General Discussion

[Beoric]

4e monsters are often written as way weaker than their counterparts in any other game. So swapping in an existing monster usually doesn't work. I can re-write the monster, but I still need to know how tough the encounter is supposed to be in order to make that estimate.

I'm not necessarily throwing deadly encounters at the players. I have found that in newer editions, "deadly" encounters usually mean there is a (for the edition) unacceptably high risk of killing PCs. I assume that risk to be around 50%, maybe a little better. So I use that to assess how tough a monster is (eg, this 5e orc is equivalent to a 4e level 3 elite monster, and effectively equal to a 4e level 3 PC). Then I build a monster of equivalent toughness using 4e rules, and just use it like I would use any other monster.

So for instance, a 0e or Basic orc is like a 4e level 3 standard monster, a 1e or 3e orc is like a 4e level 4 standard monster, and a 5e orc is like a 4e level 7 standard monster. So if I am running a Basic module like B2, I know I can use a level 3 orc whenever one appears in that module, or any other Basic module, and it will give a similar experience to players to the experience they would have if I was running it in Basic. And if I have the common monsters already built, and tokens programmed for them, I can run pretty much any module on the fly.

 

[The1True]

So for instance, a 0e or Basic orc is like a 4e level 3 standard monster, a 1e or 3e orc is like a 4e level 4 standard monster, and a 5e orc is like a 4e level 7 standard monster.

This sounds bazonic. I feel like an orc is your standard, platonic lvl 1 monster in all editions. Like it's the bog standard that all other monsters are calibrated against.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

It honestly sounds like your converting project is a huge effort for minimal payoff - why not just build all your monsters in 4e from the get-go and nix the conversions? It's not like people are going to compare the two side-by-side.

 

[Beoric]

This sounds bazonic. I feel like an orc is your standard, platonic lvl 1 monster in all editions. Like it's the bog standard that all other monsters are calibrated against.

Encounter building in 4e is much more granular, and more precisely calibrated, than any other edition. Also, monsters are built using different rules than PCs.

So the basic conversion is a level 1 fighter in edition 0e, 1e, B+, 2e, 3e or 5e is the equivalent of a level 2 character in 4e, for reasons that aren't worth getting into. Level 1 is more or less an apprentice level, like UA cavaliers used to have.

The other thing is that a 4e level x PC is roughly equivalent to a 4e level x elite monster. And one level x elite monster is equivalent to two level x standard monsters.

So, assuming characters are not particularly optimized, here is the baseline equivalency: one non-4e level 1 PC = one 4e level 2 PC = one 4e level 2 elite monster = two 4e level 2 standard monsters. Where "not particularly optimized" in 1e means your aren't using UA rules.

Like 3e and 5e, 4e encounter building guidelines skew toward not particularly dangerous fights. So a level 1 encounter for a party of 4 PCs could include four level 1 standard kobolds, which group has half the power of four level 1 PCs. Whereas a group of eight level 1 standard kobolds would have a roughly even chance of winning against a party of four level 1 PCs.

So a 4e level 3 standard orc is still less powerful than a 4e level 1 PC by a significant margin, maybe 3:4. But a level 3 elite monster would be much more powerful than a level 1 PC, say 6:4.

It works out like this:

4e level 8 minion monster (88 XP) = one 3e kobold, or one 3e CR 1/4 monster
4e level 1 standard monster (100 XP) = one 1e kobold, or ~1.1 3e kobolds
4e level 2 standard monster (125 XP) = one 1e or 5e bandit, or one 3e goblin warrior, or one 3e CR 1/3 monster
4e level 3 standard monster (150 XP) = one 1e goblin
4e level 4 standard monster (175 XP) = one 1e orc, one 5e goblin, or one 3e CR 1/2 monster
4e level 5 standard monster (200 XP) = one 1e hobgoblin, or one 4e level 1 elite monster, or one 4e level 1 PC
4e level 6 standard monster (250 XP) = one 1e or 3e gnoll, or one 3e CR 1 creature, or one 4e level 2 elite monster, or one 4e level 2 PC
4e level 7 standard monster (300 XP) = one 5e orc, hobgoblin or gnoll, or one 4e level 3 elite monster, or one 4e level 3 PC
4e level 8 standard monster (350 XP) = one 3e bugbear, or one 3e CR 2 monster, or one 4e level 4 elite monster, or one 4e level 4 PC

According to 4e encounter building guidelines, for a party of four level 2 PCs (equivalent to level 1 in any other edition), an easy encounter would have monsters worth roughly 88-100 XP per PC, say 4 1e or 3e kobolds for a 4 PC party. Which is pretty easy.

A standard encounter would have 125-150 XP of monsters per level 2 PC. So say 5-6 1e kobolds, or 4 1e bandits, for a party of 4 level 2 PCs.

A hard encounter would have 175-200 XP of monsters per level 2 PC. So 7-10 1e kobolds, or 6-8 1e bandits, or 6-8 3e goblins, or 5-6 1e goblins, or 4-5 1e orcs or hobgoblins, or 3-4 1e gnolls, for a party of 4 level 2 PCs. The higher end of that range is very dangerous for the party if they haven't been conserving resources.

 

[Beoric]

It honestly sounds like your converting project is a huge effort for minimal payoff - why not just build all your monsters in 4e from the get-go and nix the conversions? It's not like people are going to compare the two side-by-side.

I am building them in 4e, I just want to have them at the same power level as the equivalent in another edition.

For instance, your average hobgoblin in 4e is a level 3 standard monster, which is significantly weaker per PC than a 0e/Basic/1e hobgoblin. So if I am converting a 0e/Basic/1e module, say Keep on the Borderlands, and just swap one 4e hobgoblin for every Basic hobgoblin, the encounter is significantly less challenging than in the original.

An easy fix for this is to take the 4e level 3 hobgoblin and add 2 to its defenses, attack rolls, and damage rolls, and add 16 hp. That effectively turns it into a 4e level 5 standard monster, which makes it equivalent to a 1e hobgoblin.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

An easy fix for this is to take the 4e level 3 hobgoblin and add 2 to its defenses, attack rolls, and damage rolls, and add 16 hp.

I mean, that's basically what I was suggesting...

Personally, I get the best conversion results by assigning comparative AC, HP, and damage output to a similar existing creature at that level. All the rest is flavor and tactics.

 

[Beoric]

I mean, that's basically what I was suggesting...

Right, but in order to do that, I needed to know that a 1e hobgoblin was equivalent to a 4e level 5 standard. Which, in 5e, I can determine up to CR13 or so using 5e's own rules. But what is a 5e CR 17 monster equivalent to? I dunno, because 5e doesn't even tell me how tough that is in 5e. At least in the DMG. Which is why I am looking for an extended table.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Which, in 5e, I can determine up to CR13 or so using 5e's own rules. But what is a 5e CR 17 monster equivalent to? I dunno, because 5e doesn't even tell me how tough that is in 5e.

There are four CR17 monsters in the Monster Manual - Adult Gold Dragons, Adult Red Dragons, Androsphinx, and Dragon Turtles. A CR17 monster is meant to be equivalent in strength to a party of four 17th-level player characters.

Hit points for all four are 256/256/199/341
Armor clases are 19/19/17/20
Assuming 1 out of every 3 attacks misses, damage average per turn are (roughly) 34/34/34/42 dmg (the hit modifiers are +14/+14/+12/+13)

So a CR17 5e monster has anywhere from 199 to 341hp, from AC17 to AC20, and does between 34 to 42 damage per round on average.

For reference, a control Bugbear of CR1 has 27hp, 16AC, and does roughly 11 damage on an average hit (at +4 to-hit).

So you can compare the average monster stats to the average player stats (by level), find an equivalent value in 4e terms, and you can adjust accordingly.

FYI, the table on page 274 of the 5e DMG might be extremely handy for you right now - average stats for monsters up to CR30. Same with the "Experience Points by Challenge Rating" table on the next page that also goes up to CR30.

 

[Beoric]

I finally got around to putting my thoughts on hex travel to paper, and I thought I would share. It, uh, got a bit more involved than I originally intended and is kind of rambly, but I think once somebody groks it they can get along with the last two pages as a reference sheet.

EDIT: Note I cooked the visibility modifiers to make the chances of getting lost fall within the ranges established by 0e, 1e, B/X and BECMI, so the results would be comparable. I will probably depart from those as I test the system and think about my own assumptions/experience regarding overland travel on foot and by horse.

I also note I didn't include anything on encounter distance. I will look at that when I get a chance.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

I'm impressed, but fucking hell, 8 pages of instructions just for walking around? You homebrew guys really like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.

 

[Beoric]

These aren't playtested, so critiques are welcome.

 

[Beoric]

I'm impressed, but fucking hell, 8 pages of instructions just for walking around? You homebrew guys really like swatting flies with a sledgehammer.

You try writing out procedures in a comprehensible way! Plus, there are a lot of examples, and I use variations on the same table over and over as I worked though my process. I could probably cut a lot of that out and just leave the final table.

 

[squeen]

Thanks for sharing this @Beoric!

 

[DangerousPuhson]

You try writing out procedures in a comprehensible way!

I don't really write out my homebrew rules because they are inherent/intuitive to me the DM (and also because they are so straightforward there wouldn't be much point), but you do you. It's a cool, worthwhile endeavor - I'm not saying it isn't.

I just find it a bit amusing how people will decry modern editions out one side of their mouth for being too codified with not enough "ruling flexibility" to allow for certain styles of play, and then out the other side of their mouth they create endless streams of "rules for duelists" or "how to arbitrate town social factions" or "lite-hacks" or what have you, often far longer than anything written as RAW. I'm just firmly in the K.I.S.S. camp on this.

 

[Beoric]

I ran across a good article on monsters not having to stay in their rooms in the dungeon. I would add to this the possibility that a monster might not be in the room when the party gets there - and will then be interested in tracking down the thieves who stole their stash.

I use the 1e "% in lair" stats to figure this out. Sometimes, if there are enough monsters in a room, I will break them into squads and roll for each squad separately, so some fraction of the monsters will be at home, with another faction out patrolling, or whatever.

 

[The1True]

That goes back to the concept of replacing the Encounters Table with a Dungeon Roster, so most or all of the Encounters are linked to a room #. Makes the dungeon dynamic. Doesn't work in gauntlet or funhouse dungeons where the monsters are fixed to rooms due to setpiece or summoning situations, though. Also get's messy in larger dungeons where there are zillions of monsters.

 

[Beoric]

Also get's messy in larger dungeons where there are zillions of monsters.

This is why I like VTTs with the whole dungeon in them, it lets you see exactly who is close to what, so you can improvise without having to draw up an order of battle for every conceivable situation. I don't like the late 3e and all of 4e tendency to abstract the spaces between battle maps, usually in a linear fashion. To me, the whole dungeon level is a battle map.

 

[Beoric]

So, this is one of the effects from the Ceremony spell in 5e Xanatar's Guide to Everything:

Wedding. You touch adult humanoids willing to be bonded together in marriage. For the next 7 days, each target gains a +2 bonus to AC while they are within 30 feet of each other. A creature can benefit from this rite again only if widowed. [Emphasis mine.]

Imma just leave this here and see what happens.

 

[DangerousPuhson]

Imma just leave this here and see what happens.

Wedding Ceremony is famously stupid. It's basically a meme at this point. I have yet to encounter a player that abuses it though.

 

[squeen]

It begs to be abused.