me personally (sorta like what Beoric was saying above). Sure there may be some great combat and lucky 20's here and there and some great adventures/memories, but fighters just become all pretty much the same to me with ONE job.

Gladiators...or for any kits for that sake--its for the flavor. That's what I strive for. It helps me picture my character a bit when I play. When DMing, it helps me with hooks for my players. Now I have 2 jobs--one as a fighter and one as a player to try to roleplay my chosen kit and fit into the role that I chose for myself and mold myself into the world the DM is presenting to me.

When you are more specific and choose a kit, it gives me a bit of direction of how I want to roleplay them and what motives they might have. Our quest is to save a princess? Cool, my gladiator is doing it for sure to heap even more fame upon himself and will be sure to boast my deeds around the town...not only that, I'm going to boast about my deeds to my companions and may be a bit annoying as I'm so into myself---'by the way, did you see that I beheaded that orc and got no blood on me--that's skill man...skill.'

There is weapon restrictions, equipment, etc. which help make sure you are committed to your kit and can fit the mold of a gladiator. Looks like I'm restricted to gladiator armor--Thracian AC 9, Gallic AC 7, and Samnite AC 5...gee I wonder how many suits of magical Samnite armor there is--probably zero. Oh well. There are guidelines for the DM to make the gladiator pick a unusual weapon (whip, etc.). How many magical unusual weapons are there usually?

Nonweapon skills--which I don't think you 1e folks use. Which makes me ask--can your characters do anything and most things are hand waved--sounds pretty powerful? I've lost several characters because I didn't choose the swim proficiency and they sunk like a rock. Sometimes forced a mage to use up a valuable spell like water breathing or force me to use a potion so I can survive...an extra way for resource management to enter the game!

The special benefits--this seems like the biggest hangup? one free weapon specialization, which 1e folks don't use anyways. Also restricted to what weapons I can use it on...how many magical drussus are out there I wonder....but hey, I'm a candy class, I'll be fine as I'm ultra powerful for some reason!

Special hindrances--this is where the DM can apply the checks and balances to these candy classes. Gladiators are recognized making stealth missions difficult. Promoters are always trying to interfere in their life. You can make a character's life a living hell if you wish, but if you don't roleplay then these hindrances aren't going to be weaknesses and you will think that these guys are just a candy class, just like paladins. From the 2e Gladiator kit: "To make sure this is regarded as a hindrance, the DM should make it clear that these promoters are mostly of the sleazy variety who will cheat, rob and betray him at the drop of a hat." So many adventure hooks could be made from this hindrance....do you disagree?

Plus, there is the challenges....how is my pirate going to fight a hill giant? time to get creative.

EOTB has a great point:

But the question is whether or not the player wants to play differently or make a character creation choice granting a bundle of generic combat modifiers. I find playing differently interesting, and am willing to explore that. I'm not really inclined to go out of my way to support players who want to subvert the normal play dynamic by virtue of fiat; i.e., "I am a gladiator and so can tank without armor, but I am not interested in risking my character's life in the pit, having the hassles of limited freedom, or any ongoing play style that actually looks gladiatorial or buccaneer-ish".

The key is whether they're advanced players or not. If they don't know how to vary what ongoing table play looks like using that character concept after choosing it, then I don't see value investing my effort into supporting paper-thin fantasy fulfillment.
If players are trying to candy ass their way out of their chosen kit or class (i.e. paladin) and avoid the hindrances and just reap the benefits, then yeah--I'm in agreement with you guys--I wouldn't be inclined to let players use the kits or try a pirate or whatever. Sounds horrible and maybe that is what happened to all of you. But as a DM, it's my responsibility to be sure to use those hindrances to create drama, hooks, memorable NPCs and whatever, in fact it only makes my job easier and makes the player more engaged because it has something to do with their specific character that they chose to play. For example, around my table, players think long and hard about making a paladin--because they are hard due to hindrances (mostly roleplay hindrances).

Picture it like Bryce's evocative wording in dungeon design---a large rat vs. a malnourished, beady-eye rat...which one helps you describe the scene better or sounds more interesting? A fighter in platemail or a gladiator holding a net and trident.

Actually, small edit:

Come on man. I have been DMing for 25 years. In fact, most players don't think about the world at all - some not even while they're playing! This is the cheapest argument possible - the equivalent of "oh yeah, you must be fun at parties." If I don't care about the campaign world, who the fuck will?
I'm sure you are a great DM. In fact, I think everyone who comes to these forums is a great DM because they are taking the extra time to learn about the hobby and improve. But in those 25 years of DMing--have you ever been a player? Have you experienced the restrictions that DMs can place?

In my experience, I found that when I loosen the iron fist a bit and allow players to flex their imagination with their characters, they become way more engaged in the world because they have created a specific character in the world that I have presented to them. Suddenly I got the player emailing me between play sessions about how they want to flesh out the arena where their gladiator used to fight and some NPC names/trainers and whatnot and a part of the world that I hadn't fleshed out now has something there that I could use as a DM or totally ignore. Its fantastic. It makes the world feel more alive. As a player, I appreciate that I can be creative and run things by my DM to see if its acceptable or not. If I'm totally shoehorned into platemail and longsword if I want to be a fighter, then I'm bored and wouldn't really care about the DM's world. Flavor--That's what I'm striving for.

Just seems way better and more engaging to me personally, then just another fighter in platemail with a longsword.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Hmm. I thought I wrote the same thing. Err...agree?

I am less inclined to remove the need for excellence that some. One criticism leveled at 4e in the Melan interview is that it was a bicycle built with 3 wheels because someone fell off of a 2-wheel bike once. How accurate this statement was I can't say because I don't know much about 4e apart from hearsay. In the business world, whenever they try to build a fool-proof "systemic solution" it usually dumbs-down and shackles everyone to the lowest common denominator. IT Security is like that now. I generally prefer expert-only systems to "fool-proof".

That aside, wanting less abstracted combat is not a crime...but to me that's a major change to D&D, and I find the mostly abstracted combat of AD&D works fine for my tastes.
I think it's fair to say that 4e is easier to adopt for new DMs and players, but that is mostly because of how the basic information is organized. Which is fine for beginners, but a bit wanting for those who want to do anything outside of the box.

It think the problem is that (as I perceive it) the designers didn't really have a coherent plan for how they designed many things. They just tried shit and playtested and tweaked until it worked. It was the serious users of the system that deconstructed it and found the patterns that enabled DMs to modify and create content. Unfortunately, that information is spread all over the internet, and a lot of it has been deleted. Which makes true system mastery difficult to achieve, because the information you need is not in official material.

It also requires skill and/or expertise to get the most out of the combat system. It is one thing to be able to push an enemy; knowing when to push is something else. Player skill really matters for combat, especially if you are taking on encounters tougher then the guidelines.

Of course, that means it isn't for everyone; I especially see a lot of complaints from DMs who aren't very good at it, who regularly get their asses handed to them by players who are, and complain that 4e isn't challenging enough (and then try to increase the difficulty without knowing what they are doing, resulting in unfair TPKs).

So the basic game is foolproof, but you can get a lot more out of it as a player or DM if you have expertise with the combat system, and even more as a DM if you have expertise in the underlying mechanics.

@Malrex, later in the edition 1e had both non-weapon proficiencies and weapon specialization. A lot of the purists don't use them, though.
 
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The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
But the question is whether or not the player wants to play differently or make a character creation choice granting a bundle of generic combat modifiers. I find playing differently interesting, and am willing to explore that.
This is amazing, and you are obviously an excellent DM who would probably even codify these altered character classes so the player could be confident that the rules will remain the same right through to the end of their character's career, but you can't always rely on scoring an excellent DM out in the wild. I think Beoeric nailed it with this:

Um, needing a high caliber DM is NOT a systemic fix. A systemic fix would be something that did not require a high caliber DM, because it was fixed by the system.

For those of us who picked up the game in the early days, having a high caliber DM was not an option; our DMs tended to be whoever had the inclination to teach themselves and enough money to pick up a DMG.
So, for a lot of us, having a rules system that put at least some of the power in the players' hands significantly reduced conflict at the table.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
@Malrex, later in the edition 1e had both non-weapon proficiencies and weapon specialization. A lot of the purists don't use them, though.
They are in OSRIC as optional rules.
Was that introduced in Unearthed Arcana? Been so long, can't even remember. Optional is probably a good way to go.

I know the house rules at the table I play at morphed weapon specialization and combat in general into a whole different monster--actually sounds similar to 4e from Beoric's post. While the combat feels more realistic, it can really slow down the battles and eat up a lot of time. Admittedly, I go back and forth on how I feel about it. Sometimes I love thinking up and applying tactics and strategies for every round of combat, but I also can appreciate Squeen's comment on preferring 'mostly abstracted combat' as there is a beauty to that as well and can make a smoother game.

Non-weapon proficiencies--I think can add some flavor, as stated in my Covid-fevered rant above. What I like about them is they are usually in the background and can pop up and be useful in certain situations, never used at all, or mean life or death (i.e. always take swimming!). As the table I play at seems to embrace trying to be realistic as possible, non-weapon proficiencies can add some cool components to the game that doesn't feel overbearing.

How many of you use proficiencies and specializations? Hate em or love em?
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I prefer the granularity of secondary skills, where you have some experience in one (or maybe two) mundane profession(s). And this is done via roll.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
How many of you use proficiencies and specializations? Hate em or love em?
I know that was an old-school question, but I just spent an entire campaign putting all my Skill points and Feats into Crafting and Knowledge instead of min-maxing my wizard. I've been a support character, building cool shit for the party and solving dungeon mysteries with my encyclopaedic knowledge. It has been extremely rewarding. Basically an Industrial Mage build.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Was that introduced in Unearthed Arcana? Been so long, can't even remember. Optional is probably a good way to go.
...
How many of you use proficiencies and specializations? Hate em or love em?
Yes, they were from UA --- and I've started using them about a year or so ago. So far, minimal impact but I am fine with that. There is also the "double weapon proficiency" sub-option which I have ignored.

I do want to go on record saying I see a very definite niche for a rules-light D&D as a basic/introductory/casual play-enabler. I think new players and new DMs need it especially. Combat abstraction is the best way to start fresh, IMO. For me OD&D fills that slot, but I imagine B/X could too. Right now, I am really appreciating the subtleties of the "A" in AD&D and will stick with that. Additional bells & whistles (to taste) can be fine too, but I think they are best left in the realm of house-rules.

If I was really into playing fighters I might be hungry for more (or not)...but I think what gets missed is in all that role-playing (which became the dominate form for D&D) and augmented-mechanics is that there is another style that preceded it that totally works, never seems to get repetitive or boring for it's many practitioners, and oddly does not suffer a bit for all things those who dislike it claim it lacks. But it's hard to get right, and attracts a lot of haters as a result. It does pass the test of time, and many in the hobby circle back to it for good reason.

That's the kind of D&D I love as a player and DM and while I know that it doesn't have mass appeal (actually I think that's kind of a plus), I refuse to acknowledge that it's not the very best way to play the game. It takes a maestro DM to make it truly sing, and a certain level of skill and suppression-of-ego to be a player too---all that I see that as a plus too. After all, isn't that's why people go out to the symphony? To witness masterful excellence? :)
 
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