"Rando" adventures

[The1True]

I may make the 'hallways' more permanent in the 'mop'

Are we talking about a sunken city with an enormous jellyfish hovering over it? The tentacles basically acting as a foil to three dimensional underwater movement as well as a randomizer for horizontal movement? Am I just jellyfish obsessed? (I managed to insert one in QBert 3D (weed is a hell of a drug...))
How large are the tiles on your map? Are they large city blocks or small clusters of rooms? The size of the area defines whether you need to map everything or not.

I ran out of time, but also wanted to throw in some procedural fun for the GM in Irradiated Paradox, so I left the dark beneath the mushroom mountains blank and made a randomizer for finding exits from the hexes. I laid down a few fixed points and left the rest up to the GM's imagination and a roll of the dice. Since then there's been some strong condemnation of random generation here (which is making my tone a little defensive). I could argue, but telling people that they're wrong for not-enjoying something would be stupid. It's just confusing to me since a number of hits on the Tenfootpole list include systems for random generation including Gargantua, Ynn, Krrshall, Underworld Kingdom; hell, even Barrowmaze has a barrow mound generator!

It's possible that the answer to my question lies somewhere between Barrowmaze and Highfell, because the tomb generator is fun in the first, but the blank ruins-crawl surrounding the wizards' towers on the Drifting Dungeon felt lazy in the last. The tomb generator allows the DM to add extra barrow mounds for PC's who want to spend extra time on the surface crawling around the moor. It's a bonus that adds detail and possible side stories to the adventure. The ruins crawl on the other hand gave me a rich encounter and hazard generator but no tools to describe the contents of the hex (and just general ruins or trees icons on the map) which is just going to punish explorers with encounters instead of rewarding them with discoveries.

So, I would suggest either a detailed map with a randomizer for exits, or, if the area is too large to be accurately mapped, a randomizer for the content of the area (as well as encounters, hazards and treasures) and its exits, OR a hybrid system with a number of fixed, mapped points in your otherwise unmapped area, a roster of 4-10 geomorphs for when exploring one of the blocks/squares/hexes requires tactical detail and a detailed procedural generator for the rest. You might add to that a subsystem that allows for simple resolution of quick transit through the area for goal-oriented players disinterested in getting bogged down in map-clearing.

Much as I agree with people here and particularly our host that it's great to have a plug'n play module where everything's ready to go at the GM's fingertips, some things are just to big or impractical to cram into a regular product. I don't think that that means they should be left out altogether!

 

[squeen]

It's possible that the answer to my question lies somewhere between Barrowmaze and Highfell, because the tomb generator is fun in the first, but the blank ruins-crawl surrounding the wizards' towers on the Drifting Dungeon felt lazy in the last.

I think @The1True makes a great point --- there is a line you don't want to cross. Random generation of interesting details is good (e.g. Melan's Noctural Table), but when it's utilized (overtly/obvious to players) to create large swaths of the world during the game (I'm not talking Tome of Adventure Design here), it breaks the verisimilitude and destroys significance. The emerging story arc (or in this case world-permanence) dies in its obvious meaninglessness. Rando, at it's worst, turns D&D into Candy Land---just roll folks, and we'll see what nutty thing happens.

There are quite a few processes in the real-world, that are best modeled as "random". These include things like defects in production, high-frequency sensor noise, environmental disturbances, etc. I think a (simulationist's?) guideline might be: would these things appear random to an observer in the (D&D) world? If so, then one might even take another moment to think: what should be it's observable distribution (e.g. 1-6 uniform, or 3d6 Gaussian/bell-curve), and then build your table appropriately. The rule-of-thumb is perhaps: "What would the PC observe?"---not "How does the DM do this?".

 

[Malrex]

Are we talking about a sunken city with an enormous jellyfish hovering over it? The tentacles basically acting as a foil to three dimensional underwater movement as well as a randomizer for horizontal movement? Am I just jellyfish obsessed? (I managed to insert one in QBert 3D (weed is a hell of a drug...))

Well damn, The1True gets it......yeah...we might be talking about an enormous, dead jellyfish..yes...not sure why I get so nervous talking about it in the open, but whatever. The jellyfish IS the dungeon. 2 levels inside the 'bell'--a normal dungeon type setting, and the third level--a vertical level full of moving tentacles with weird 'caverns' and things that have been trapped within for a long time--this was going to be the rando part. Walls that sting, walls that move around, walls that might entangle you for a bit, walls that open up into caverns, things within the tentacles....a dangerous environment. I wrote it over a year ago and had some people playtest it as well as my group--who didn't go down into Level 3--which is where my concern is. Go look up a picture of a Lion's Mane jellyfish. Tell me how the hell it's supposed to have permanent hallways when underwater with moving currents...??? But will go back to the drawing board for that level.

Hiring a artist/mapper for this project as I felt my maps were a bit boring for this project. It's frustrating when you have something in your head, but you can't present it the way you want. Finally just received his version of the surface yesterday from Courtney Campbell, which isn't done yet, but I think it looks pretty cool and he captured the scene I had in my head. Captures the adventure hook---on your way to the City of Vermilion, your ship and the 2 pirates that were chasing you just got breached by this thing right before violent combat. Someone needs to go inside and figure out how to deflate this thing going down into one of those 3 cave like openings...and the pirates think sending your level 2-4 pansy asses down in there is a good idea...or you can of course just fight em and see if you survive...but you will still be stuck on this damn thing.

 

[squeen]

Looks ans sounds AWESOME. Randomness for passages that are truly dynamical and "random" is totally appropriate. The little islands of interest inside should probably not be randomly generated, just randomly encounter.

Oh! And you should be nervous, 'cause now I'm gonna steal it and publish it before you can.
(But will probably need some of your help...)

 

[Malrex]

Thanks squeen. Exactly for the little islands of interest--didn't randomly generate, but can randomly encounter. Got about 7 or 8 places/caverns written out. But going to tweak this level a bit after this whole thread. Might include an optional/random method to play the level in an appendix.

 

[Beoric]

I think the human brain is wired to find patterns, and we become uncomfortable if we don't see them, or if something doesn't fit the model we have constructed for ourselves. Where randomness defines the structure (so that there essentially is no structure), or creates results that are incongruent with the established structure, it can interfere with the "shared storytelling" that is D&D, and you can end up with weird appendixes like the Bombadil section of LotR p).

The jellyfish background establishes a structure and expectations about how that environment operate, as long as they are known or discoverable. So as long as the randomness is constrained by that structure in a predictable way, it will work. I think I said something similar when we were talking about it like is was a mop (and I would have come up with different suggestions had I known it was a jellyfish).

It is why random monsters tables usually work in a dungeon, where we expect creatures to be moving around; but don't always scale in overland adventures, where it might strain player's expectations if they have to fight their way along a patrolled road between population centers, and too-frequent encounters over a period of weeks of travel can interfere with the unconscious narrative expectations of the players and DM.

 

[The1True]

not sure why I get so nervous talking about it

Hey man, ideas is all we've got! I locked some key conversations behind the admin section over at GTC and now I can't create links to them to open up discussions over here. I was too paranoid about my precious ideas!
Anyway, it looks like you need to create a procedural maze for the PC's to navigate in order to locate the set encounters you've created for the guts. Possibly consider creating mechanics so that smart/lucky/skilled characters can boost their chances to locate areas of key interest. That would give them agency over the randomness.
So yeah, you're so getting my kickstarter cash when you reboot this puppy.

 

[Malrex]

Hey man, ideas is all we've got! I locked some key conversations behind the admin section over at GTC and now I can't create links to them to open up discussions over here. I was too paranoid about my precious ideas!
Anyway, it looks like you need to create a procedural maze for the PC's to navigate in order to locate the set encounters you've created for the guts. Possibly consider creating mechanics so that smart/lucky/skilled characters can boost their chances to locate areas of key interest. That would give them agency over the randomness.
So yeah, you're so getting my kickstarter cash when you reboot this puppy.

"My preciousssss"--Gollum
Ya, I get paranoid too, lol..but I realized I wasn't having as much fun talking about a mop...and then I got a 'who cares' wild hair.

I'm focused on Palace so it will be a while for this one.

Beoric's post and 1True's bolded line...gives me some stuff to ponder though. I think with some tweaks it could be workable, but will need to think on it.

 

[squeen]

Maybe add a few landmarks so they know when they're on a particular path prior to arrival.

 

[The1True]

Maybe add a few landmarks so they know when they're on a particular path prior to arrival.

Colour-code regions of tentacles?

 

[Malrex]

Hmm...exactly one year later from the last comment, but finally:
Voyages on the Zontani Sea
2 adventures now and also potentially 4 additional adventures if stretch goals are met but I suck at advertising so we will see. One is getting completed by the beloved Grutzi. I think I get more done when I don't visit forums as much.

 

[EOTB]

I am in on the advance notice for live!

 

[The1True]

Looking forward to this. Glad you got right back on that City of Vermillion horse!

 

[Beoric]

@Malrex, I have a question about the 5e conversion. When you say it is " as true to that system as possible", does that mean it has also been converted to a 5e difficulty aesthetic?

For instance, if you were to convert a trap to 5e, is it as difficult to detect for a 5e character under the 5e rules as it was for an OSE character under the OSE rules? And just as relatively deadly? Or does it follow ordinary 5e design rules respecting how difficult and deadly it is?

 

[Malrex]

@Malrex, I have a question about the 5e conversion. When you say it is " as true to that system as possible", does that mean it has also been converted to a 5e difficulty aesthetic?

For instance, if you were to convert a trap to 5e, is it as difficult to detect for a 5e character under the 5e rules as it was for an OSE character under the OSE rules? And just as relatively deadly? Or does it follow ordinary 5e design rules respecting how difficult and deadly it is?

Hey Beoric...I don't play 5e at all...so I hired someone who does play 5e but not OSR related material--to convert it. Basically gave them the adventure and told them to change whatever they needed too to make it 5e playable. So to answer your question, I'm assuming it follows "ordinary 5e design rules respecting how difficult and deadly it is."
Here's a room with somewhat of a trap:
6. Breach: Wood splinters float on briny water that fills this chamber 3’ deep. Shards of wood jut out of the ceiling and walls, an oozing puss dribbling from the wounds. A gash in the ceiling sucks the air from the chamber creating watery ripples and a low howling sound. A floating keg jostles its way around the chamber.

• The gash is 8’ up the northern wall near the ceiling and exits the jellyfish, creating air bubbles outside. The gash narrows to 1’ wide before exiting.
• The keg holds tannin from the rare Boraku Tree found in the southern jungles of Jhurlmek, mixed with common Amaranth grain phyto-chemicals. The combination, called Boranth, explodes upon impact or when exposed to air. When detonated, a keg of Boranth causes 3d6 fire damage and knocks creatures prone within 15’, or half as much damage and no prone condition on a successful DC 12 Dexterity saving throw. Alchemists are interested in such a concoction willing to pay 120 gp for the keg, as only the Sholoh tribes of Jhurlmek know the recipe.
• Care must be taken to remove the waxed cork—removal by hammer may cause it to explode. Exploding the keg near the gash expands the tear and the jellyfish submerges enough to free ships after two full days. Or it may effectively create a hole in a ship, sinking it in 1d4+2 hours.

Hope that answers your question...

 

[The1True]

Did 1e trap difficulty even go up? I thought the Thief's % just got better and better...

 

[Beoric]

Hey Beoric...I don't play 5e at all...so I hired someone who does play 5e but not OSR related material--to convert it. Basically gave them the adventure and told them to change whatever they needed too to make it 5e playable. So to answer your question, I'm assuming it follows "ordinary 5e design rules respecting how difficult and deadly it is."
Here's a room with somewhat of a trap:
6. Breach: Wood splinters float on briny water that fills this chamber 3’ deep. Shards of wood jut out of the ceiling and walls, an oozing puss dribbling from the wounds. A gash in the ceiling sucks the air from the chamber creating watery ripples and a low howling sound. A floating keg jostles its way around the chamber.

• The gash is 8’ up the northern wall near the ceiling and exits the jellyfish, creating air bubbles outside. The gash narrows to 1’ wide before exiting.
• The keg holds tannin from the rare Boraku Tree found in the southern jungles of Jhurlmek, mixed with common Amaranth grain phyto-chemicals. The combination, called Boranth, explodes upon impact or when exposed to air. When detonated, a keg of Boranth causes 3d6 fire damage and knocks creatures prone within 15’, or half as much damage and no prone condition on a successful DC 12 Dexterity saving throw. Alchemists are interested in such a concoction willing to pay 120 gp for the keg, as only the Sholoh tribes of Jhurlmek know the recipe.
• Care must be taken to remove the waxed cork—removal by hammer may cause it to explode. Exploding the keg near the gash expands the tear and the jellyfish submerges enough to free ships after two full days. Or it may effectively create a hole in a ship, sinking it in 1d4+2 hours.

Hope that answers your question...

It does, thanks. I don't know 5e that well yet, so I can't comment on the damage expression, but a DC 12 saving throw is going to require a d20 roll of 10 to save for your average 5e level 1 character; the save would be much harder in earlier editions. As @PrinceofNothing pointed out to me once, you probably get closer to the designer's intent if you buy the version for the system it was designed for.

Did 1e trap difficulty even go up? I thought the Thief's % just got better and better...

It is harder at low level and gets easier at high level, because while the difficulty of the locks could progress in the early editions, I am not sure that I have ever seen it. But at low level it is much worse in 1e - 25% change at 1st and 33% at 3rd, and you need a 17 dex to get even a 5% bump. That is way lower than your chances in later editions, I think.

 

[Osrnoob]

Nah poor Thief got worse. Until the Cyclopedia
Then darkness
My old friend
SAD

 

[EOTB]

Systemically? No, there wasn't a procedure or spread of trap difficulty. But I know I've seen traps in adventure text indicating the thief's chance was reduced over baseline, to find and/or disarm it.

Granted it wasn't common for someone to do this. And I'm OK with that really.

 

[The1True]

Systemically? No, there wasn't a procedure or spread of trap difficulty. But I know I've seen traps in adventure text indicating the thief's chance was reduced over baseline, to find and/or disarm it.

Granted it wasn't common for someone to do this. And I'm OK with that really.

Yeah, I've definitely seen that. I think the Bloodstone adventures cranked up trap difficulties to make them challenging for high level thieves (instead of the reverse). edit- Or I should say, they reduced the Thief's probabilities as a means of increasing trap difficulty...