The state of Post-OSR content
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squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I had a quick look at the 3e unarmed combat rules, they are a lot more complicated than the 4e rules and give specific rules for a lot of corner cases that 4e would expect the DM to improvise.
My reading of both sets of rules is they include a lot of actions that are pretty ineffective, and certainly not worth giving up your attack for the round. Feinting is a good example: giving up your attack this round for a chance at having a better chance of hitting next round doesn't make much sense. "Aid another" is similar in that you are giving up an attack to provide a buddy with a minor buff on his next attack; the increase to his DPR is nowhere near what you are giving up for your DPR (although it would make tons of sense if you had a bunch of low level men at arms, 1e style, who have little chance of hitting on their own).
But barring the use of men at arms, nobody with experience uses those options, so they may as well not exist. A lot were dropped between 3e and 4e, I expect because they weren't getting used (in which case they were being dropped because of perceived popularity, not identification of the root problem).
I note in 4e one of the issues @squeen is concerned with - effectiveness of large numbers of low level characters fighting a high level opponent - is avoided because of the nature of 4e monster design (for minions and swarms in particular). I'm not sure if 5e's bounded accuracy also addresses that problem, or if it has brought the problem back.
I also note that AC has no impact on grappling in 4e (and from what I read, 3e as well), although shield use can be of benefit against certain types of unarmed attacks. Wearing heavy armor and shields can make it harder to escape a grapple, because of the impact on athletic and acrobatic skills.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
THERE it is...
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
No, admittedly 5e hasn't quite mastered the ramifications of action economy. Their best addition to address the issue is the use of Legendary Actions (actions that can be taken as interruptions between turns on the initiative order) by high level monsters. Bounded accuracy mainly serves to cut down on modifier bloat that was prevalent in 3/4e (you don't see much "+32 to hit against an AC of 28" in 5e because of bounded accuracy).
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Okay, I just went and read up on bounded accuracy and it made me sad. I guess the munchkin in me likes my +32 to hit that dragon with the 43 AC... As if a +3 weapon is artifact-grade. gtfo. boooo
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
I know! A +2 weapon is artifact-grade! Bah! The fools.
The Heretic
Should be playing D&D instead
I've seen Aid Another used by PCs, albeit rarely. It's used in those cases where one PC doesn't have an attack that can penetrate the monster's DR, so they use Aid Another to help the PCs who can hurt the monster.
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Yeah we've done that when there's only one guy with a weapon with the necessary enchantment to get through the monster's DR like Good Aligned or Cold Wrought Iron or Silver or whatever.
squeen
8, 8, I forget what is for
Bringing this thread back to the original topic --- and dovetailing it with the taxonomy of @Pseudoephedrine, I have come to a realization.
When we started this forum, I thought the OSR was a neat concept --- returning to the style-of-play advocated by pre-1979 Gygax, and that I experienced in my youth as a player and have played the better part of this last decade.
I also love the idea of good ideas being recycled like they are in music and art and fashion. Classics being timeless.
Upon discovering that the OSR seems to be focused as something more artsy, rule-moding, and a synthesis of old+new---the realization that's dawning on me is that I have mentally distanced myself from folks like Gus L, Patrick Stewart, Ben L., etc. who seems to be playing a different sort of game than I imagined they were. Like I said in the post that reignited this thread, I have mentally come home to AD&D --- which is surprisingly not a part of the OSR (anymore?), even though OSRIC was at the heart of the retro-clone genesis.
I no longer identify** with the OSR---and I finally understand why folks like Melan and EOTB pronounced is "dead". Whereas that once seem a minor tragedy, I find I no longer care.
Weird.
(** Is "self-identify" a totally redundant compound word?)
When we started this forum, I thought the OSR was a neat concept --- returning to the style-of-play advocated by pre-1979 Gygax, and that I experienced in my youth as a player and have played the better part of this last decade.
I also love the idea of good ideas being recycled like they are in music and art and fashion. Classics being timeless.
Upon discovering that the OSR seems to be focused as something more artsy, rule-moding, and a synthesis of old+new---the realization that's dawning on me is that I have mentally distanced myself from folks like Gus L, Patrick Stewart, Ben L., etc. who seems to be playing a different sort of game than I imagined they were. Like I said in the post that reignited this thread, I have mentally come home to AD&D --- which is surprisingly not a part of the OSR (anymore?), even though OSRIC was at the heart of the retro-clone genesis.
I no longer identify** with the OSR---and I finally understand why folks like Melan and EOTB pronounced is "dead". Whereas that once seem a minor tragedy, I find I no longer care.
Weird.
(** Is "self-identify" a totally redundant compound word?)
DangerousPuhson
Should be playing D&D instead
Back in my day, you could ride the trolley into town to see a picture show for a nickle, and still have change left over to buy a newspaper and a chocolate malt!
The1True
My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Seriously. The Vorpal Sword was a hell of a lot meaner in 1e than in 3e. Ditto the Holy Avenger and Frost Brand. None of those were filed under Artifact.
Damnit I laughed.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
Yes, they are intentionally big tents, and most people aren't pushing them to the extreme like the person in that link (that's why I flagged it as an extreme version that's expressive of the core values in a pure form, rather than representative of what normal play in the culture looks like).
If it seems odd that they can be that broad, I'd point to Nordic LARP. Nordic LARP includes both Jeepform games where e.g. one person stands still while a second person calls out parts of their body, and a third person tries to get their hands as close as possible to that part without touching, to multi-day extravaganzas with hundreds of characters wearing elaborate costumes and wandering around an abandoned bunker pretending to be the last survivors of humanity trying to organise future society with minimal referee presence. This isn't even me saying this is all the same culture - Nordic LARPers think it is, because they share a common set of values that prioritise immersion in the experience, and realise questions of how to create and produce immersions are ones of individual practical style.
If you want to read how batshit and extreme this can get, here's a post (from today) that I just had someone send me a link to. I don't think this wizard is representative of normal Nordic LARP play but I do think it's expressive of its ideals in a very pure way, so pure that it kind of sacrifices reality to better exalt their expression.
Pseudoephedrine
Should be playing D&D instead
Yeah, it's the stoic thing where the more you understand, the easier it is to detach one's self.
I think these people's games have also drifted over time as the OSR has become more clearly a thing unto itself, with its own norms and classics, etc.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
I found the OSR was often defined itself by who it was excluding, so I'm not surprised that @squeen no longer identifies with it. I never felt I could claim membership in it, despite any similarities in playstyle, largely because of my choice of edition. I also never really wanted to claim membership in it; some of its more vocal proponents were right bastards and I had no interest in joining their club.
Beoric
8, 8, I forget what is for
Gaa! It is always so deeply self-absorbed?
But part of the charm of the OSR is that it is, per definition, lacking a central authority or a council of elders that decide who gets to be in it or what. All attempts to centralize this authority and appoint people based on something besides popularity, merit or control of communcations infrastructure have failed dramatically. Besides adherence to an oldschool framework, which is a rough but overall robust measure, there is really no way anyone can objectively state that something you produce is or is not OSR.
To me, the heart of the OSR is Gabor Lux, Bryce, Guy Fullerton, Chainsaw, Anthony Huso, Patrick Stuart (honorary), Aaron Fairbrook, Geoffrey Mckinney's Carcosa, Peter Spahn, John Stater, Jeff Sparks and the list slowly spirals off into incoherence with Venger Satanis somewhere on the periphery of the forbidden zone. Part of my Artpunk Crusade, other then an excuse to shitpost in a sublime fashion, has been to figure out how and why some of the Artpunk stuff does not appeal when it should nominally fall under the same envelope. If you go on the OSR Discord and you ask what the OSR is and what defines it, and you go on Knights& Knaves or Dragonsfoot, you are bound to get completely different takes. Perhaps some parts will slough off as they grow too removed from their foundational origins. It will exist as long as people are passionate about it, play it, make stuff and buy stuff.
I see OSE as the new king with a 100k kickstarter, Palace Copper bestseller in the LL category, Xyntillian sold out twice, I unpetrified my Level 5 wizard in ACKS, I am reading a copy of Broken Castle by Gene Wiegel, my B/X game hit session 30 and the OSR Discord has been rid of an unholy blight. Meanwhile 5e Candlekeep is going to use a battle-wheelchair supplement. I think the future is bright for the OSR. Also private life is pretty sweet and I just had a Corona test and am waiting for the results.
You. All of you. Except DP. Okay maybe also DP. YOU are the OSR. You are participating in the adventure design forum of what is probably the single most influential voice in the OSR when it comes to adventure design. And once it arrives, we shall have a new Holy Book. New fantatics. A new orthodoxy! New Wars! We will carry His Word to Other Forums with Fire and Sword! And though we might quarrel at times, let it be stated that we quarrelled as brothers!
Carry on.
To me, the heart of the OSR is Gabor Lux, Bryce, Guy Fullerton, Chainsaw, Anthony Huso, Patrick Stuart (honorary), Aaron Fairbrook, Geoffrey Mckinney's Carcosa, Peter Spahn, John Stater, Jeff Sparks and the list slowly spirals off into incoherence with Venger Satanis somewhere on the periphery of the forbidden zone. Part of my Artpunk Crusade, other then an excuse to shitpost in a sublime fashion, has been to figure out how and why some of the Artpunk stuff does not appeal when it should nominally fall under the same envelope. If you go on the OSR Discord and you ask what the OSR is and what defines it, and you go on Knights& Knaves or Dragonsfoot, you are bound to get completely different takes. Perhaps some parts will slough off as they grow too removed from their foundational origins. It will exist as long as people are passionate about it, play it, make stuff and buy stuff.
I see OSE as the new king with a 100k kickstarter, Palace Copper bestseller in the LL category, Xyntillian sold out twice, I unpetrified my Level 5 wizard in ACKS, I am reading a copy of Broken Castle by Gene Wiegel, my B/X game hit session 30 and the OSR Discord has been rid of an unholy blight. Meanwhile 5e Candlekeep is going to use a battle-wheelchair supplement. I think the future is bright for the OSR. Also private life is pretty sweet and I just had a Corona test and am waiting for the results.
You. All of you. Except DP. Okay maybe also DP. YOU are the OSR. You are participating in the adventure design forum of what is probably the single most influential voice in the OSR when it comes to adventure design. And once it arrives, we shall have a new Holy Book. New fantatics. A new orthodoxy! New Wars! We will carry His Word to Other Forums with Fire and Sword! And though we might quarrel at times, let it be stated that we quarrelled as brothers!
Carry on.