The state of Post-OSR content

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
roll a d100 after scoring an 18 STR score
Oh my god, how many Wishes did it take to get an 18 Str up to a 19? It was like ten or something, lol. Of course my 3.5e 20th lvl Barbarian with the 32 Str went cooky in the other direction...

That's OSR, to me.
So, are you saying that in your opinion, the OSR is dead and in a museum gift shop? Don't you play 5e with OSR supplements though? It seems like some part of the 'movement' is still quite vital...
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
So, are you saying that in your opinion, the OSR is dead and in a museum gift shop?
No, I'm saying the OSR is the museum gift shop. The internet is the museum. The copies on your bookshelf and stowed away in the attic is the museum. The OSR is the means to take facsimiles of those things and sell them to you.

Don't you play 5e with OSR supplements though? It seems like some part of the 'movement' is still quite vital...
Any changes I make to my home game, I don't make because the OSR tells me how or suggests I should - I do it out of a need, which I discover in-play at my table. I have the ability to make such ad-hoc changes to the game without any outside guidance whatsoever, as all seasoned DMs should be able to do when they have as many years under their belt.

The "supplements" I use are modules written for OSR systems, which by virtue of my adapting them to 5e, may as well not have been.. which technically makes the OSR more of a hinderance than a help to me.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
The OSR is the means to take facsimiles of those things and sell them to you.
This is disturbingly cynical! The problem with this argument is basically no one is making any money off the OSR. Even at its height I don't think anyone was making a living income off it...
But this leads to another question: Then why are we here? I mean, I'm here to get my fix of old school chatter. I think all of us are. Does that not represent some kind of living pulse? Or are you suggesting that we're here rehashing a packaged memory that's been fed to us?
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Hey DP: Not doing a very good job of ignoring my posts, eh? Is it a general lack of self-control, or are you just not a man of your word?

OSRIC was written when it was felt that AD&D books were hard to get, and also that one might get legally attacked if an adventure was published that claimed it was for AD&D.

Similarly, Swords & Wizardry was written when it was very hard to get the original OD&D booklets.

WotC subsequently released legal digital and print versions of the 1e and OD&D manuals---which solved the preservation problem for most.

Can you and I be done now?
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
This is disturbingly cynical! The problem with this argument is basically no one is making any money off the OSR. Even at its height I don't think anyone was making a living income off it...
But this leads to another question: Then why are we here? I mean, I'm here to get my fix of old school chatter. I think all of us are. Does that not represent some kind of living pulse? Or are you suggesting that we're here rehashing a packaged memory that's been fed to us?
Fair point, but I guess the issue is that although we are here talking about old-school gaming, nowhere on this site do I see an "OSR" badge. it's more a label thing than a concept thing.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Hey DP: Not doing a very good job of ignoring my posts, eh? Is it a general lack of self-control, or are you just not a man of your word?
You said you were going to ignore me (*cough*); it doesn't mean I'm automatically going to ignore you.

WotC subsequently released legal digital and print versions of the 1e and OD&D manuals---which solved the preservation problem for most.
So if the OSR is a preservation movement, and the preservation problem is solved, then suddenly the OSR has no more reason to exist, no?
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
The link says "about:blank#blocked" so I can't see what you've linked to.

In any case, if I had wanted to ignore you, I'd have added you to my ignore list. Likewise on your end.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
It does now, yes.

I still maintain that I adhered to the letter of the statement: you have been safely ignored... maybe not so much unsafely ignored.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
Can we all just get along? There are like six of us active on the forum. Kinda hard to dance around each other...
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Yes, but when there's six people active and half are ignoring the other half, then you get two smaller, shittier 3-person echo chambers rather than one big inclusive community. I didn't think that was supposed to be the intention around here.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
That's what I'm saying.

Just sucks that we have to walk on eggshells around each other.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
Just sucks that we have to walk on eggshells around each other.
We are all (hopefully) reasonable adults here. I least, I like to think so.

If I say someone's opinion on something is bullshit (which I would never do with such a lack of tact), I hope they understand that I only think their specific opinion on one specific matter is bullshit, not them. I try not to bear grudges, and I always separate the person from the statement. I am probably the fastest person to offer an olive branch during a conflict - I can't count the times I've apologized to someone on here when they've correctly called out the times I've crossed a line.

Unfortunately, some people just can't understand that an attack on opinion is not an attack on a personal level, and they react accordingly - those people should probably avoid internet forums having "debates" of opinion. What they want is people to agree with them and respect them for what they say, not to alter their own way of thinking by taking in new viewpoints.
 

HypthtcllySpkng

*eyeroll*
Everyone here is aware that there are places on the internet where debate happens and people don't take it personally and no argument about getting along ensues?

The problem is here not that it cannot be done, blaming the platform for debate or the audience and simultaneously saying you've repeatedly felt the need to offer an olive branch makes me think the platform isn't the issue, perhaps.

If the OSR were strictly preservation, than I agree it would not require existing due to the internet, PDFs, rereleases and so on.
So the OSR may contain that somewhat, but I think there's an argument to be made that people generally felt that the ruleset of 1e had not been fully explored and to do more with it than was done in it's day.
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
I'm starting to think the OSR for some has become a belief with its own dogma and orthodoxies and that's frequently why we run into friction here.
I read x blogs and digest and internalize their arguments and that becomes my world view on hex crawls and procedural mechanics and whether Gary was a rock god etc. and at a certain point I become saturated and am no longer open to ideas that stand in opposition to what I already believe.
It's one thing for us to discuss philosophies and another to attack my comfy, cozy beliefs.
 

DangerousPuhson

Should be playing D&D instead
The problem is here not that it cannot be done, blaming the platform for debate or the audience and simultaneously saying you've repeatedly felt the need to offer an olive branch makes me think the platform isn't the issue, perhaps.
Every conflict requires an olive branch, and it's true I'm frequently mired in conflict around here; consequently, I am presented more opportunities to extend an olive branch than most.

I admit blame in my part, for what it's worth - perhaps I am not so strong a writer nor as cool-headed as I had hoped I were. I guess a place where the dialogue flows like drool doesn't quite suit my specific brand of sharing. If a lesson is to be taken from all this, it's that I'll keep my mouth shut and my opinions to myself while in the company of those who don't want to hear from me and yearn for my removal.

I'm starting to think the OSR for some has become a belief with its own dogma and orthodoxies and that's frequently why we run into friction here.
I read x blogs and digest and internalize their arguments and that becomes my world view
I just had a similar thought, mainly about how nobody here ever seems to defer to a 3e/4e/5e blog as a source of reference, neither to prove nor disprove. Yet time and time again there is always the same "Bryce/Huso/Finch/Melan/QuestingBeast/Grognardia says..." [editor's note - nothing against those particular OSR bloggers, just citing as an example of the too-frequently consulted OSR source circle]. I bet there are 10x as many modern D&D blogs for any single edition than all the OSR blogs combined, yet I never see them taken at as much face value as the OSR blog chain. I wonder why that is?
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
If the OSR were strictly preservation, than I agree it would not require existing due to the internet, PDFs, rereleases and so on.
So the OSR may contain that somewhat, but I think there's an argument to be made that people generally felt that the ruleset of 1e had not been fully explored and to do more with it than was done in it's day.
A very good argument, with abundant examples!

Dungeon Crawl Classics; Acts as a distillate, a hyper-focused AD&D that never was, incorporating spiffy mechanics for roleplaying KEWL M0V3Z that make the fighter interesting without giving him a bunch of silly quasi-magical powers. HARD random, HARD unique magic, WACK spellcasting, luck rolls etc. etc.

Adventurer Conqueror King; Uses a B/X framework but changes up the endgame to a more grounded, domain-level experience. Builds on the rudimentary framework for skills and abilities that started with proficiencies and delivers more customization options, while avoiding hideous bloat. Also contains; Sweet ass USEABLE economy rules for added versimiltude, rules for mutilation and crippling injury as an alternative to the 0 hp you are dead mechanic, more flavorful Ressurection rules, overal a finely crafted game.

Stars Without Number; is probably the most famous of Crawford's games, but his real contribution was the development of tools that allow one to quickly generate entire sectors worth of stuff to explore, as well as nifty faction rules to model an ever-shifting map of shifting alliances. If anything can be attributed to the OSR it has been the ressurrection and refinement of Hexcrawling as a an adventure model (vis a vis dungeoncrawling).

And the list goes on, for whatever level of relevance one may deem necessary, until you get to people's homebrew books that are played by maybe 20 people. After the 2nd wave of the OSR, people started innovating more, which makes sense. I don't think there will be a fourth wave and the current hobby needs LESS retroclones NOT MORE but the simple, more rng-oriented framework with a greater reliance on arbitration, creativity and out-of-the-box thinking has been put back on the map. It's started to reach the point where games are coming out that may or may not still be labelled OSR, which is a good indication that a lot of intervening niches have been filled. Mörkborg, Tröika...weird stuff.


I'm starting to think the OSR for some has become a belief with its own dogma and orthodoxies and that's frequently why we run into friction here.
I read x blogs and digest and internalize their arguments and that becomes my world view on hex crawls and procedural mechanics and whether Gary was a rock god etc. and at a certain point I become saturated and am no longer open to ideas that stand in opposition to what I already believe.
It's one thing for us to discuss philosophies and another to attack my comfy, cozy beliefs.
Yet when asked for a reason behind certain preferences these questions are very often answered intelligently and motivated by argumentation, not authority. Contrary to what has been stated, I have not seen a single Bryce Says Therefore It Is So since I took up the position of moderator. It is of course possible I have read over them.

There is undoubtedly a dogmatic streak within the OSR at large but there is also a larger reliance on homebrewing and doing things yourself that creates a sort of self-reliance and a willingness of innovate. Just check out the various blog posts on how each person interprets magic or handles Orcs or whathaveyou. The lack of booksworth of source-material basically leaves the interpretation of a lot of the material up to each individual GM, which generates a plethora of viewpoints, not a circle-jerk.
 

HypthtcllySpkng

*eyeroll*
I just had a similar thought, mainly about how nobody here ever seems to defer to a 3e/4e/5e blog as a source of reference, neither to prove nor disprove. Yet time and time again there is always the same "Bryce/Huso/Finch/Melan/QuestingBeast/Grognardia says..." [editor's note - nothing against those particular OSR bloggers, just citing as an example of the too-frequently consulted OSR source circle]. I bet there are 10x as many modern D&D blogs for any single edition than all the OSR blogs combined, yet I never see them taken at as much face value as the OSR blog chain. I wonder why that is?
Well for me, that is because I can't think of a single one that's good that isn't OSR primary. I've been familiar with Grog, Questing, and Bryce. But for 5e -- which I haven't mentioned, but I do actually play more than any other system, and is my current primary alongside a 2e Shadowrun game and one shots for every damn thing under the sun -- for 5e I can't think of a single blog / forum that is half as interesting, or as geared towards depth as the OSR blogs are. Though I did mention r/UnearthedArcana earlier, in regards to the presentation aspects of things, and if that counts, its a solid place for the exploration and critique of 5e homebrew, and often sparks deeper convos about 5e in general.

Still, please, if you know of a strong contender for 5e consideration that has a comparable measure of depth and craft and reason, point the way?

Edit: Actually I am quite fond of the AngryGM but he doesn't always do 5e so not sure if it counts.
 
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squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Well for me, that is because I can't think of a single one that's good that isn't OSR primary.
I am glad you said it, as an outsider and a 5e player, but in my wanderings around the blog-o-sphere, I came to pretty much the same conclusion.
The thinking on most non-OSR seems a few years behind, and more of a questioning/exploratory/groping nature than "eureka!". I don't know how to put a "r/" URL in my web browser---so is that a social network internal site? What impresses me so much about the K&KA crowd (like EOTB), is their clarity of thought about the game. The arguments and debatable-points have been honed razor sharp over the years of banter.

@PrinceofNothing : What are the 3 OSR waves in your eyes? I was arguing that the 1st-wave was preservative---do you agree?

EDIT: Byrce's reviews may lean favorably towards old-school play-style, but it has never come across as OSR Movement---nor was this forum ever explictly OSR...it was suppose to be about Adventure Design "good practices". (For Bryce's book)
 
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