The state of Post-OSR content

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
I went down that thread a bit and I'm not sure exactly what you were directing our attention towards? i.e. the confusion. Are you speaking of the confusion of "How D&D has changed over the years?".
Yes, basically. I think this is one of the more successful exchanges I've seen about the game's evolution on Reddit, but people are still struggling to explain what exactly has changed and how, they're still chauvinistic about their preferred styles, and OP's own confusion about whether he was playing the game "wrong" when he encounters the new play culture are all indicative to me of the problems I'm trying to resolve with the taxonomy.
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
So I've been working on the essay, and specifically elaborating the proto-culture / pre-trad piece. As background, I spent the past week refreshing myself by rereading:

1) OD&D white box
2) Empire of the Petal Throne
3) Boot Hill
4) Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry
5) City State of the Invincible Overlord
6) The Strategic Review's entire run / The first two years of Dragon
7) The Judge Guild's Journal
8) The 1977 Holmes Basic set
9) The 1979 AD&D 1e DMG

So one of the interesting things about the OD&D Whitebox is how much of the instruction about what one can do with it is implicit. For example, it never describes what the point of the game is, and the guidance on using the material is mainly restricted to advising one to starting off with a dungeon of a certain size. Even a straightforward statement like "This is a game where you take on the roles of individual characters exploring ruins with the hope of recovering treasure while braving perilous foes" isn't in it.

EPT, similarly, gives you a lot of ideas of things you could do, and even a basic campaign premise (the PCs are recent immigrants looking to move up in social status through taking on missions) but leaves ideas about what these missions could be mostly implicit, outside of some suggestions of the high politics of the empire.

It's actually Boot Hill in 1975 that first contains an explicit statement of what one is supposed to be doing in the game, in its foreword and introduction.

"These rules are aimed at enjoyment on a plane unusual to wargaming, the individual and personal. Rather than commanding hordes of troops players typically have but a single figure, their "character". With these figures the players recreate the individual gunfights, saloon brawls, and Wild West action as has come down to us from the pages of history — and the celluloid of Hollywood Westerns."

and

"The players then go about the actions appropriate to their chosen roles in the game — or the roles assigned to them by the game referee — more or less letting the nature of the Wild West take its course. Within a turn or two things begin to happen, and before long all hell has broken loose... These games can be played as single events, each unrelated to the next except for the "experience" which the characters might have gained or the substitution of a new personal figure due to the incarceration or demise of a former one during the course of the previous game. It is better if games are strung together as an epic of action, with the whole taking place in some general locale and past happenings being reflected more directly in each successive game"

The introduction also suggests that Boot Hill can be played with or without a referee and "While it is possible to structure rigid scenarios — in the manner of the two included herein — we suggest that free-form play will usually prove more interesting and challenging. Set up a town, give a few background details, and allow the participants free-rein thereafter."

That's basically it. There are some interesting similarities to D&D obviously, but this is not by any means a statement of what D&D is about or how to use its rules.

Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, and City State are all similarly silent. Really, Gygax's first address to the public of what the game is about is in the April 1976 issue of the Strategic Review, where there are a number of articles dealing with facets of the game and along the way he begins to elaborate a specific idea of what D&D is about.

In that issue, in his article "The Dungeons and Dragons Magic System", he says "While miniatures battles on the table top were conceived as a part of the overall game system, the major factor was always envisioned as the underworld adventure, while the wilderness trek assumed a secondary role, various other aspects took a third place, and only then were miniatures battles considered."

Later in this same article Gygax mentions that there are people who are already drifting away from his vision of D&D.

There's also a column towards the end of the issue called "D&D is Only As Good as the DM" that emphasises Gygax's own beliefs that challenge is central to the game (and that creating and managing these challenges is explicitly the job of the DM) - while also specifically calling out another crew of players who aren't playing the game the way he envisioned:

"Now I know of the games played at CalTech where the rules have been expanded and changed to reflect incredibly high levels, comic book characters and spells, and so on. Okay. Different strokes for different folks, but that is not D & D. While D & D is pretty flexible, that sort of thing stretches it too far, and the boys out there are playing something entirely different — perhaps their own name “Dungeons & Beavers,” tells it best."

He also complains that no one can have reached higher than level 14 yet according to his vision of how the game is to be played because no one has done so yet in Blackmoor or Greyhawk, the oldest campaigns that follow that vision.

So this seems pretty clear to me that even by 1976, we're already having people abandon the progressive, challenge-oriented gameplay and campaign structure Gygax envisioned but did not articulate explicitly in OD&D.

Interestingly, the Judges Guild Journal in its first issue (October 1976) is already talking about "plots" and "dramas" tho' these are mostly exhortations that are taken as self-explanatory. In general, reading through the journal's run in the late 1970s, you get Bledsaw and Holsinger elaborating very very different takes on D&D from anything Gygax is doing (even tho' Gygax signs off on a lot of it whenever they see him at GenCon and ask him about it). Bledsaw elaborates in a latter issue that he was introduced to roleplaying games in 1975 with a Middle Earth game that appears to have departed heavily from Gygax's vision of how to play the game, although we don't get a ton of details about it.

Holsinger's articles are very clearly focused on creating a plausible campaign setting that enable "scenarios" to be run that feature large-scale miniature combats, with dungeon-delving as at best a prelude to that. He actually recommends in one issue that any new player who wants to join a campaign has to provide a prewritten scenario of this sort for the DM's use (and he seems to believe PCs will continue to do this as the campaign goes on as well). Holsinger and a number of other contributors to the Judges' Guild Journal's emphasis on realism is explicitly against Gygax's own statements on the matter about D&D.

Around this time the Judges Guild is also experimenting with modules - the first D&D modules available to the public so far as I can tell (Tomb of Horrors existed since 1975 but TSR hadn't published it by 1977). Holmes will launch with the Tower of Zenopus in 1977 as well, tho' it also provides little insight into what one is supposed to do with the game and rules beyond this example.

Anyhow, to cut this very long post short, it seems like until late 1977 there's definitely no single culture of roleplaying, partially aided by the fact that D&D is extremely vague about what you're supposed to be doing / trying to do when you play it. Judges Guild and the Strategic Review provide very different visions of the game - I'm sure if I dug through Alarums and Excursions I'd find even more variation. These aren't just minor stylistic variations either - Holsinger's elaboration of how a campaign runs in the JGJ is radically different that Gygax's, and Gygax is frequently complaining that people are playing D&D so incorrectly that it's no longer D&D.

It seems like from sometime in 1978-1981 there's an attempt to create a shared understanding of the game, expressed through the gradual publication of AD&D and of adventure modules by TSR and the Judges Guild (and the rollout of TSR modules at GenCon and other conventions to normalise them as models of play in the larger community), and to a lesser extent through artcicles in the Dragon and Judges Guild Journal. It's unclear to me how successful this effort is.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
As I said before, "single culture of roleplaying" in the 70s is a strawman. I don't believe anyone contests that there was no single culture. There's never been a single culture in any era, and the 70s were no different.

A better way to put it is a "point of first contact culture", or "default culture". While I'm sure there were some people in Berkley in elsewhere that came to D&D from the vantage point of Dungeons and Beavers, that was a very small number as compared to those who came to D&D from the perspective of TSR books and the Gygax voice, and then either stayed there or quickly departed for Dungeons and Beavers, or the JG style, or many of the other scenes one checks out after reviewing their first vantage point (possibly because one of your new buddies in the scene says "yeah, but you gotta check out X. TSR doesn't really do this justice - X has it going on".

All these subcultures are reacting against TSR's culture, as expressed in the vision of Gygax progressively more strongly up to the early 80s. There were people who played D&D that never saw or read JG, Chaosium, EPT, or other variants..."variants". But there weren't many people who played/read JG, Chaosium, EPT or other variants who couldn't tell you precisely to the Nth degree how it varied from (and was better than) TSR D&D as envisioned by Gary Gygax.
 

Guy Fullerton

*eyeroll*
Following from EOTB’s last paragraph, that’s exactly what Chivalry & Sorcery and Runequest were, and the respective authors say as much (directly and indirectly) in contemporaneous articles. I get a kick out of imagining the veins popping out on the foreheads of Edward Simbalist and Steve Perrin as they wrote some of the comments; I don’t think they were actually having such strong reactions, but that’s where my imagination takes me. (Steve Perrin was a pretty cool, relaxed guy when I first got the chance to meet him, as a coworker of my mother in law. I geeked out a bit and told him how much I like the Stormbringer game, and then let him get back to work.)

@Pseudoephedrine I want to pool some resources with you. Stand by for a PM...
 
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Ynas Midgard

A FreshHell to Contend With
I believe the real "red pill" of role-playing games is the understanding that "role-playing" was not originally meant to refer to "you are now playing the role of Robin the Woodsman, so behave accordingly", but "how would YOU proceed if YOU were placed in the position of Robin the Woodsman?" That has a lot of repercussions on approaching play, using the rules to your advantage, interacting with your fellow players and the GM, and so forth. It puts the experience in - perhaps not in its proper place; that would be arrogant to assume - but how about "in a place that is both logical and comfortable"?
Yes! This was exactly the "hook" that got a lot of us into playing RPGs back in the day (so that our characters wouldn't make those "mistakes" our beloved action heroes and whatnot did on screen for the purposes of "drama").

Yeah, I tend to agree with Lich Van Winkle; the founding myth of the OSR is that is harkens back to a universal playstyle (EDIT: or universal culture) that never was. There is much useful to be gleaned from the OSR, but its foundational myths, like most foundational myths, are myths.
Are people really arguing that, though? I might be ignorant on this, so apologies in advance.

At any rate, the way I see it, the OSR was only meant to capture a playstyle (and aesthetics that go with it with little to no friction) that by the mid-2000s was not only out of official support but also dismissed and looked down upon. Certainly, aspects of the then prevalent playstyle were present from the 80s (or maybe even the late 70s), but by 2004 or so a certain style of gameplay was seemingly replaced, kept alive only by grognards on obscure forums.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Are people really arguing that, though? I might be ignorant on this, so apologies in advance.
I used to see it argued a lot by its more militant proponents. I see it less now, but then I tend to stay in the kinder, gentler corners of the OSR, which became easier when the OSR fragmented and you didn't have everybody commenting on every site.

I think LVW absorbed the whole firehose of the OSR at once, and everybody's positions tend get associated with the obnoxious people they share a comments section with.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I've been looking in my copies of the Kobold Quarterly to see if I could find that reference for Guy. In the meantime, I discovered something interesting. We can blame tinker gnomes on Jeff Grubb! Shame on him!
 

Pseudoephedrine

Should be playing D&D instead
Sorry, I've been unexpectedly busy with a personal project the past two days (Guy, I owe you an email, my apologies!), but also stumbled across a link to some interesting claims by Gygax re: the early culture of the hobby as transmitted by James M:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/02/gygax-on-od-and-ad.html

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2020/09/od-as-non-game-again.html

I'm coming around to the possibility that "early period" RPGs - ranging from about 1970-1977 aren't a culture in themselves but that Gygax & TSR might have tried to put together a culture of play using the Holmes Basic set (1977) / the G series of modules (1978) (and follow-ups) / The Dragon after its first few issues (1976-) and AD&D 1e (1979-1981). The later Judges' Guild Journals too seem to firm up around this Gygaxian idea of play vs. the more anarchic conceptions in the early issues of 1976-1977. This is roughly contemporaneous with when Trad is forming (197:cool:, with both having key texts come out in 1981 (the AD&D 1e DMG, and Call of Cthulhu, respectively), tho' I think Gygax beats Hickman's start by about two years since he must've commissioned Holmes Basic in 1976 for it to come out summer '77.
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Sorry, I've been unexpectedly busy with a personal project the past two days (Guy, I owe you an email, my apologies!), but also stumbled across a link to some interesting claims by Gygax re: the early culture of the hobby as transmitted by James M:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2010/02/gygax-on-od-and-ad.html

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2020/09/od-as-non-game-again.html

I'm coming around to the possibility that "early period" RPGs - ranging from about 1970-1977 aren't a culture in themselves but that Gygax & TSR might have tried to put together a culture of play using the Holmes Basic set (1977) / the G series of modules (1978) (and follow-ups) / The Dragon after its first few issues (1976-) and AD&D 1e (1979-1981). The later Judges' Guild Journals too seem to firm up around this Gygaxian idea of play vs. the more anarchic conceptions in the early issues of 1976-1977. This is roughly contemporaneous with when Trad is forming (197:cool:, with both having key texts come out in 1981 (the AD&D 1e DMG, and Call of Cthulhu, respectively), tho' I think Gygax beats Hickman's start by about two years since he must've commissioned Holmes Basic in 1976 for it to come out summer '77.
The real question is how successful he was at this. If the comments in the "Gygax on OD&D and AD&D" post are any indication, his efforts had limited success. If only because of the amount of disagreement in the comments.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
There are dozens of types of "old-school" gamers, but two very large (if not the largest) subcategories in what is otherwise a sea of idiosyncratic low-pop splinters are "BTB guy" and "I play A/D&D because I've fixed it" guy. How fixed-it guy #1 fixed A/D&D is very rarely the same as fixed-it guy #2, and neither of them fixed it similarly to fixed-it guy #3.

But they can all unite around the banner that A/D&D needed to be fixed, and agreeing on that is much more important than having fixed it the same way. I've-fixed-it guys usually get along very well. I've rarely run into I've-fixed-it guys who didn't have - at best - a love-hate relationship with Gary Gygax, with unrelenting venom at worst. Gary was not very kind to the idea that AD&D (at minimum) needed to be fixed, something they took enormous pride in, and still do if forum posts on AD&D boards about nearly any AD&D topic are any indication. Someone can ask the most straightforward question that doesn't request houseruling from the gallery, and I've-fixed-it guy will introduce himself, take a couple of paragraphs to explain why the question is incomplete because it failed to identify the numerous flaws in AD&D's treatment of the subject at hand, and then use the question as a flimsy pretext to launch into 5,000 words about how he fixed this subject in his AD&D game (see link in sig for house rules doc).

Half the guys in that comment section are I've-fixed-it guys. The OSR started out as a clone movement to legal harbor the publishing of new campaign worlds and modules for rules people already had, and then...a singularity occurred. Scientists thought it was a new quasar or something, but it was actually simultaneous light bulbs popping above the heads of tens of thousands of balding I've-fixed-it guys all around the world who realized this was also the path to their publishing all their fixes and variant rules under a more prestigious moniker than "fantasy heartbreaker".

And thus the culture of early D&D was, in truth, recreated in the first 5 years of the OSR; a greying mirror of 1976-1981. Something started by BTB guys was flooded with I've-fixed-it guys. A new ruleset was released every other week; most never had an in-house module but assured everyone their game "is compatible with all adventures and other material created for any game named alliteratively and separated by an ampersand". A lesser number had one mod put out. Most lived and died like the thousands of baby turtles who all dig out of the sand at the same time trying to reach the sea - in silence.

The rhyming with history continued, as OSR-ites who remained standing or grew after 3 years were primarily the ones who got there the firstest with the mostest non-rules content. Just like in 1980, it almost didn't matter if you thought Powers and Perils was three sigmas better than D&D - P&P couldn't support its own rulebook with content. They didn't have enough money to get noticed except by hobby fanatics. They were entirely dependent on people reading Dragon magazine looking for something other-than, and seeing the one ad-buy they could make that might break-even with its cost. And so it was and is in the OSR - "that's just a fantastic rulebook, I think fixed-it-company-X did a wonderful job...I never play it, but I read it, and their treatment of the subject is really creative and fun".

"Dependent" is probably the best adjective to describe how the two most easily identifiable cultures in "early rules" fandom co-existed, and continue to co-exist. It isn't that there was one culture under one game; there was neither one culture nor one game. It wasn't symbiotic because neither wanted the other and btb people aren't looking for variants - they're looking for content to use with the rules they're not fixing. It's not really parasitic either - that's pejorative in a way that's neither fair nor accurate. But I've-fixed-it guys depend on something to fix. Until something arrives to be fixed they are Archimedes with a lever, and no earth. Because they can make a lever, but not an earth. Greenfielding is not their specialty.
 
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The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
We can blame tinker gnomes on Jeff Grubb! Shame on him!
Dude, did you like Ewoks when you were 10? They were pretty adorbz and heroic. Tinker Gnomes were also pretty great around then. We grow up and abandon our inner child. Similarly, half-elf rangers named Yanis were just the best for a couple of years. I'm sure I would've been fine with JarJar when I was that age as well. There, I said it.

I thankfully missed out on that whole drow ranger thing though...
 

The1True

My my my, we just loooove to hear ourselves don't we?
"BTB guy"
I laughed. I cried. It was better than Cats (the movie)! Remind me what BTB is?
I totally played in this one guy's Rolemaster/Thieves Guild hybrid for a couple weeks. Now I know the moniker to apply to him. He fixed it, and after I got boned out of a spectacular critical hit by one of RM's ridiculous critical charts, I went and found another game.
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@EOTB : So good! Deserves a post on your blog, seriously. Tell me, just between friends, did you roll your 18 wisdom using a straight 3d6? Insightful.

@The1True : By-The-Book (BTB)
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
Circling (WAY) back on AD&D thieves. I saw this post in an old K&KA thread
Mathew said:
Technically, the way it is supposed to work is that "party wins surprise, thief gets a back stab", but obviously that also depends on one of the enemies not seeing him and being within combat range. My impression is that a lot of game masters are not very liberal with back stab attempts, and seek to close them down to no good effect.
Something I need to remember to implement in my game. Surprise gives a backstab attempt in most cases. (I am such a sloppy DM.)
 

Two orcs

Officially better than you, according to PoN
I run that surprised, unaware, prone or restrained opponents can be backstabbed. The thief (and barber-surgeon which is a thief that heals instead of steals) aren't typically people who lurk in shadows to take down unaware sentries but rather people who are experts at safely finishing off monsters stuck in snares. The ACKS cleave rule interact wonderfully with backstab in the way that the thief is a mediocre fighter but assaulting an unaware group can net 4-5 kills.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
Dude, did you like Ewoks when you were 10? They were pretty adorbz and heroic.
Nine. I turned ten a few months after it was released. Close enough for government work. I didn't mind them but I was more interested in Han, Luke, and Leia. And explosions. More explosions!

Tinker Gnomes were also pretty great around then. We grow up and abandon our inner child. Similarly, half-elf rangers named Yanis were just the best for a couple of years.
*Tanis

I'm sure I would've been fine with JarJar when I was that age as well. There, I said it.

I thankfully missed out on that whole drow ranger thing though...
I didn't mind Jar Jar that much either. By that time I recognized that Star Wars was for kids and I was perfectly fine with that. I feel bad for his creator though. It didn't work out as intended.

And you can be any age to get into Drow rangers, I guess. True fact: there are kids out there named Drizz't. Really. Same with Anakin. I think that was an excuse to call their sons "Ani"
 

Beoric

8, 8, I forget what is for
Circling (WAY) back on AD&D thieves. I saw this post in an old K&KA thread

Something I need to remember to implement in my game. Surprise gives a backstab attempt in most cases. (I am such a sloppy DM.)
That certainly would have made it easier, but my DMs always took the position in surprise situations that I was not behind the opponent, and could not reasonably get behind the opponent during the surprise round.

I tried to play thieves, and then fighter/thieves, for years; I think some combination of thief was my default for maybe a decade. I believe I successfully got into position to backstab three times (and only hit once); it was rare enough that I actually vaguely remember those occasions. Eventually I realized that I wasn't even attempting any of the thief abilities anymore, because they never succeeded; I was just a fighter in shitty armor who could climb walls. It didn't help that if I missed a session my character usually died, because he was used to check for traps regularly and was always the scout, and the other players weren't nearly as careful as I was.
 

Malrex

So ... slow work day? Every day?
That certainly would have made it easier, but my DMs always took the position in surprise situations that I was not behind the opponent, and could not reasonably get behind the opponent during the surprise round.

I tried to play thieves, and then fighter/thieves, for years; I think some combination of thief was my default for maybe a decade. I believe I successfully got into position to backstab three times (and only hit once); it was rare enough that I actually vaguely remember those occasions. Eventually I realized that I wasn't even attempting any of the thief abilities anymore, because they never succeeded; I was just a fighter in shitty armor who could climb walls. It didn't help that if I missed a session my character usually died, because he was used to check for traps regularly and was always the scout, and the other players weren't nearly as careful as I was.

My mage/thief always fails to bring the glory on backstabs...usually miss, or do minimum damage. It's pretty laughable after setting up the whole ordeal for 3-5 rounds while everyone is fighting or doing something--I creep along to get in position. But I feel a mage/thief can usually survive at least 1 more additional round then a pure mage....and can do more than just a thief.

With 2e, I like the fact you can focus on a few skills so at least you are good at 1-2 things and shitty with the rest, instead of just shitty with everything (cept Climb Walls). Mage/thief is by far my favorite class combo though--so much utility and ways to escape as well as doing amazing things.

I found fighter/thieves to be harder to play for me...as I would find myself on the front line too often and get mowed down. I like the idea of them though, but they just turn out to be too heroic or something.

Cleric/thieves can be deadly...Hold Person, Silence, Sanctuary...there is a lot of cool spells, but overall I don't like cleric spells as much as mage spells. But when first starting out, the party doesn't usually like me asking for tithes for cure light wounds, or pickpocketing unconscious characters for tithing purposes as I save their miserable life. Ungrateful bastards. If the character survives without the party killing him in the first few sessions, and gets to know the party, then it's a pretty good combo as well and a good/loyal party member, but those first few sessions can be rough.

Backstab...in my opinion, is just not that great. That can vary WILDLY on the type of DM you have But too many times I have spent like 5 rounds setting up and moving silently/hidden through combat, only to be spotted before I strike, I miss, or I do minimum damage--and it could be true I just have the worst luck. But the fighters usually roll their eyes as they have been doing 3-5x the damage I've been doing while I move into position and connect one solid hit and all proud of myself....
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
In a typical 4-hour session with average combat opportunities, a thief should get at least one backstab attempt if they're halfways trying. If that truism isn't true, the DM should be turning coal into diamonds instead of playing games.
 
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