The state of Post-OSR content

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Also, @PrinceofNothing, what's your beef with @Pseudoephedrine, he's just describing the cultures, he's not their fucking ambassador.
Dude, seriously.

Also, @PrinceofNothing , what's your beef with Gus? It seems more than just ideological differences at this point. Can you point to an actual reason why the rest of us should hate this guy with your passionate fury?

This level of vitriol stresses me out. I thought we were all here to share a mutual enthusiasm for elf games...
 

Beek Gwenders

*eyeroll*
I think the #BroOSR will probably give AD&D an even worse rep than it already enjoys.
i have a feeling you might unfortunately be right. The only positive I can see at this stage (other than QB with his huge audience also summarising the same play style as the BroOSR), is that the key elements to understanding the AD&D texts (and indeed game play) - Time and the grand campaign - is now getting the attention it deserves.
 

Beek Gwenders

*eyeroll*
This idea of grand campaigns is the most interesting thing to come out in years of utterly dead discourse, far more then all this artpunk trash that has thankfully come to be recognized as inadequate and shallow. Proceduralism. Chortle and Snortjoy. Enduring systems are made by right-brained thinkers and they do not exist among your coven of midwit socialist witch-doctors. It is a task you are simply not equipped to handle.
I agree, the ideas of the grand campaign/time have been just sitting there all the time in the OD&D/AD&D texts all these years, maybe popping up occasionally in forums or obscure blogs (Nagora’s?), but never really getting anyone of significance (that I’m aware of at least) to pay much attention to them until the Alexandrian, the BroOSR and finally QB earlier this year started raising awareness to these ideas. The key to understanding AD&D and a lot of the weird rules only make sense when you make time an important element of the game.

Unfortunately, the BroOSR’s approach is likely to create as much negativity as good, judging from what I’ve seen so far. It’s hard to know if they’re dead serious about what they say or are actually trolling, or both.
 

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
The BrOSR is half 3/10 tedious joke, half serious, unfortunately. If you're familiar with Jeffro Johnson, he's effectively the leader of a group who are mostly active on Twitter. A brief summary of what they see as the pillars of "correct" play are available here. I find some of their ideas interesting, but the way they express them much less interesting.
Hmmm.

"1:1 time aka Jeffrogaxian timekeeping — The game world is tied to the real-world calendar. For each day that passes in the real world, a day passes in the game world. This may sound strange, but it turns out to be foundational to everything that the #BrOSR does."

I've done this sometimes during adventures but never thought about doing it between adventures before. Put it together with faction play in a West Marches-style group of DMs and I can see the appeal.

I agree that the tone of that post is offputting (especially the pictures and the podcast) but I also agree that the ideas are interesting.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
"1:1 time aka Jeffrogaxian timekeeping — The game world is tied to the real-world calendar. For each day that passes in the real world, a day passes in the game world. This may sound strange, but it turns out to be foundational to everything that the #BrOSR does."
That totally doesn't work if taken literally. You are in the middle of a battle which get paused to the following weekend to play out...

The general notion has it's heart in the right place (but stated that way has its head up its arse)---you are totally going to have to manage that in a campaign. You just will. :rolleyes:
 

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
That totally doesn't work if taken literally. You are in the middle of a battle which get paused to the following weekend to play out...
If taken literally, wouldn't you just not pause the battle for a week right in the middle? E.g. if you're rushed for time in real life, you might have to rush your battle tactics instead of pausing. My understanding is that having it affect the way you play the game is the point.
 

Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Seems gimmicky and unnecessary. A stunt.

Why is that better?
I assume by "it" you're asking about using real time to affect in-game events, which I've done before and actually am planning on doing tonight, as opposed to asking about the interesting idea which I've never done before: tying game time 1:1 to calendar time.

Furthermore, I'll pretend you are asking why it's better in certain scenarios, as opposed to challenging me to prove that it's better in every scenario all the time, which would be a straw man.

The main reason I like real-time clocks is for the effect it has on player behavior.

1.) If you end a 5E game session when players "take a long rest", i.e. bed down for the night to recover spells and hit points, you reduce the incentive for so-called Five Minute Work Days even without having to change the game rules. (Hey, this is relevant to the discussion on proceduralism!) It increases the chance that at least one player will say, "Hold on, I'm not done yet," and will press on, either splitting the party or dragging other PCs into greater danger with him. I don't typically see the Five Minute Work Day problem in practice so this isn't a big issue for me compared to:

2.) It helps ensure that we all get dramatic closure. Tonight I'm planning on running a mini-adventure one-shot to test out WotC's new Vecna stat block (I'm extremely skeptical about it), but I only have a couple of hours to do it. By setting a one-hour timer in full view of everybody, and secretly resolving that no matter what else happens, Vecna will arrive when the timer hits zero even if they're in the middle of another battle, I ensure that at least half of the time I have available for the game will be dedicated to the thing I meant to do (testing Vecna) instead of incidental details.
 
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The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
By setting a one-hour timer in full view of everybody, and secretly resolving that no matter what else happens, Vecna will arrive when the timer hits zero even if they're in the middle of another battle, I ensure that at least half of the time I have available for the game will be dedicated to the thing I meant to do (testing Vecna) instead of incidental details.
I'd be interested to hear how this goes...
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
That totally doesn't work if taken literally. You are in the middle of a battle which get paused to the following weekend to play out...

The general notion has it's heart in the right place (but stated that way has its head up its arse)---you are totally going to have to manage that in a campaign. You just will. :rolleyes:
Many people have always made it a rule that it is the players obligation to manage the session such that the characters are out-of-action in a safe place at the end of it. And if they're not, then at the end of the session the characters automatically are sent back to a place of safety, except now their fate is out of the players hands and subject to a random table roll. See Castle Xyntillian for an example.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Many people have always made it a rule that it is the players obligation to manage the session such that the characters are out-of-action in a safe place at the end of it. And if they're not, then at the end of the session the characters automatically are sent back to a place of safety, except now their fate is out of the players hands and subject to a random table roll. See Castle Xyntillian for an example.
Interesting to hear, but has zero appeal. Same with dramatic closure. That's all sounds like short-timer syndrome. When talking about a long campaign, the whole is larger than any given night's play---so all that seems (sorry to be repetitive) gimmicky.

Also, @Hemlock : To me, it's a bit backwards to have an agenda for what happens in a given game (e.g. Venca's arrival, etc.). Of course, your mileage may vary.

I do like the idea that there should be real-time decision making pressure. I like the idea that players who dither too long miss that round's action. Heightened tension...and all that. We also generally attached our campaign clock (seasonal) to the real world's, but time keeping in the campaign (or dungeon) 100% depends on what happens in the campaign. Anything else sounds cockamamie, and no amount of peer pressure is going to make me think otherwise. That's a really, really, really stupid idea. It kind of blows my mind that it's not obvious. Is a round going to take a minutes? Are you going to wait 10 minutes to search for a secret door? What's so special about "a day" that breaks the precedent? If have have to travel to another city are you going to make everyone come back in three days? I mean, like, WTF? Are we talking about playing D&D or LARPIng?

Well if the 1:1 rule is fundamental, I'll just toss #BrOSR into the pile of yet-another-D&D-variant I have no interest in playing.
 
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Hemlock

Should be playing D&D instead
Interesting to hear, but has zero appeal. Same with dramatic closure. That's all sounds like short-timer syndrome. When talking about a long campaign, the whole is larger than any given night's play---so all that seems (sorry to be repetitive) gimmicky.

Also, @Hemlock : To me, it's a bit backwards to have an agenda for what happens in a given game (e.g. Venca's arrival, etc.). Of course, your mileage may vary.
Short-timer syndrome, exactly! It's driven by real-world constraints on time and the fact that I don't actually run games very often, and also that putting specific bounds on time commitments seems to be more likely to make people show up. If I were playing the same game with the same people every week for years on end, gameplay would be very different, and so would my life.

I totally respect your playstyle and the long-form campaign, but it's not something that would work for me at this point in my life.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Roger that.

It is unfortunately the reverse with me. I tried to coax play of a one-nighter with new characters recently, but there was no investment. My players just wanted to get back to the campaign.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Wasn't this originally in the 1st Ed Dungeon Master's Guide? Are you telling me that Gary Gygax was pulling a gimmicky stunt!?!
Umm...no? Strict time-keeping records, sure---but that's not 1:1 game days with calendar days. Heck, it takes years to build a castle...and back when I was a player they never lasted past two or three battles before some arse-hole with a disintegrate spell (or the like) was knocking your walls down.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
1:1 time is for DMs who have one campaign no matter how many player groups are playing in it at the same time. "At the same time" being the key term. There is one calendar for everyone, and while it can be stretched forward by individual groups it waits for none of them.

It someone is DMing one group of players then 1:1 time is only interesting instead of critical. If you have 1:1 time, if a character chooses to do something that would require a time investment then the player needs to bring a back-up character in. It's why Gygax had Bigby, Rigby, Digby, Mordenkainen, and a half-dozen other PCs. And why his kids also all had multiple PCs.

It's not for everyone. It is gloriously gamist.
 

grodog

Should be playing D&D instead
WotC really has a product called Monsters of the Multiverse? I mean, wow, jumping on the MCU cinematic band-wagon a bit hard aren't ya? No original concepts of terminology of your own? The Marvel comic-book multiverse has existed since the 70's...but after one or two movies...and BAM! it multi-verse this, meta-verse that sprayed all over pop culture like a cheap coat of paint. Pathetic!
WotC has been strip-mining Greyhawk for more than 20 years. Why would they even consider doing anything original?


The reason the exploits of these Intellectual Gaynors of the Damned
Love it! :D

Allan.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
It's not for everyone. It is gloriously gamist.
I dig and have used multiple PCs per player, borrowing henchmen and the like while PCs were tied up in extended game-events. (Or just needed to be in two places at once).

Back when I was a player, if someone missed a session, or another group played in the same world, world events moved forward.

Calling this "1:1 time-keeping" is a terrible, misleading label and I don't think that appears in the DMG anywhere under that name.

The key is that nothing "freezes" when the PCs leave the room or go to sleep (or miss a game)---a dynamic world that moves even when unobserved.

...but game time runs at an appropriate pace and is not tied to our calendar. I will never buy that was ever the intent of D&D.

WotC has been strip-mining Greyhawk for more than 20 years. Why would they even consider doing anything original?
Good point. It takes a true creative artist to invent something genuinely new --- and almost never results from a corporate team chasing $'s.
 
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Beek Gwenders

*eyeroll*
I dig and have used multiple PCs per player, borrowing henchmen and the like while PCs were tied up in extended game-events. (Or just needed to be in too places at once).

Back when I was a player, if someone missed a session, or another group played in the same world, world events moved forward.

Calling this "1:1 time-keeping" is a terrible, misleading label and I don't think that appears in the DMG anywhere under that name.

The key is that nothing "freezes" when the PCs leave the room or go to sleep (or miss a game)---a dynamic world that moves even when unobserved.

...but game time runs at an appropriate pace and is not tied to our calendar. I will never buy that was ever the intent of D&D.
This is probably the best BROSR interview I know of to get an idea of what they’re talking about and the type of campaign they are running, and it doesn’t come with the combative interplay between blowhards that other interviews have (well, not much anyway :)):

Secrets of the BROSR: Interview with Jeffrey Johnson

The passion for 1e does somewhat alleviate the personalities and approaches adopted...I have to say that I must show some degree of respect for someone who just says ’I’m going to run this thing as written and see what happens’.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
With regard to Prince's diatribe/rant -- I backed Silent Titans hoping for...something D&D-usable, but what I got was a entirely different game I knew I would never, ever play. Honestly, I was impressed with his creative mind, but he lost me there. It's clear this guy didn't really want to play D&D. It's a pity really because he could have done great things for the hobby. He was a shooting star, who---like so many pop stars---lost his way (or at least didn't want to be what everyone wished he would become).

Blue Medusa was also a big disappointment, but at the time I blamed Zak for the twenty-something (overtly sexual & self-obsessed) faux-maturity. I too remember being an idiotic suburban "punk-rocker" in the late 1980's riding around in my pal's used hearse with his purple-haired girl-friends wearing distressed clothes, homemade T-shirts and leather jackets. Amusing to see that same esthetic regurgitated in LA 20 years later. I have no need for that chic in my D&D these days---the hormone rush of being a young adult out of my parent's home for the first time who can now swear in casual conversation has definately worn off.
 
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