Theory - Questions and Salt

[Gus L.]

So I figure this is as good a spot as any to throw out the true questions of our times. Important stuff like: "Ascending or Descending AC", "Race as Class", "OD&D Austerity or GLOGian fecundity" and "CR - The Satan way into a TTRPGs?"

I will start of with a question I've been trying to work out.

Light - yeah every edition from OD&D to 5E has some oddly short oracular statements about how essential light is to the dungeon delver. Sure it's the key supply item depleted and the obvious horror of being trapped blind in a lightless maze filled with grues is evocative ... but ... nothing not even the Gygax DMG with it's endless blather about running adventures underwater and how Call Lightning works in mermanopolis bothers to discuss how one might deal with a party suddenly without light resources. Sure infravision, darkvision, light cantrips and willfully ignoring encumbrance all make light supply effectively a non-issue, but all are easy to fix.

What's not easy to fix is what to do at the table with a party that runs out of light?

A) Run that whole wandering blind in the dark with serious penalties to all actions until the party falls down a pit, gets murdered by carrion crawlers or manages to escape?

B) Save v. Death to avoid getting lost and eaten by carrion crawlers? Pretty this up with Jeff's old "Camping in the Dungeon" table?

C) Something Else?

Thoughts Anyone?

 

[Grützi]

Oh man thats a tough one

To A)
Seems tedious and not very fun at all. I can see the players getting frustated very quickly ... which is never a good thing.
A clever party could surely find some way to navigate in total darknes without falling into pits or such stuff. I could even imagine a party forming some kind of defense that allows them to effectively fight of animals and the like. But the moment something intelligent that has a way to "see" in the dark comes along ... well, the party is pretty much dead then. And even if they could somehow survive all this it would still be a stressfull and simply notvery fullfilling thing (for the players).

To B)
Abstracting the whole ordeal to some simple saves and checks removes the tedious parts from option A, but not everyone will be happy with having their agency in deciding what their character is doing taken away like that. One could of course "zoom out" and leave the roleplaying aspect a bit and take a more strategic-tabletop approach ... make a minigame out of it, if you will.
Add the partys dex, con, int and wis modifiers together and build a pool of d6 or something. The party can describe how they try to save their sorry asses and the DM will make them pay with the d6 for their actions. Everytime a dice is paid the player rolls it. A 1 gets you an encounter with something dangerous, 2 - 5 do nothing, 6 nets you a step towards safety or another light source.
So you pay with the dice for your actions, taking a risk of an encounter but also the chance to make progress everytime.
If the party runs out of dice they have to rest or are simply to exhausted and afraid to move on, if they produce a certain amount of sixes they get out of the darkness or find some source of light. If they roll too much ones they die a cold and dark death.

To C)
You could introduce some kind of bioluminescence that only gets active when there is no other light.
But let's be real here ... a party without light is pretty much dead meat. All their goals shift to surivival instantly and the best way to ensure their survival is to find a damned lightsource.

So the DM can either give them a fair chance to find another source of light or he can let them die in darkness.

 

[Melan]

Canonical version:
A) Remove their map and make them navigate by memory.
Not so canonical version:
B) The Table of Despair!

 

[Gus L.]

Yeah I think the mechanics are easy enough here.

A) I'm fascinated by the historical aversion to dealing with light source supply (it's much like encumbrance in that early editions insist it's really damn important and then make convoluted and impossible systems for it - which no one ever used) combined with the insistence through the editions (I haven't check 3.5 and 4E - and I won't, but I'd be interesting to hear what they say) that it's super super important and central to exploration to have light. So there's no real canononical version - and I thought the first one Melan suggests was the version, until I looked it up. It's one of those Gygaxian "MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGNS ... STRICT TIME" things where yes, the point is worth thinking about and likely true but the mechanics are so irksome that no one bothered. Yes I'm sure someone bothered, someone always bothers, because nerds - but most people didn't.

B) This historical elevation of light's necessity leads to an interesting thing when classic play is reinvented in the more or less present. People want supply and depletion rules - maybe it's just me - I want supply depletion rules! The terror of being trapped in a dark maze is lovely and visceral and I'd be game for playing through it. I also put way too many hours into Darkest Dungeon and always tried to get good at Ghosts N' Goblins so you know - fantasy masochism, but I do think there's a meaningful case to be made for making light a depleting resource in dungeon crawl games that delvers need to track. I think it's fun. The depletion and encumbrance mechanics can be easily solved, but I don't know there's an elegant way to deal with a loss of all light sources.

My own impulse would be to play through it and since I use and exploration die to track resource depeltion to simply replace the light exhaustion elements on the die with a "lost" condition where there's a table with a penalty for however many rooms the party is from the entrance. This would require at least a D8 and I suspect a D12 or D20 table so there's room for an always happy result at the top or maybe a D10 table expanded to 20 for being 10 rooms in and more likely to die horribly and come back as vengeful wights that will haunt the location - screwing over the replacement PCs as well. Yes I do love a TPK and the way it changes a location.

I'm totally curious though as to what others would do or have done when the lights go out.

 

[Grützi]

I honestly have to say, that I never ran into that problem. Either my players are to clever or I am to nice to them, but I never had a party in total darkness somewhere inside a dungeon.

If that situation would arise, how I handle it would depend on 3 things:

1. The players
If my players like a "survival-horror"-vibe and would get enjoyment out of something like crawling in the dark and such stuff, then I would probably play it out. Give the PCs penalties, let the players describe what their characters do .. all of that.
If my players have no interest in these things I would probably gloss it over or abstract it into some saves and checks ... maybe make a minigame out of it.

2. The layout
If the dungeon is manmade (or at least made by something intelligent), the party has a higher chance to understand its layout and thus a higher chance to escape or at least find a safe place (at least, thats what I think). So in a constructed dungeon I would make the penalties much less severe than in a natural dungeon (like a cave system).

3. The inhabitants and traps
The last factor I would consider are the inhabitants and the traps in the dungeon. If there are intelligent beings in the dungeon that can "see" in the dark and want the party dead, the whole thing will be much harder for the party. If there are only animals or uninteligent beings the party has it a bit easier. Traps are another thing to consider.

To summarize:
My players and their style and preferences would help me decide how I would run this (in detail or abstracted), The layout of the dungeon, its inhabitants and traps would set the base difficulty for survival.
Then I would modify that difficulty according to how deep the party is in the dungeon, how they behave and some other factors

 

[Slick]

I've never had it happen in any game I've ran, but the way I see it, given how crucial sight is for humans' understanding of their surroundings, a lack of light would lead to a lack of information more than anything. Besides the standard penalties to combat, etc., I would start giving my players vaguer descriptions, the general shapes and outlines of things, so that it's not exactly clear if something is a piece of furniture, or a statue, or a monster for example until they're right up next to it. Similar situation with things like traps. Normally springing a trap with no warning is really lame, but if the party has fucked up so royally that they are bumbling around in pitch darkness then that's enough of an excuse. Though generally it's better to have some parts of the dungeon include bits of natural illumination here and there so that the party isn't hugging the walls the entire time, even if it's very dim like glowing fungus, a distant skylight, etc. because I can see the argument for this approach getting boring after a while.

EDIT: I would also probably take whatever map they had away from them provided they had no means of reading it, as suggested above.

 

[bryce0lynch]

This has happened most commonly with FEAR in my game, and has resulted in multiple character deaths on several occasions. The "blind direction" shit, and so on, is what I turn to. It seems "more fun."

I started using a turn tracker about five years ago, which has really done a great job amping up the player and getting the feeling up like they are under the thumb of the time resource/light/wanderers.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/78618/The-Turntracker-Labyrinth-LordTM

What's the most fun way of dealing with no light, while sufferring consequences?

(And the table Melan posted reminds me of a different one, something like "What happens when you camp overnight int he dungeon." Same general idea; you done fucked up and there's a real possibility that you all gonna die.)

 

[Gus L.]

See this is my core interest in light supply and by its extension the effects of light exhaustion. Supply (seemingly limited to light and water/food/exhaustion) are a neglected way of building tension in an exploration game. They depend on annoying/distracting tracking though (encumbrance and timekeeping) to function in any meaningful way. A party carrying 200 flasks of oil never worries about running out and a single torch burns forever if there's no timekeeping mechanic.

Timekeeping, Resource Depletion and Random Encounters are a really nice set of mechanics/practices that keep an exploration game tense. Because time is itself a resource or risk (supply depletes and random monsters create risk) caution (10' poling everything for example) becomes a risk management exercise. The party can spend 20 turns checking for every possible trap in a hallway or a couple rooms - but they'll be tired, hungry, low on supply and likely injured from having encountered to many wanderers. Alternatively they can plunge ahead recklessly and maybe get crushed by falling rocks or ambushed by a Vrock.

 

[Slick]

Supply (seemingly limited to light and water/food/exhaustion) are a neglected way of building tension in an exploration game. They depend on annoying/distracting tracking though (encumbrance and timekeeping) to function in any meaningful way.

I suppose the trick is making the tracking of supplies less annoying/distracting, then. I'm familiar with (and use) the common solutions like LotFP-style "significant item" inventory, but I'm not sure how to make encumbrance even easier than that without devolving into some kind of minigame.

 

[Gus L.]

Oh there are very much ways to do this: STR = Items carried (with minor bundling of course) and an Exploration Die (aka Overloaded Encounter Die) eliminate most timekeeping and encumbrance chores and make for a very clear risk economy.

 

[bryce0lynch]

Well, we know that "YOU CAN NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL CAMPAIGN IF STRICT TIME RECORDS ARE NOT KEPT"

But, the development here seems to be of tension. This slots in to two other thoughts: 1-"lighter games" and 2-"boardgamey."

DCC, (B/X without resources?) have a lighter style, because of the pull-back of the resources management issues. They become less exploration games and more Just Fucking Around for Fun games.

And I think I'm using "exploration" maybe a stand in for something for boardgamey. It seems like resource gold=xp has a more "you can win!" vibe then other types of D&D. The challenges seem more real and the success more sweet. You are playing against the game world with the Judge as neutral party.

Hmmm, and now a third point. There seem to be a plethora of ways to make the Papers & Paychecks game less onerous, as you cite, STR-ITEMS and Encounter Die Overload. I'm not sure I've seen a system for upkeep cash? (Hirelings, etc probably deserve their own summary table with their key stuff listed for ease of rolling, rather than an abstraction system.)

 

[Zach]

For upkeep costs, I suspect that the solution lies more in physical aids for information tracking than in changing the rules, like how a turn tracking wheel doesn't alter any rules but greatly improves the DM's ability to use the mechanics.
Personally, I prefer to shy away from upkeep costs for hirelings in general and use a shareholder system. This integrates payment into the standard treasure splitting process.
For domain management, I do something closer to a feudal obligation based system. You can hire workers to build a castle, they'll expect the party to provide safety and food and let them build houses at the base of the castle.
The whole pay someone a flat rate for a day's labor thing is surprisingly modern and doesn't allow for interesting roleplaying like more feudal or pre-feudal payment systems do.

 

[Gus L.]

The way I do upkeep cash is by making it beneficial. The PCs can murder-hobo if they want - sleep in the woods, dig for grubs, and sort through trash heaps for snacks if they like. They can also live well. Even sleeping indoors and eating decent fare (say 10 GP each per session) gives a little something at the start of the next session - +1 HP or something. More decadent lifestyles of sybritic 500 GP per session opulence grant things like a reroll.

For broader upkeep issues I think it's helpful to have GP=XP spent, because at that point the PCs will want to pay upkeep - likewise I tend to make leveling henchmen something you have to pay for - that is it costs 2,000 GP or whatever to train a henchman into a Level 1 fighter. Most hirelings are really cheap - orphans, bums, drug addicts etc that you hire for 5GP, but who won't fight. For all henchmen you can hire 1 if have a CHR over 15 or if you have a positive relationship with some organization that has henchmen available (a beggar gang say) because most people don't go into the mythic underworld. All this is of course highly setting dependent.

Real henchmen - the active secondary PC style henchmen are only available is you A) rescue or otherwise gain a follower through play B) Hire someone from a faction you have a strong positive relationship with C) train up your vagabond hireling or D) There really aren't enough players at the table.

Other sorts of hirelings: mercenaries, mule skinners and such can be hired but they refuse to go into dungeons - great for guarding camp or whatever - but not willing to help plunder the Tomb of Bloody Souls.

 

[Slick]

Piggybacking on Gus's response, there are also all sorts of NPC's who can offer services in exchange for roughly henchman-like wages but aren't actually part of the party's retinue, staying put in the various safe havens instead. Sages to divine the nature of magic items or help with arcane riddles, spies who can gather information on targets to blackmail/swindle, doctors who can speed up the rate of natural healing between sessions, etc.

Figure out the things that the players seem to be wanting on a regular basis (especially given old-school games' lack of crafting/downtime skills) and consider adding an NPC who can do it for them at a price. They aren't flat upkeep costs, but the players will likely be using at least one of their services every session so functionally it serves a similar role.

 

[Two orcs]

I solved the light issue by making light use more realistic.
1) Torches suck as light sources. They are heavy and only last 1 hour and they blind everyone looking at them. The point of a torch is to set things on fire or to provide reliable throwable light.
2) Oil lamps are great. A pint of oil lasts a full day. You don't blind or burn your party member by accident.

Light sources don't run out in normal timeframes. The challenge of carrying enough torches is trivial since you can just hire 1 man who does nothing but. Light is gone when the party becomes wet, when monsters smash the lamps, evil spirits drinks the oil or a separation trap cuts off your shield using vanguard from the lamp bearing back ranks. Tumbling down a chute or pit also risk putting the lamp out, or smashing it outright.

 

[Gus L.]

Two Orcs - I don't think that's solving the light issue in the manner I'm looking at - rather the very popular - removing the light issue. The entire point tracking supplies is that they represent meanigful choice and relate to risk. I'm exaggerating a bit but when there's no need to bother with supply, there's less reason to bother with encumbrance, and so a decreased need for timekeeping. At an intermediate stage you're left with only the random encounter as a risk and player HP and spells as the only resources of note - this tends to make exploration less interesting and it becomes an annoying delay from the locus of play - combat. At this point why not just create a really complex combat system and write linear path adventures?

 

[Two orcs]

As I said, the logistical challenge in the base game is trivial. Hire 1 henchman who does nothing but carry torches and you won't have to worry unless he is separated from the group.

 

[bryce0lynch]

J'accuse!

Counterpoint: Hirelings don't go in the dungeon and henchmen eat your XP? (Or do I have that wrong? I can't keep the fucking dudes straight.)

DAB4 – Henchmen & Hirelings (12) – Otherworld Miniatures

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Bryce, j'accuse!

Counter-counterpoint: Rule 0 - the game is supposed to be fun. If the party ain't having fun with managing torches and "light logistics", then streamline that shit and move on with play.

The game is only as complicated as the DM makes it.

 

[bryce0lynch]

Point of Order!
Site Rules now updated with "J'Accuse 0" - The DM is always right. The game is supposed to be fun and the DM can do what they want to make it fun. The DM's job is to bring the game to life.

Ad Hominem Attack: You and my teenage daughter are the only two people I've ever seen use Simpsons art.