Bryce said...

[squeen]

How about if non-essential background info is just presented in the body of the text but with an earmarked "Lore" heading (or sidebar box)? That way, the DM knows quickly which text can be skipped while scanning during play. It allows for localization of data too...but I think some sort or "Lore Guide" in the Appendix would be an index of all those local items, arranged by subject matter, would be a necessity.

Of course, restraint in the frequency and length of the Lore would need to be exercised.

Here's a sample of what I'm playing with right now for my own content write-ups. It's fun trying to be a good "Bryce-ian", although I know it's probably way too long for his tastes (a 1/2 column for essentially an empty room). It's from the Storm Drains beneath the Royal Palace, and it specifically trying for a skulking-around/exploration focus.



1) Everything above the horizontal line is "just the facts". It's what (if you've ever read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land) a Fair Witness would report---totally non-subjective without inference, and with an added effort to report the most immediately obvious stuff first. It's not read-aloud per-se, but its all "safe" to convey (except for the parenthetical info).

The second paragraph is "What Sherlock Holmes would notice".

2) Below the divider, everything that was in boldface above, gets its own linked paragraph with further detail for the DM to parse and then relate. I'm giving myself more permission here to be verbose. Important items are in italics to help a bit with scanning.

3) Lastly---and relevant to the discussion above---I've added a LORE section at the bottom. I know Bryce hates long paragraphs in italics, so it all is non-essential info begging the DM with ADD to skip. In this example, the Lore I included is particularly weak/useless, but I added it in order to have a example to post.

Your thoughts?

 

[bryce0lynch]

1) it's fine, overall,
2) First paragraph good. A little dry, but not everything is Gamma World, eh?
3) 2nd para. "A careful examination ..." is an If/Then clause. "bending to the center/terminating at" is a little long winded to say from X to Y.
4) 3rd Para. "Putting a body's weight .." aka "pulling hard" This whole section is a little rube goldbergy/fact based for my tastes.
5) Does it matter the lantern has no fuel? Or the specificity of the central and side drawers?You're missing an opportunity for a joke/immersion, etc for what the music box plays
6) The oak cask again gets a bit fact based.
7) Your central question is ok, yes, sticking it in Lore is fine; its the same as an appendix, something I can filter out when using it.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I see a few spots you can condense your writing (for instance, "hangs from a high (15') ceiling" - 15' is a direct measurement; you don't need to tell someone that it's high. Likewise for "Putting a full body's weight (100lbs or more)" when you could just say "Putting 100lbs or more"). Little things like that can be cleaned up. Same for stuff like your barrel: that whole thing could be condensed to "stoppered cask of lamp oil; elfin chain armor hidden inside" - the DM can work with that... they don't need specifics for how to open the cask, or that it is a type of wine cask, or what oil looks like. You're being too prescriptive of the situation, which leaves no DM wiggle room.

Unless the detail actually comes into play (for instance, if the oil cask was hidden in amongst a bunch of other oil casks, and is differentiated because it looks more like a wine cask than an oil cask, or whatever), then there's not much gained by including it. If you do feel the need to include any extraneous details like that, you'd better make sure they are INTERESTING - the big issue with clogging up entries is that it is being clogged with totally MUNDANE stuff, which is not evocative, and only serves to restrict the DM rather than help them make a more interesting scene.

Also, the way you've delineated between the stuff that's easily seen and the stuff that's not immediately apparent could be set off in a different way than just "paragraph 2 is hidden stuff". Off the top of my head, you could change the font (different font, different color, italics, etc) or you could change the layout (actually add a little line separating the two, or a box behind the text, or a little colored tag at the corner that denotes "not immediately apparent" or whatever). I'd take Bryce's stance on fonts and italics with a grain of salt - it's obvious his eyesight is poor, but just because there is poor eyesight in the world doesn't mean libraries need to dump all their normal books for large type books, you know?

As for lore: like details, if they can't be used in some way by the players, then its better to omit them. Let the details of the room paint the picture of its use and history. The game is so much better when player minds can fill in the details rather than being inundated with every little tidbit.

 

[squeen]

1) it's fine, overall,
2) First paragraph good. A little dry, but not everything is Gamma World, eh?
3) 2nd para. "A careful examination ..." is an If/Then clause. "bending to the center/terminating at" is a little long winded to say from X to Y.
4) 3rd Para. "Putting a body's weight .." aka "pulling hard" This whole section is a little rube goldbergy/fact based for my tastes.
5) Does it matter the lantern has no fuel? Or the specificity of the central and side drawers?You're missing an opportunity for a joke/immersion, etc for what the music box plays
6) The oak cask again gets a bit fact based.
7) Your central question is ok, yes, sticking it in Lore is fine; its the same as an appendix, something I can filter out when using it.

Damn you're good.
1) Meh. Boring example. The whole area is fairly empty---they are just storm drains. This room has a few things to monkey with.
2) True. FAIL on "evocative" pillar.
3) Probably should move the 2nd paragraph "below the line". I'm not sure how to indicate additional overall detail if a through search is undertaken in an area (without an if/then). Do I just state: "There are trails in the dust." and then let the DM decide if and when they are noticed.
4) 10-4 on the Rube Goldberg trap. I walked right into that one.
5) The lack of lantern fuel plays into the fact that a light source here is an issue---during actual play, the party is likely to stumble into this space without their full equipment and have to find a new exit at risk of stumbling around in the dark. You are right --- the lack of a Musical Gag is a criminal oversight.
6) Yeah. I'm a wordy bastard.
7) Glad to hear it. Still, probably easy to abuse.

With Lore, although DP is generally down on it's inclusion, I think there is a "secret life" to a setting. It is superfluous, no doubt, AND can get in the way too---but it seems a bit of a shame for all the dynamic (big picture?) data to be entirely discarded. If used in moderation, I think it could be useful for a DM to riff off of if they wanted to create new elements. Maybe its just me...maybe its the path to the Bloated Dark Side calling.

Anyway, many thanks for the feedback. I'll try to clean it up.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

With Lore, although DP is generally down on it's inclusion,

Again, I'm not "down" on lore - it just needs to be implemented properly; that is, unobtrusive, purposeful, and in a way that adds to the adventure rather than detracts. I'm still of the mind that it can be effectively added at a plausible "section break" which allows for it to be referenced by the DM without getting in his way.

For instance:

Areas 19-28: it was in these areas (the living suite of a dwarf noble and his entourage), that the Dwarves of Solmok-Hai bravely held out against the unending demon hordes. Their dead now litter the halls, and every room shows battle scars from their valiant last stand.

Area 19 - Bedroom: The bed bears slash marks (fiery claws). A mouldering dwarf corpse has been folded in half and stuffed into an armoire. Blah blah blah.

 

[squeen]

Here's version 2. A bit tighter and perhaps no longer assuming the DM is an incompetent moron.



Note the "broken English" in the LORE section. While I am generally and not a fan of that, I think it's usage here might be justified to keep it ultra-brief.

Amusingly (to me), with regard to the cask of lamp oil: I was thinking LIGHT SOURCE, but my players had other ideas....
...It immediately got dumped over as FIRE TRAP!

I'm hoping this form of technical writing is like a muscle that gets stronger with regular use...next December's deadline is starting to worry me.

 

[Malrex]

Something I learned from Guy Fullerton...you can get rid of the word "will" like 98% of the time. Every time I see it now (at work or whatever) I try to get rid of it. I only see it a few times up above...
"Applying 100-lb or more on the bell rope causes it to budge..."

Your first paragraph is ordered wrong in my opinion. Bell rope is good, second sentence fine...third sentence should go to the very end. You mention the desk....then go and talk about the chute....then go back to the desk. I'd finish with the desk before moving on.

I like the line idea to break things up.

I'd bold "alerting any intelligent creatures" or just "alerting creatures in Area ??" That seems important. You could also add a note to the map about it.

The bellrope/secret door/portcullis....wedging the door open. I feel like that whole paragraph could be shortened. It's mainly the second sentence in that paragraph I dont like...maybe its more clear with the map.

Good little mundane treasure--flint striker, etc.

It's funny, the little music box jumped out at me too. Jokes are good. But my first thought since we are talking Lore, is how that could be an example. Perhaps the music from the box opens a secret door somewhere, and a bard determining the lore of the music box would know that somehow due from clues near the secret door or whatever.

I'm with you...I'm a fan of lore and have butted heads with Mr. Lynch a few times about it. But I do agree it needs to be useful lore. Let's break it down:

Your first and second attempts--the first and third sentence is useful to me, the second sentence about the chain is unneeded.
The broken english does make it easier to scan. You are explaining to me why the chain mail is there....I'm guessing because you think its a weird place (and I agree), but the players would never know anyways....it's not useful or even flavorable.

This is why I find the 1st and 3rd sentences useful:

1. I might be able to throw in a great roleplay encounter with an escaping noble. Unless the nobles are no longer there--then I may not find it as useful. If there is more hints that this was a safe room, the party might think its safe to rest here as well...

2. The pilfered items...gah...so much I could do with it. This is brilliant. Some character wearing the ladybug brooch at the bar after adventuring?...great...some dude recognizes it as a piece of jewelry he gave his wife and let the roleplay begin.
Gold plated place setting?....confronted by guards, and no fork? oh noes...these guards aren't going to believe the party...

It is commented in the reviews that lore does not help DURING play...but those 2 sentences could be lumped into Future Play and it helps me make the world feel a little more alive by not just having another trinket for treasure--but a tool that helps with roleplaying or even future adventures (go forth and find the lost fork!).

I also like giving the bard something to do....to make your second lore sentence more helpful, you could of had the name Lars engraved in the armor. If the bard was successful with a lore check, I could talk a little about how the bard may of heard of Prince Lars who had to escape quickly....or whatever..useful? not really...BUT it does give me a tool to add some FLAVOR to the dungeon and not make it so dry and I always appreciate a little of that sprinkled in. Same with magic weapons where the bard determines a sword was owned by a warrior who lost it during a fight with Grovarik the dragon...it's just fluff...but it can be useful, fun, and entertaining (just like the joke items)...as some kids might recognize the blade and begin hero worshiping or whatever or Grovarik's sister wants revenge and is looking for someone with that blade.

As for setting/history or even boxed text....I have to argue with my partner once in awhile about different components. We bang heads because he is a 2e enthusiast and I prefer 2e--the mechanics, but hands down the 1e adventures (sandbox) rather than the long (railroad) stories or read text. He won in Of Beasts and Men where the druid goes off on a long story in the beginning, and in Oakvale the chieftain goes on with a long story....I won in Trollback Keep, where I summarized the gnome's boxed text, but still placed ALL the boxed text out of the way in an appendix. I should of done the same thing for Of Beasts.

And its not December...but October!! Ill need time to edit and layout.....time is ticking!! (no pressure)

 

[squeen]

Something I learned from Guy Fullerton...you can get rid of the word "will" like 98% of the time. Every time I see it now (at work or whatever) I try to get rid of it. I only see it a few times up above...
"Applying 100-lb or more on the bell rope causes it to budge..."

Good tip.

Your first paragraph is ordered wrong in my opinion. Bell rope is good, second sentence fine...third sentence should go to the very end. You mention the desk....then go and talk about the chute....then go back to the desk. I'd finish with the desk before moving on.

I agreed too. That's a bit of an over-edit jumble I made.

I like the line idea to break things up.

Me too. It felt like an "Eureka!" moment because it takes up no more space than a line break. So clean.

I'd bold "alerting any intelligent creatures" or just "alerting creatures in Area ??" That seems important. You could also add a note to the map about it.

I'd push back on this one a bit. The notion I have is that the bolded items in the first paragraph directly (and only) link to bolded paragraphs below that give greater detail. Its how the DM will cross-reference quickly. I was going to restrict myself to italics in those (sub)paragraphs for other important (sub-sub)items. Over-bolding willl make it useless as a locator.

The bellrope/secret door/portcullis....wedging the door open. I feel like that whole paragraph could be shortened. It's mainly the second sentence in that paragraph I dont like...maybe its more clear with the map.

Yup. Still cumbersome.

...
I'm with you...I'm a fan of lore and have butted heads with Mr. Lynch a few times about it. But I do agree it needs to be useful lore. Let's break it down:

Your first and second attempts--the first and third sentence is useful to me, the second sentence about the chain is unneeded.
The broken english does make it easier to scan. You are explaining to me why the chain mail is there....I'm guessing because you think its a weird place (and I agree), but the players would never know anyways....it's not useful or even flavorable.
...
I also like giving the bard something to do....to make your second lore sentence more helpful, you could of had the name Lars engraved in the armor.

The problem here is that is text (heck the whole place) is extremely context specific to my home campaign. I decided to make no attempt to neuter it (and then broke that rule---see below). The character of Lars is a MAJOR NPC villian whose been dead for many years of game-time and real-time. But my players are way keyed in on anything he ever did---he was a Prime Mover of the setting.

The ironic bit is that the elfin-chain in the home campaign was actually a gift from the Dwarven King to Lars...AND AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN IT HAD HIS NAME ENGRAVED IN IT! I dumbed it down for the version I posted here, because the backstory (Lore!) was too long. The PC had recovered in a valley many leagues away where it sat those 18 years in a vault...never delivered to the royal family because the Dwarven City and it's outposts had fallen to one of the same enemies that is now targeting the human realm. It was actually Marvello (a forgien agent) who shoved it in the oil-cask, after he drugged/striped/kidnapped our PC-thief before stashing his stuff here. The sad truth is I am only now getting around to writing this whole complex beneath the Palace up because they went looking for that darn mail shirt! (50+ rooms---I'm a lunatic!)

And its not December...but October!! Ill need time to edit and layout.....time is ticking!! (no pressure)

Yeah. Thanks for that. And here's me working on something unrelated!

 

[squeen]

Here it is...the not-at-all anticipated...version 3 of the most over-produced BORING ROOM ever posted to this forum.

Of note: I reordered the supporting paragraphs to be strictly in the order they first appear (above the horizontal divider).

Seriously, though...I've learned a good bit from these attempts.
Thanks all for the great feedback.

 

[gandalf_scion]

Squeen

Good show! I like the line that separates the read aloud from the "confidential" information, easier than a box, more noticeable than italics.

One thing did strike me as incongruous though.

“and causing erratic showers of dust to sparkle in the damp air.”

Yes, you could have dust in a damp room, but we usually associate dust - especially in the air - with dryness? You might drop that clause or change "damp" to dry?

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Here's how I would write the entry. You'll notice I've pulled the treasures from the body of the text and appended them to the end of the entry - I do this so the DM can more easily identify the valuables for when the players inevitably ask "how much was that dragon-headed flint striker worth?" or whatever. I'd do the same for encounters, keeping that stuff separate from the descriptions. I've also condensed the writing by combining adjectives and abbreviating descriptions (like the bellrope weight thing - players are just going to yank it anyway, no point in bring weights into the mix. Same with the secret door mechanics - players won't see a portcullis, so there's no point in mentioning it). I find this format easier to scan and use at the table. The obvious stuff is separated from the non-obvious stuff; both in the room description (above vs below the line) as well as it pertains to specific room items (non-obvious/hidden stuff are bulleted items, otherwise the rest is obvious at a glance).



The ceiling of this dusty room is 15' tall, and a thick bellrope hangs down from the middle. A rectangular chute is set at waist height in the brickwork of the EAST wall. Also present is a writing desk upon which is set an extinguished hooded lantern, and a stubby wine cask sits in the corner nearby. A high, narrow window casts light across the writing desk during daylight hours, while dust motes flit about the air.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On closer inspection, footprints in the dust show activity around the bellrope, the writing desk, and the WEST wall (boot prints visible on the wall).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bellrope:
- Pulling at least 6 feet unlocks the secret door in the WEST wall; this causes a loud mechanical noise which alerts creatures in L.7.5. The door can then be opened with a strong push or kick.

Chute: narrow and claustrophobic crawlway.
- Leads to Area L.7.2.

Writing Desk: delicate cherrywood decorated with frolicking forest creatures.
- The desk is worth 100gp and weighs 150lbs.
- Unlocked drawers hold TREASURE[1].
- Hidden compartment (can be opened by a thief, or successful 2d12 Intelligence check): sliding panels hide hollow cavity in desk; contains TREASURE[2].

Wine Cask: sealed, long-handled brass ladle sits nearby.
- Contains lamp oil (168 pints); stowed in the oil is TREASURE[3]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TREASURE
[1] Writing supplies (2gp); silver flint striker in the shape of a dragon's head (5gp)
[2] 20pp in coins; platinum and ruby ladybug broach set (250gp); gold plated place-setting (no fork, 15gp); ivory hairbrush (20gp); and silver wind-up music box with animated fish that plays the theme to "Jaws" (75gp).
[3] Chain mail tunic (elvish chain mail) - the name "Lars" is engraved beneath the collar.

 

[bryce0lynch]

There is no correct way, but lots of incorrect ways.
As an exercise in procrastination, I have rewritten the rewrite of the rewrite. I have kept your treasure formatting, though I'm not sure I believe in it. In particular, I think something magical is lost by the moving of treasure #3 to the "footnoted" section. The writing seems more magical in Squeens version, for that item. I attempted to merge the two.


The ceiling of this dusty room is 15' tall, and a thick bellrope hangs down from the middle. A rectangular chute is set at waist height in the brickwork of the EAST wall. A writing desk has an an extinguished hooded lantern, and a stubby wine cask sits in the corner. A high, narrow window casts light across the writing desk during daylight hours, while dust motes flit about the air.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Footprints in the dust show activity around the bellrope, the writing desk, and the WEST wall (boot prints visible on the wall).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bellrope: Pulling at least 6 feet unlocks the secret door in the WEST wall; this causes a loud mechanical noise which alerts creatures in L.7.5. The door can then be opened with a strong push or kick.

Chute: narrow and claustrophobic crawlway - leads to Area L.7.2.

Writing Desk: delicate cherrywood decorated with frolicking forest creatures. The desk is worth 100gp and weighs 150lbs.
- unlocked drawers hold writing supplies: TREASURE[1].
- Hidden compartment (can be opened by a thief, or successful 2d12 Intelligence check): sliding panels hide hollow cavity in desk; contains valuables: TREASURE[2].

Wine Cask: sealed, long-handled brass ladle sits nearby. Contains lamp oil (168 pints) stowed in the oil is a lost tunic of elvish chainmail, TREASURE[3]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TREASURE
[1] Writing supplies (2gp); silver flint striker in the shape of a dragon's head (5gp)
[2] 20pp in coins; platinum and ruby ladybug broach set (250gp); gold plated place-setting (no fork, 15gp); ivory hairbrush (20gp); and silver wind-up music box with animated fish that plays the theme to "Jaws" (75gp).
[3] Chain mail tunic (elvish chain mail) - the name "Lars" is engraved beneath the collar.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

The writing seems more magical in Squeens version, for that item. I attempted to merge the two.

Do you want easy-reference, DM-useable writing, or do you want "magical writing" which the players will not be privy to?

For instance, I see you've "unbulleted" the destination of the chute, merging it with the description of the chute, but the reason they were separated is because one is visible at a glance while the other is discoverable only if the players actually interact with the chute. I suppose a case could be made that you save yourself a line break by merging the two points, but if you expect to keep the visible/exploratory factoids separate from one-another, then this change would go against the stylesheet of the entry system. I do concede that your changes to condense the room description even further, and to add "writing supplies" and "contains valuables" to the drawer is a good call (and generally how I tend to do my own entries).

The way I see it, flowery language has two uses:
1) In read-aloud, to convey the sense/ambience/whatever to the players; or
2) To inspire the DM (which I'd argue by the prescriptive, specific contents of this room, the DM is not expected to improvise).

If you're writing "magically" for a DM, it's either because there's a gap he needs to be inspired to fill in, or because you're writing modules to be read instead of used. I can't see how it does anything but clutter the text in any other situation.

 

[squeen]

Oops! Forgot to press "POST" button on this.

One thing did strike me as incongruous though.

“and causing erratic showers of dust to sparkle in the damp air.”

Yes, you could have dust in a damp room, but we usually associate dust - especially in the air - with dryness? You might drop that clause or change "damp" to dry?

Yeah...I struggled with that. The dust comes from above (because it's right below the Gatehouse and soldiers are walking above the ceiling...AND the dust provides clues if the party are paying attention.

BUT...the sewers are damp.

I think I like DP version the best and will go with some version of "dust motes".

@DP: Your layout certainty is clear, but I'm a data compression nut, I like to have 5-6 entries per page and that would eat up too much space I think for my tastes. (Although Bryce poo-poo'ed the "On closer inspection" clause as if/then.)

Good lord! Can you imagine doing this kind of collaborative optimization on hundreds of keyed areas---let alone the surrounding materials. It would take months. Probably why most published stuff is junk.

Again. Great ideas here.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

@DP: Your layout certainty is clear, but I'm a data compression nut, I like to have 5-6 entries per page and that would eat up too much space I think for my tastes.

This format is likely still shorter than your version 3 one. You'd probably have to see it written out and compared side-by-side. I do a comparable format in my own writing, and it fits about 5 rooms to a page (obviously room-dependent) with a size 12 font and big headers.

 

[Malrex]

Good lord! Can you imagine doing this kind of collaborative optimization on hundreds of keyed areas---let alone the surrounding materials. It would take months.

Yes...yes I can. Moving towards 3 years now...

 

[squeen]

My last attempt---honest!---though its all been good fun.

@Bryce: Amen on "...lots of incorrect ways..."!

Another nit: I'm not sure I would allow myself to use compass directions in the "factual" (above line) description section. Maybe that's just parenthetical info for the DM's eyes only. Dunno.

Here now, trying (maybe too hard?) this time to hit that elusive "evocative" mark.
(But heck! I'll take "magical" as a consolation prize. )

This format is likely still shorter than your version 3 one. You'd probably have to see it written out and compared side-by-side. I do a comparable format in my own writing, and it fits about 5 rooms to a page (obviously room-dependent) with a size 12 font and big headers.

Possibly. Especially with your distilled prose.

Also, with regards to formats. Many times in my life I have established rigid frameworks into which I latter attempt to pour content. More often than not, that framework becomes a straight-jacket (or noose) as it goobles up resources or demands more and more of my attention to make square pegs fit into it. For that reason, I'm fairly unwilling to ever stray too far away from traditional paragraphs. It's also why I tread very lightly into the realm of Boxes and Slots (and am so childishly please by the elegance of a single horizontal line).

Even the debatable "LORE" entry will be banished from existence by me at nearly every opportunity.

Something to consider as we try Building the Perfect Beast.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

You ought to consider going from "A spent hooded lantern rests atop a cherry-wood writing desk decorated..." to "Writing desk: holds a spent hooded lantern, made of cherry-wood, decorated with....". It is easier to scan that way - otherwise I have to read through several whole sentences to find the object I'm looking for, especially because the font you're using doesn't seem to differentiate bolded text as clearly as some other fonts do.

It also serves to parse out the room key into more digestible, compartmentalized "chunks". All the writing desk stuff can be found under "Writing desk:", all the dust-related stuff can be found under "Dust:", etc. Otherwise I find myself finding out stuff about the secret door by reading through the both the dust entry and the bellrope entry, which means I'm basically reading the whole key top-to-bottom just to find information about one specific part of the room.

Also, your bolded dust entry in the description (that is, what the players will hear about dust) is limited only to dust in the air - a good bit of imagery, but it doesn't convey that there is dust all over the floor in which tracks can be spotted, or dust on the walls in the shape of old bootprints. In the mind of the players, the dust in this room exists only in the form of airborne motes, because that's all they've been told, so they are less likely to give it any further thought.

 

[squeen]

You ought to consider going from "A spent hooded lantern rests atop a cherry-wood writing desk decorated..." to "Writing desk: holds a spent hooded lantern, made of cherry-wood, decorated with....". It is easier to scan that way - otherwise I have to read through several whole sentences to find the object I'm looking for, especially because the font you're using doesn't seem to differentiate bolded text as clearly as some other fonts do

Agreed. That would probably be easier on the eye and simpiler to cross-reference (e.g. see also secret door).

 

[squeen]

Oh, dear friends...is THIS what you would have of me?