DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Creative shit.
Fun shit.
Smart shit.
The three elements of good adventure design.
Fun shit.
Smart shit.
The three elements of good adventure design.
Bryce said...
- Thread starter squeen
- Start date
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
This was more of an attempt to categorize the elements of adventure design, not writing advice per se.
Want to fix your writing shortcomings? You need to write more (content, not long-ass blog posts), and most importantly, you need to post your work for criticism.
Writing is one of those interesting fields where you're never able to effectively measure the quality of your own work because you are always going to be writing for an audience, not yourself... so you need an audience to tell you how good or bad your writing is. Then you incorporate the criticism into your own writing to make it better.
I think your biggest problem squeen is that you're a glutton for theory. You consume and consume whatever musings you can on the subject of writing, but like with eating food, getting fat doesn't make you into a good chef, you know? Bryce's opinions on adventure design won't fix your shortcomings. You need to start putting in the work, but most importantly, you need to expose the work to scrutiny, or you'll forever be operating in the mindset that what you're doing is right when it could very well be wrong, no matter how many reviews and blog posts you've combed through.
Want to fix your writing shortcomings? You need to write more (content, not long-ass blog posts), and most importantly, you need to post your work for criticism.
Writing is one of those interesting fields where you're never able to effectively measure the quality of your own work because you are always going to be writing for an audience, not yourself... so you need an audience to tell you how good or bad your writing is. Then you incorporate the criticism into your own writing to make it better.
I think your biggest problem squeen is that you're a glutton for theory. You consume and consume whatever musings you can on the subject of writing, but like with eating food, getting fat doesn't make you into a good chef, you know? Bryce's opinions on adventure design won't fix your shortcomings. You need to start putting in the work, but most importantly, you need to expose the work to scrutiny, or you'll forever be operating in the mindset that what you're doing is right when it could very well be wrong, no matter how many reviews and blog posts you've combed through.
GAH!! A priori truth sir!
Now, about the teethe in that horses mouth ...
Ug, I'm 3 whiskeys in at 4:30.
Yeah, Squeen, write more and post.
We've covered how I want my life to be that subway car ten seconds in, right?
I csant help it!
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Why not go back to one of the originals?
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
No. At the moment my biggest problem is that I pressed "play" on the above video links and can't un-see them. Gah!
In my own defense, posts don't look so long sitting in front of workstations with a 30" monitors at 4K resolution---if I used phones, tablets, and other toys/gadgets I might have a different opinion. Lucky for y'all I haven't been too verbose recently. (Running out of things to say?) But, you know the drill...the more you complain....
Here we go.
On the topic at hand (if I can stay focused), I'll admit to a love of theory---in all aspects of human knowledge, not just hobby/D&D writing. But rather than a fetish, I'll argue it's a natural part of the learning process. I'm going to drone on about that a bit now, so feel free to skip the rest of this post is your interest or attention span is limited.
In academics--heck in your life---you start out by consuming a lot of what's already been done---learning by example. Like a small child, I went through that stage for my D&D renaissance---snapping up everything considered "the Best" examples of good adventures. Bryce's reviews were a huge resource for that, and I am indebted to him for publishing (free!) that massive body of work. Honestly, we need to all take a moment every now and then to appreciate the scope of what he has done. It's a modern wonder. Efforts like this blog are usually fleeting. He's been at it for over a decade! (Support the man's Patreon!) Like a child I just consumed. Reading/buying to see what worked, and even to see what didn't. I wasn't running ANY OF IT at the table (that was all self-generated), and soon had a massive PDF and print pile that dwarfed any practical need. However, focused on honing my own creativity and documentation, I felt it was Step One of a road to somewhere...where it still to be determined.
Aside the First: I follow nearly the same process when doing scientific research---find out what's been discovered over the ages. A common phrase is, "There's no use reinventing the wheel.", which I kind of dislike. First off, as a novice, you kind of DO need to rebuild the wheel to get intellectual ownership during the creation process---to really understand why a wheel and not something else. You learn by copying, but not by blindly copying. You need to take a guided mental tour of the pitfalls the original inventor went through in order to understand something new and foreign. With regard to something I know a bit about, I've said to my co-workers, "Every generation needs to build it's own simulation." when they ask why the younger engineers keep wanting to throw away what's already been done and start from scratch. It's about ownership. It's how we as human beings come to knowledge.
Next, you see to organize that massive influx of data---the hundreds of examples. Sort and categorize. (OD&D, 1e, 2e...etc.) Separate the wheat from the chaff. Follow the thread(s) of what worked through time, and understand how the practioning of the art evoluved. Avoid the dead-ends (4e!). That's where the theory comes in. It takes a bit of knack to sort through accumulated human knowledge, see it's arc of creation, and sort it into "schools of thought", or arch-typical examples of a particular style. I am not a glutton for theory, per se...but I'm not afraid of it either. I am a glutton for knowledge...and I do love learning new things and mastering new skills. In the learning process, it actually much easier to catch-up to the "leading edge" than it is to advance it (or even the less lofty goal of exhibiting journeyman competence). Again, at the University, you learn theory before you go out in the real-world and try to practice it.
Aside the Second: When I was fresh out of Undergraduate studies, I was put in charge of teams of non-degreed technicians. Men (and a very small number of women) who were decades my senior, with way more experience in doing things---and me a 22-year-old engineer, fresh out. It felt like the whole Enlisted vs. Officer thing from the military. There was a lot of good natured kidding from them (and some not) whenever I or my fellow young engineers showed ignorance of standard operating procedures. Sometimes we would pick up tools and try to help the technicians out when we were stuck traveling and got bored. God forbid an engineer drop something or made a mistake! The technicians never let us live it down. You developed thick skin. Here's the thing that made such a strong impression on me though. As young and fresh as I was, if and when something went wrong---when the project started going off the rails---at moments of real risk, men who were in their 40's and 50's, even the one's who resented me, would turn to ask what to do. Seemed crazy. BUT...I was the trained engineer. I held the reigns (like it or not) of responsibility. It was up to me to make the call. Lacking experience, all I had to fall back on was THEORY. What I had learned in school. There were no examples to copy, this was real-life, and I had to own my knowledge and make decisions. Simple as that. So, yeah, I have a soft-spot for theory. It can save your butt.
Asides over, back to learning...
Y'all (DP & Bryce), are right: at some point you need to stop cutting bait and fish (already!). That's what you'd like, and it is what I plan to do with my Footprints submission later this year. Put something out there for public scrutiny. Break a few clay pots in the learning process. The problem with doing that now is that with all that examples and theory I've absorbed I know---without feedback---that my work is not ready. Still too flawed. First I need to fix the known problems, before the unknowns.
The projects I work on typically take several years...some of them over a decade. What makes me well suited for my job is not my brilliance, but a very long attention span. Incremental progress is it's own reward. And even in my private D&D scribbling for the home campaign, I can see a progression. Byrce-ian Theory has labeled for me some of the Common Pitfalls, and I am getting better at avoiding them. So, with regards to everything---work or hobbies---it's when I feel it's "ready", but no sooner. Sorry.
Hang in there, nearly finished with this tidy little essay (not so long---all fits on my screen). The real question for me is WHY. Why publish at all? Why write? Why do I come to this warm little corner of bleak cyberspace? What is that elusive thing that Bryce is chasing and why do I want to join in on the Hunt?
Well...that will have to wait for another day. The FC Barcelona game is on now! Viva Barca!
Cheers.
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DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
I get the sentiment, I really do, but this is what the psychologists would call "big-ass excuses". You've literally written an essay about how you're not ready to move up to the next level of writing yet.
What projects you have on the go and what job experiences you've had in the past are not reasons to keep consuming theory at the expense of publications. You're psyching yourself out. Instead of learning ways to get better, you're learning all the imaginary ways you're going wrong. As my hick cousins from the Valley would say: "Yer revving's just diggin' that Skidoo deeper into the snow there, bud". Writing is a process of phases - writes and re-writes, trial and error. You get better at it this way.
If you want to go into the whole schooling example of things, how many tests have you studied for, swore up and down you know everything about, and then still saw a few wrong answers when you got your copy back from the teacher? We all have. But the thing is, you only knew what the errors and problems were after you got the test reviewed by someone else. You studied your ass off for that test and there's still wrong answers to be found. Why? Because knowledge is vast... almost infinite. You studied the vast pool of knowledge, but there's only so much you can absorb and retain. The test however was specific; it only required knowing a small part of the great pool of overall knowledge. Imagine how much better your test score would be if you had a copy of the test beforehand so you knew exactly what knowledge you needed to focus on. Imagine how perfect your marks would be if you could do the test and submit it early, just to have the teacher mark it and give it back and tell you to make changes and re-submit it. You'd have perfect test scores every time, right? So why do you expect any less from your writing?
This forum is not a gift of information. Information can be found anywhere. Most of the important takeaways from Bryce are already in his reviews, not in the semi-coherent, disjointed inner-monologue he throws up on this forum. No this forum is a gift of review. You can get feedback from many relevant eyes here. That is invaluable to writing, but instead of taking advantage of the rare opportunity here, you've just spinning the tread and digging yourself deeper into the snow.
Sorry for the "reality check" nature of this post, but you know... reality check!
Much love.
What projects you have on the go and what job experiences you've had in the past are not reasons to keep consuming theory at the expense of publications. You're psyching yourself out. Instead of learning ways to get better, you're learning all the imaginary ways you're going wrong. As my hick cousins from the Valley would say: "Yer revving's just diggin' that Skidoo deeper into the snow there, bud". Writing is a process of phases - writes and re-writes, trial and error. You get better at it this way.
If you want to go into the whole schooling example of things, how many tests have you studied for, swore up and down you know everything about, and then still saw a few wrong answers when you got your copy back from the teacher? We all have. But the thing is, you only knew what the errors and problems were after you got the test reviewed by someone else. You studied your ass off for that test and there's still wrong answers to be found. Why? Because knowledge is vast... almost infinite. You studied the vast pool of knowledge, but there's only so much you can absorb and retain. The test however was specific; it only required knowing a small part of the great pool of overall knowledge. Imagine how much better your test score would be if you had a copy of the test beforehand so you knew exactly what knowledge you needed to focus on. Imagine how perfect your marks would be if you could do the test and submit it early, just to have the teacher mark it and give it back and tell you to make changes and re-submit it. You'd have perfect test scores every time, right? So why do you expect any less from your writing?
This forum is not a gift of information. Information can be found anywhere. Most of the important takeaways from Bryce are already in his reviews, not in the semi-coherent, disjointed inner-monologue he throws up on this forum. No this forum is a gift of review. You can get feedback from many relevant eyes here. That is invaluable to writing, but instead of taking advantage of the rare opportunity here, you've just spinning the tread and digging yourself deeper into the snow.
Sorry for the "reality check" nature of this post, but you know... reality check!
Much love.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Half-time. Barce up 3-0. Hat-trick by the Greatest Player to have ever played the game of football. We are fortunate.
Yes, these forums are a gift of peer review. And I will use them...in good time. (Speaking of which I need to get back to Malrex's Hideout product...)
I am writing. Mainly for myself and the home campaign, but also for the Footprints deadline. All is well. These posts take me 15-minutes and are recreational. Those efforts eat hours. Very different.
But where else are you going to get good theory? This thread is all about panning for gems in what Bryce is learning. Mind you HE'S the one learning mainly. He's the one digesting all that data...buying the products...churning out the reviews...not most of us. You'd be foolish not to listen to his attempts to explain what he's seeing.
Turning the tables: when are we going to see more of your work posted here?
Yes, these forums are a gift of peer review. And I will use them...in good time. (Speaking of which I need to get back to Malrex's Hideout product...)
I am writing. Mainly for myself and the home campaign, but also for the Footprints deadline. All is well. These posts take me 15-minutes and are recreational. Those efforts eat hours. Very different.
But where else are you going to get good theory? This thread is all about panning for gems in what Bryce is learning. Mind you HE'S the one learning mainly. He's the one digesting all that data...buying the products...churning out the reviews...not most of us. You'd be foolish not to listen to his attempts to explain what he's seeing.
Turning the tables: when are we going to see more of your work posted here?
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
Squeen Said:
No. At the moment my biggest problem is that I pressed "play" on the above video links and can't un-see them. Gah!
Squeen, I totally get it. The videos of all those lithe young men probably left you with body issues. Instead, here's the original, by Donna Summer (may she RIP) herself!
No. At the moment my biggest problem is that I pressed "play" on the above video links and can't un-see them. Gah!
Squeen, I totally get it. The videos of all those lithe young men probably left you with body issues. Instead, here's the original, by Donna Summer (may she RIP) herself!
TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
Not to dog-pile, but I agree with DP on this one about reading theory vs. making stuff. By the time anyone reaches the upper echelon of OSR sophistication that is the tenfootpole.org forums, they likely know more about Best Practises In Adventure Writing than 99% of folks out there. Time to show the world, eh?
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Seriously, you don't want to see my abs.
TerribleSorcery
Should be playing D&D instead
Then drop and gimme 20, soldier!
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
From The Tomb of Raven Darkmore
High-Level Adventures
High-Level Adventures
I think the take-away point here is that high-level adventures are not static like low-level exploratory adventures---except with higher HD monsters to fight---but instead should have a larger dynamic scope.Byrce said:
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Semi-related: today's review was officially the 150th tagging of "The Best"..
Bryce, you absolute slut.
Bryce, you absolute slut.
Mom! You said you wouldn't say stuff like that anymore!