The state of Post-OSR content

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
The Alchemist in #2 was a PC, but the Alchemist in #49 was an NPC.
That makes sense! I remember the NPC version had things in there like "the alchemist gets 2 xp for each successfully created bottle" and thinking how awful that'd be as a kid. Lenord Lakofka, always paying attention to detail! Even the boring ones!

He mentioned an Alchemist spell in L1, which I find to be funny. "Wizard Glue". Sure, why not?
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
The NPC Alchemist also included rules for when wizards were able to make certain potions, along with the chances of succeeding at same. We used it for that purpose more than for the NPC.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Dude, I used to hate them but now I can't get enough of All-Dressed. Fuck, I havn't been home in two years. This Covid shit is killing me.
I originally read this without the period and kept wondering what the heck "All-Dressed Fuck" was.
(Sounded kinky.)
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Sounds delicious T1T!

DM to DMs: You know what I do like about poison --- even when it isn't fatal?

...It's when my 6-10th level party realizes the 1HD monsters they are fighting is using it on their missile weapons...and the cakewalk suddenly turns into a panicked retreat!

No one even has to die. Just rolling that first saving throw is enough.

Priceless.:giggle:
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
There's a lot of interesting material for discussion but it goes by rapidly so forgive me. I was going to remark that if you play D&D Basic you are almost certainly going to have to houserule some elements. That's kind of the charm for a lot of people I think. I'll borrow the odd ruling from AD&D since I figure those have all been playtested and work fairly well at creating consequences and eliminating "free moves", which makes everything feel inconsequential. Say, if learning a spell is free and takes no time, everyone does it. As soon as you attach a price in terms of time and cost, it becomes an interesting tactical decision. My main reason for choosing D&D Basic over AD&D is the learning curve. I think only a very dedicated subset of players would be able to handle AD&D as their entry into roleplaying games, and Basic is a good way to bridge the gap. I didn't find any indication of evil storygamepropaganga but maybe it will be unlocked as soon as my PCs hit Domain level.

R.e. Houseruling. I think the difference is philosophy. When I run something someone else has made, I try to get an idea of what it is they made, what inspired them, and why they made the choices they made before I decide to change anything. Its a principle of parsimony, its good until I run into a problem somewhere. I think that's probably the way to go, and the more complex your system is, the more hesitant you should be to tinker with anything fundamental (which is what made D20 very challenging for neophyte GMs I think).

Hell, I've even got a bunch of favourites in the much-loathed Planescape ("The Final Boundary"), Spelljammer ("Under the Dark Fist" (which @PrinceofNothing might enjoy ripping apart one of these days)) and 2.5 S&P ("Die Vecna Die") categories. Even 3e managed to pump out "Forge of Fury". Some of those monster adventures for 5e sure look tempting as well ("Tomb of Annihilation")...
Spelljammer is terra incognita for me old boy. I'd have to do the campaign setting first, and those are long so give me a while. Die Vecna Die on the other hand, I remember as being kind of awesome. It had too many boxed text moments but there were some pretty interesting dungeon elements and I liked the idea of a sort of multi-planar Stonehenge run by Vecna cultists. All in all, Bruce Cordell was doing God's work in the last days of 2e.

lolololol yeah. Fail your save; die. Make your save; paralyzed and might as well die. I don't think Spell Resistance worked on it either. It was a terrible spell right from low level-on.
3" range, an attack roll to hit, a gemstone of at least 50 gp as a material component and paralysis/death only on level 12? At that level you have much more potent abilities that you can throw out, and the enemies have big fucking ACs. I think it works fine as an illusionist spell. From UA p. 66 "Magic resistance works fine of course."
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
R.e. Houseruling. I think the difference is philosophy. When I run something someone else has made, I try to get an idea of what it is they made, what inspired them, and why they made the choices they made before I decide to change anything. Its a principle of parsimony, its good until I run into a problem somewhere. I think that's probably the way to go, and the more complex your system is, the more hesitant you should be to tinker with anything fundamental (which is what made D20 very challenging for neophyte GMs I think).
I think this is true of most everything---the more you take the time to get into the creator's head, and place it in the appropriate historical context, the more the it "flows" and you can fill in missing gaps in a coherent way. You eventually start to "get it".

Beyond D&D (and emphatically music!), this surprisingly even applies to mathematics and physics. Learning a topic, algorithm, or technique is best done in context. You need to know the zeitgeist of the author's times, and understand the problems he or she was trying to solve as well as the other knowledge available to them---then the esoteric just clicks. Building a mental timeline of where and when everything occurred is invaluable for understanding---even with something as timeless as mathematics. Your fellow scientists and engineers---looking at it out-of-context---will be puzzled as to why you seem suddenly so knowledgeable and adept. You kind of absorb the subject---and it changes you. You drop all pretext of detachment and own it, while it simultaneously owns you.

[Begin Digression]
Being "cool" was much more a literal word in the American 1950's. Folks who were "cool" literally seemed cold, unconcerned, and disconnected...detached from society. A cold temperament---think James Dean or Elvis, the young outsiders. In contrast (to my mind) is "the Geek" or Nerd. The Geek lets his passions spill over...sometimes in an uncomfortable way. The Geek is not "cool" in temperament, he is "hot and bothered" about stuff---all the time. Even these days, when the word has morphed and twisted around so that geeks now say "things" are cool (as opposed to people)---the "cool kids" still keep their emotional cards close to their chests, and seldom express a passion (just sarcasm and mockery for others' passions)---because it exposes a human connection that can be socially exploited by their rivals. "Cool kids" are stereo-typically above it all---unflappable, unreachable.

In the context of the first paragraph---you can't stand apart from the knowledge, and remain "cool". You have to "geek-out" on it, and allow it to get inside your head. For example, to be a successful engineering student, you have to "go all the way" and become a nerd---with all the associated stigma. There's no holding back or doing it half-way. You have to "try". You have to "care". Otherwise, you will fail into mediocrity.

As cool as he was, you can't remain aloft like Han Solo as we see him at the beginning of Star Wars---you have to be geeky emotionally earnest Luke to learn to use The Force.
[End digression]

This is what I keep trying (poorly) to convey to you all with regards to the 1e DMG. It does help if you get inside Gygax's head, and the more your experiences parallel his (through extended campaign play), the more what he wrote seems to make sense. So many on the web talk about the poor organization and muddled construction of the DMG---but over time, that melts away. That journey (which I'm still on), is what I was failing to describe in the Me and the DMG thread. The book---that was confusing and opaque (to me)---starts to thaw and melt when your mind is open to the knowledge.

All of ETOB's seeming "grey-ness" in the term By-The-Book, is also a part of that. You start to get the structure, and the mind-set, such that holes and gaps in how-to-apply-it shrink. You can mentally fill in the gaps in a consistent way. Again, I'm using the 1e DMG as an example---but this is universally applicable to learning. There is very little difference in my mind between a neophyte engineering student complaining about the organization of a Calculus or Dynamics text, and folks new to AD&D complaining about the DMG. In both cases, AFTER the light-bulb has gone off, you will hear folks say things like, "Why didn't the author just say it like...[how I now imperfectly comprehend it---but language fails me too].". Understanding comes, when understanding comes...there's no short-cut.

Prince is right---starting with AD&D is probably not the way to go. TSR obviously agreed with him and thus published three separate attempts at a Beginner's guide (before eventually throwing Advanced out the window all together). Honestly, if folks are looking for a streamlined AD&D---with cleaner presentation, have a peek at OSRIC. All that it is, is a faithful attempt to preserve, reconcile, and organize AD&D---not a Mr.-Fix-It "better" AD&D. It's a book that well compliments the 1e DMG/PHB/MM, in my opinion---a great "study guide" and true homage.

As another aside, James M at Grognardia is also "looking back" at the 1e DMG in a series of posts he calls "Random Rolls". He picks a page (randomly?) from the 1e DMG and discusses it. I don't always agree with his conclusions---he's clearly attached to the B/X D&D of his youth, and tends to bristle at the AD&D difference. That's fine....but it means we don't share the same sensibilities at some level (I'm come at it from OD&D/Holmes). And yet, in his journey of DMG-discovery, you can see the gears starting to mesh and he's grown less antagonistic towards the tome. Having played a multi-year campaign of Empire of the Petal Throne (while in self-imposed blog exile) has had it subtle effect on his view of the game---bringing it closer to Gygax's, and it's foundations.

Yesterday's post was a familiar topic: playing monster/demi-human races versus humans**.
Worth a read.

(**In an exercise of adding more pointless antagonism to the world, I've been racking my brain but failed to come up with a smarmy term like "candy classes" for uber-races. "Master-race", while close, has already been taken...and with a very different historical connotation...so I'm not touching that. ) :)
 
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PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Yesterday's post was a familiar topic: playing monster/demi-human races versus humans**.
Worth a read.
That reminds me, I should inform you that based on the current thread I have decided to replace all the classes in my B/X-game with the following custom classes because I think they fit better with my authorial vision; Magical Girls, Talking Owls, Plumbers, Fursonas and Forest-People-of-no-specific-ethnicity-creed-or-orientation. What do you think???

As another aside, James M at Grognardia is also "looking back" at the 1e DMG in a series of posts he calls "Random Rolls". He picks a page (randomly?) from the 1e DMG and discusses it. I don't always agree with his conclusions---he's clearly attached to the B/X D&D of his youth, and tends to bristle at the AD&D difference. That's fine....but it means we don't share the same sensibilities at some level (I'm come at it from OD&D/Holmes). And yet, in his journey of DMG-discovery, you can see the gears starting to mesh and he's grown less antagonistic towards the tome. Having played a multi-year campaign of Empire of the Petal Throne (while in self-imposed blog exile) has had it subtle effect on his view of the game---bringing it closer to Gygax's, and it's foundations.
I'll give the pope his due, it was Grognardia that got me interested in Oldschool gaming but his columns always come across as very milquetoast. He had a few good points such as advocating for a return of S&S DnD that really stuck with me but a lot of his material really does have that nostalgic feel.
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
That reminds me, I should inform you that based on the current thread I have decided to replace all the classes in my B/X-game with the following custom classes because I think they fit better with my authorial vision; Magical Girls, Talking Owls, Plumbers, Fursonas and Forest-People-of-no-specific-ethnicity-creed-or-orientation. What do you think???
Umm. Sounds very neo-OSR. You'll probably attract a ton of players. (I won't be one of them.)

I'll give the pope his due, it was Grognardia that got me interested in Oldschool gaming but his columns always come across as very milquetoast. He had a few good points such as advocating for a return of S&S DnD that really stuck with me but a lot of his material really does have that nostalgic feel.
I think these days he tries very hard not to offend. No harm in that, but his passion is muted.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
That reminds me, I should inform you that based on the current thread I have decided to replace all the classes in my B/X-game with the following custom classes because I think they fit better with my authorial vision; Magical Girls, Talking Owls, Plumbers, Fursonas and Forest-People-of-no-specific-ethnicity-creed-or-orientation. What do you think???.
Fascinating! Kent told me he wanted to join a Mork Borg game. I'll tell him I found one.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
All weekend long I'm been smiling about "Magical Girls" as a class. There is something brilliantly Anime about that which stabs at the heart of "not your grandfather's D&D". I am a hair's breath away from adding that to my campaign-world as well.

Me @ GaryCon 2022: Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, Druid, Thief and Magical Girls---those are your only PC class options (NO EXCEPTIONS!) because I am an out-of-touch, strict, BtB a-hole who won't allow my players to be creative.

Thank you for that bit of discordant silliness Prince. Please submit your new class write-up to Malrex for the next Footprints. There's a good chance WotC will pick it up in a future 5e supplement too. It could be the next anti-paladin.
 
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PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Fascinating! Kent told me he wanted to join a Mork Borg game. I'll tell him I found one.
Someday I will bring the Artpunk Crusade to Discord, and run Mörkborg games for young, and teach them 3d6 in order, its okay to meta-game, keep your chin up when your character dies and stay away from mods with cartoon animal avatars.

Thank you for that bit of discordant silliness Prince. Please submit your new class write-up to Malrex for the next Footprints. There's a good chance WotC will pick it up in a future 5e supplement too. It could be the next anti-paladin.
These times can be tough, its good to be able to laugh at the silliness of it all.

Speaking of classes, I think I remain a new class agnostic. I think new classes are most certainly prone to the risks you describe but I can envision two circumstances when adding classes is justified. Very Newschool so trigger warning for squeen!;

1) If you make a setting and you want to signal to everyone that this is not your grandfather's D&D and you've fucked with some of the core assumptions. For Age of Dusk I contemplated modifying the monk class to simulate the Brotherhood of Pan-Kra, an Order of mystics that replaces their flesh with the mummified flesh of their own holy dead, and whose masters travel into the lands surrounding the tempest, to find the flesh of dead gods so they may reach apotheosis. Most of the factions I came up with I could easily do within the existing framework of D&D but that one does genuinely merit its own (NPC?) class.

2) As a form of reward to keep things fresh. Its a very common element to video games but in Tabletop RPGs its not really done. If the PCs uncover a passage to a new land or achieve some sort of milestone you might allow them to select a new type of Class. From the get go it does kind of poison everyone but I can imagine that after 8 years of campaigning someone considers "You know what? I think I'll try a Plumber."

The thing I always found most egregious of new classes, and you saw this in D20 a lot, is that they would gradually come to replace the existing ones and render those obsolete by virtue of being much better. The fighter class in D20 is a prime example of this, and costless multiclassing in 5e is slowly rendering everything into the same amorphous mess, devoid of specification or identity. At least in AD&D Dual-classing was a serious commitment that you could not off-handedly reverse. The freedom to multi-class without any sort of drawback just renders the commitment to a class a light and trivial thing, like switching from mountainbiking to jogging.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
1) If you make a setting and you want to signal to everyone that this is not your grandfather's D&D and you've fucked with some of the core assumptions. For Age of Dusk I contemplated modifying the monk class to simulate the Brotherhood of Pan-Kra, an Order of mystics that replaces their flesh with the mummified flesh of their own holy dead, and whose masters travel into the lands surrounding the tempest, to find the flesh of dead gods so they may reach apotheosis. Most of the factions I came up with I could easily do within the existing framework of D&D but that one does genuinely merit its own (NPC?) class.
I honestly have no beef with this.

For example, monk is not a class I'd normally offer, but there is one Temple high in the mountains with a monastic order in it---Dr. Strange's The Ancient One style. If my players ever make it there (and someone dies) I would be fine with them re-starting as a monk. As written, right now, if the PC's get there, they can train for some new skills (by existing class)---weird non-PHB things like "catching missiles", "fire walking", or "mediative archery".

All that sort of stuff is rewards-for-adventuring to my way of thinking---just like drinking a potion that lets you breath fire.

The Temple is **WAY** out, there's no way a first-level party ever makes it there. High-level characters accumulate the goodies in campaign play---so there's no reason to screw with the core-rules. It's just "treasure".

(...and of course there's a catch---a BIG time-tax, with a twist...)
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
For example, monk is not a class I'd normally offer, but there is one Temple high in the mountains with a monastic order in it---Dr. Strange's The Ancient One style. If my players ever make it there (and someone dies) I would be fine with them re-starting as a monk. As written, right now, if the PC's get there, they can train for some new skills (by existing class)---weird non-PHB things like "catching missiles", "fire walking", or "mediative archery".

All that sort of stuff is rewards-for-adventuring to my way of thinking---just like drinking a potion that lets you breath fire.

The Temple is **WAY** out, there's no way a first-level party ever makes it there. High-level characters accumulate the goodies in campaign play---so there's no reason to screw with the core-rules. It's just "treasure".
Non standard skill gaining used to be a feature in...2e I think? I recall some adventures where you could befriend certain NPCs and gain an extra proficiency slot, entirely outside of normal development (In Al-Quadim of all things). I'm sure there are parallels in 1e also. That was a good idea.

Plunking some feature in the centre of your setting and stating very boldly NO ONE CLIMBS THIS MOUNTAIN AND LIVES is great stuff. Gives the PCs something to aim for. A long time ago I did a series of posts on the Highest Citadel, the former home of the Gods in AoD, with the way to it watched by 9 guardians of increasingly formidable ability with a mystery on top.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
The last step in mastering saying "no" is learning when and why it's ok to say "yes". Before that, "no" is reflexive when "I don't know" applies.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I honestly have no beef with this.

For example, monk is not a class I'd normally offer, but there is one Temple high in the mountains with a monastic order in it---Dr. Strange's The Ancient One style. If my players ever make it there (and someone dies) I would be fine with them re-starting as a monk. As written, right now, if the PC's get there, they can train for some new skills (by existing class)---weird non-PHB things like "catching missiles", "fire walking", or "mediative archery".

All that sort of stuff is rewards-for-adventuring to my way of thinking---just like drinking a potion that lets you breath fire.

The Temple is **WAY** out, there's no way a first-level party ever makes it there. High-level characters accumulate the goodies in campaign play---so there's no reason to screw with the core-rules. It's just "treasure".

(...and of course there's a catch---a BIG time-tax, with a twist...)
Oh for fuck's sake.
 
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