The state of Post-OSR content

[Beoric]

I don't remember exactly where I read this, but one of EGG's admonitions of the West-Coasters was that in his campaign they had been playing for years longer and no one was much above name level, where as the Beavers crowd had gotten much higher in a fraction of the time.

I feel like this is unlikely if you playing regularly and are using GP=XP, unless you are encountering a lot of undead.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

I feel like this is unlikely if you playing regularly and are using GP=XP, unless you are encountering a lot of undead.

Squeen is correct. It's in that April 1976 issue of Strategic Review I keep on bringing up, in the second article talking shit about D&B in that issue. Gygax specifically says level 14 IIRC is the highest anyone has gotten to in either Greyhawk or Blackmoor, and anyone operating beyond that level, like D&B, probably isn't respecting the challenge the game is supposed to pose.

 

[EOTB]

Even the Greyhawk and Blackmoor campaigns are meteoric in pace as compared to most campaigns today. I see DM's fretting about advancement being too fast, and/or being too generous in treasure or magic, because they apply Gygax's admonitions without any concept of the ludicrous speed advancement and rewards of the group's actually being admonished.

It's a small percentage of old school campaigns today, I think, that can bring themselves to play a level where they'd advance to 14th level in the same number of sessions. And then they'd get called "munchkin" by those poking along in the purported sweet spot.

 

[Malrex]

Level 14......

I get pretty bored after Level 8-9 with my characters and usually wish to start over.

I think it would be interesting to write an adventure for higher level because I think they are a rarity, but not sure I have the experience to do a quality job.

 

[Osrnoob]

Level 14......

I get pretty bored after Level 8-9 with my characters and usually wish to start over.

I think it would be interesting to write an adventure for higher level because I think they are a rarity, but not sure I have the experience to do a quality job.

What are the best ones?

 

[Malrex]

What are the best ones?

Honestly, I have no clue.

1 dragon can be scary....higher level adventure and add 2-3 more dragons? I find that boring. Or 3-4 beholders..or whatever. Seems lazy to me. I've read a few (not that many) and wasn't impressed. Is there a good one out there?
I've never really played in a high level adventure (10+) so I have no idea what's good or bad. But I'd rather fight THE Dragon, rather than 3-4 dragons..

 

[EOTB]

I mean, I’m sure the dragon would rather fight THE hero, the one everyone already sings the praises of, rather than 4-6 mid-range rooks still on the upswing...where’s the glory in taking out the trash?

Combat is also a puzzle, appealing to different centers of the brain and requiring different talents and skills. Only this puzzle increases in both difficulty and demands upon players’ capacities the more it’s diffused.

The advantages in diffusion is why the party exists as the primary engagement unit, why multi-classes are suppressed vertically, and why the burden of silo’d, rigid archetypes gives way to potency once the numerical demands required to form a whole are met.

At high level part of the challenge comes from giving up the advantages of many capable parts acting independently on outnumbered queens shorn of their pawns

 

[squeen]

I am going to riding both sides of the fence here. Again, I have an antiquated perspective. None of this really applies to the modern game. You probably should save yourself the effort and skip it if that's your bag---it's all "Tales from the Crypt", so to speak.

I feel like this is unlikely if you playing regularly and are using GP=XP, unless you are encountering a lot of undead.

I don't think so. At home, we played roughly weekly/biweekly for 2-3 hours. After 8 years, no one has made it to name level. Highest is a 9th-level MU. There have been a few set-backs, but I wouldn't call it highly-lethal either. Far from it.

Consider Greyhawk & Blackmoor were likely more than weekly, but only had been going at it for, what?....2 years? before Gygax wrote the letter @Pseudoephedrine mentions that lambasts the D&B crowd. It couldn't have been much longer after that (another year? 1977-78?) when he hit the reset button and wrote T1/Hommlet/ToEE only to have Kuntz's existing high-level Greyhawk character (Robliar) come in and trash things. That was also around the time Kuntz had gotten bored (i.e. insufficient challenge) such that he decided to "try being evil for awhile". Those two things (campaign reset & turning evil) are red flags to me that things are starting to fall apart in GH game-wise.

I also suspect EGG was about as lethal as I am (since we both were playing with our younger kids...).

As a player: My good DM's world proved far more deadly than mine, but level advancement could also be far quicker. In the "big outside world" things progressed fairly slowly, but in his Mythic Underworld "one-way dungeon" (you go in and the only way out is by finishing it) progression was much faster. I think my most successful magic-user made it to 16th(?) level before he died. (...and there was a relatively rapid advancement near the very end as things got nasty.)

We loved his One-Way because there was a ton of treasure and you could find amazing stuff that would shoot you up in levels faster...but no one ever made it out the other side. (...but is had towns, castles, etc. in there, like Operation Unfathomable, so no one cared.) Also, he was a master of keeping things challenging. Sure, after maybe a year or so of weekly play you might make it up to name level (in the One-Way)---but never did you feel secure. You were always hanging on for dear life and running away scared. It wasn't tricks, traps, or Tucker Kobolds---just well crafted opponents and scenarios (and dangerous stuff we couldn't resist tinkering with. High risk = high reward).

In many ways, we played like Huso writes about his high-level game (which took him 5-6 years to reach its apex?). All those levels, all those magic-items...they couldn't save you because the second you played dumb---WHAM!. We never saw the real Dark Lord, because there were too many "local Dark Lords" in the way. Rappan Athuk similarities abound.

As a DM: I tell my kids: in the outside world it's low magic. You have to go into the forgotten corners of the world that haven't been plunder for the really amazing stuff. There are no 100,000 GP treasures in easy reach, and all the forgotten artifacts are...well...FORGOTTEN (for a reason). The few times they have "gone deep", they immediately high-tailed it back to the surface world and then lingered there for long periods because they like walking around being insta-big-shots. Eventually, they seek challenge again out of boredom, but they know there is stuff in the dark corners of the world that will f***k you up---and they are scared of losing what they have gained.

You hear that Malrex? --- almost name level...and scared of going back into the dungeon. Both the known and unknown of what's down there gives them the willies.

Down there, it's easy-come but also easy-go. The party is suppose to tear through their precious resources in the dungeon (and rapidly reacquire). Favorite magic-items get zonked. Things explode. <Click> out-of-charges...throw away your staff (or else snap it in two and hope the explosion takes out the baddie along with you). But in return there are also Spell-Machines. Forges building K'walshish-like Apparatti. Potions and grimoires that boost you a level. New and unusual spells. Genies granting wishes. Artifacts that stop time. (All strictly By-the-Book as-intended!)

Well....is it worth the risk? Do ya' feel lucky?

I think it was 3 years of overland travel (finding the mega-dungeon) to go from 3rd to 5th level. They entered the mega-dungeon and in one summer walked out as 7-9th. They then majorly back-tracked into "safe territory" and haven't gone up but a single level in 2 years (of reduced play frequency because of college). Now they are on a side trip (hopefully to G1!), and then it's back to the real threats in the mega-dungeon (where they left some of their henchmen & allies waiting). And all-the-while, a storm has been brewing and the levy is about to break in their low-magic "safe zone". (Time Keeping = meaningful campaign, says EGG!)

This is why I frequently disagree with Bryce's criteria about having enough treasure in old-school adventures for GP=XP. Tough titties if you don't level---all that means is that the risk was insufficient (or it just didn't make in-game sense for there to be any real treasure there!). PC "goals" are self-selected---my players want to accomplish things in the world that give them some sort of prestige or fulfills an obligation. "I did THIS!", they tell each big-shot NPC they meet---who usually approach our party like: "Who the hell do you all think you are?". My players then brag to them. Silly if you think about it---it's just me behind the NPC mask, and I already know everything they've done.

So, it's not just about gaining levels. Heck, after name-level---if you aren't a spell-caster---going up a level pretty much gets you +1-hp. (AD&D was/is a such a masterclass of balanced design!).

And if you are a magic-user...where the heck are you going to find those 7-9th level spells, eh? They are not in your local library! Better head into Other Planes and/or Dial-A-Lich. Everything you want becomes an epic quest to achieve. Session after session of little-to-no-reward as you chase your White Whale.

Is this domain play? I'd say "no". (...but there are armies...and big battles...kings, nobles, factions, and intrigue.) Truth is Blackmoor has never resonated with me like Greyhawk. I think the former is where I'd look for an exemplar of domain-style play.

Even the Greyhawk and Blackmoor campaigns are meteoric in pace as compared to most campaigns today. I see DM's fretting about advancement being too fast, and/or being too generous in treasure or magic, because they apply Gygax's admonitions without any concept of the ludicrous speed advancement and rewards of the group's actually being admonished.

It's a small percentage of old school campaigns today, I think, that can bring themselves to play a level where they'd advance to 14th level in the same number of sessions. And then they'd get called "munchkin" by those poking along in the purported sweet spot.

I think I touched on these points. I fretted, and didn't allow them to rush things. But now we are "almost there", and it was worth the wait. The SCOPE of their adventures is far better for having had patience. You will never be able to change my mind about that (because I know I'm 99.9% right). --- Delayed gratification. Always hungry. Two steps forward, one step back. Celebrate the small victories.

In short: Dangle carrots just out of reach. That's one-half of the DM's job.

What's more, I think our progression was about on-par with Greyhawk---because they played more often. Dungeons & Beavers was like every knuckle-headed middle-school/high-school group I knew that would get to 15th level (multi-classed) in two-dozen sessions. Gygax was right: That's total Monty Haul BS.

Back to Prince's original point: OK...now who's fighting gods? Neither I nor their PC's will live long enough for that to ever happen.

 

[Osrnoob]

Honestly, I have no clue.

1 dragon can be scary....higher level adventure and add 2-3 more dragons? I find that boring. Or 3-4 beholders..or whatever. Seems lazy to me. I've read a few (not that many) and wasn't impressed. Is there a good one out there?
I've never really played in a high level adventure (10+) so I have no idea what's good or bad. But I'd rather fight THE Dragon, rather than 3-4 dragons..

I don't know either, Bryce always talks about the mythic high level adventure his list has a couple at 8 or 9th level like rosewood highlands but there has to be other good stuff besides G1 and underdark nasties.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

Even the Greyhawk and Blackmoor campaigns are meteoric in pace as compared to most campaigns today.

Definitely so! In the very same article Gygax mentions that the expectation for a PC in those games is to be playing 50-70 sessions of D&D annually. And while he doesn't say how long sessions last, my understanding from other sources (like Rob Kuntz interviews) is that these sessions were by default well over 4 hours long each.

I think Gygax was probably running at least twice a week in the early days, so when I think of him talking about the value of long campaigns, and the need to maintain challenge over time, I try to bear in mind that he's operating from a conception of producing 400-800 hours worth of play annually. By contrast, the 4 hour biweekly sessions that seem more common nowadays provide about 104 hours worth of play annually.

 

[squeen]

Definitely so! In the very same article Gygax mentions that the expectation for a PC in those games is to be playing 50-70 sessions of D&D annually. And while he doesn't say how long sessions last, my understanding from other sources (like Rob Kuntz interviews) is that these sessions were by default well over 4 hours long each.

I think Gygax was probably running at least twice a week in the early days, so when I think of him talking about the value of long campaigns, and the need to maintain challenge over time, I try to bear in mind that he's operating from a conception of producing 400-800 hours worth of play annually. By contrast, the 4 hour biweekly sessions that seem more common nowadays provide about 104 hours worth of play annually.

I may be mistaken, but I think the bi-weekly session were 2 separate groups of players. That just puts the PCs at roughly at 2x, but Gygax (in terms of experience running games) at 4x.

If that pace continued---even after we was wearing his TSR "business man" hat---then from 1972 (witnesses Arneson's Blackmoor) to 1979 (1e DMG published) he would have played 28-years of D&D by today's standards.

 

[Malrex]

I don't know either, Bryce always talks about the mythic high level adventure his list has a couple at 8 or 9th level like rosewood highlands but there has to be other good stuff besides G1 and underdark nasties.

Actually, I enjoyed Huso's Geir Loe Cyn-crul, level 12 I think? It's kind of a hack fest and there is some multiple dragons, etc..but there was something about it that I enjoyed reading--never played it. I think I like the idea of the huge caverns/passageways.
I have Huso's City of Brass, but haven't delved into it yet.

 

[Pseudoephedrine]

I may be mistaken, but I think the bi-weekly session were 2 separate groups of players. That just puts the PCs at roughly at 2x, but Gygax (in terms of experience running games) at 4x.

Yeah, it's a bit unclear to me as well. I think it was two main groups, but people could and would play characters in both and sometimes jump between one group and another. There were also special sessions on top of these, such as Robilar's solo conquest of the Tomb of Horrors.

If that pace continued---even after we was wearing his TSR "business man" hat---then from 1972 (witnesses Arneson's Blackmoor) to 1979 (1e DMG published) he would have played 28-years of D&D by today's standards.

It's unclear to me how much he's actually playing after 1976 (when the comment I quoted is from), but while the exact # may be unrecoverable, it is definitely a significant multiple of how much modern players are playing. I've played in a 400 hr game (weekly 8 hour sessions for one year) and an 800 hr game (the same for two years), and reflecting on their flow and progression over time has been very productive for me.

 

[PrinceofNothing]

What are the best ones?

Try Barrier Peaks. Or Act II & III of Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Instinctively support Malrex's mentioning of Huso but I have not personally checked him out.

 

[Beoric]

Squeen is correct. It's in that April 1976 issue of Strategic Review I keep on bringing up, in the second article talking shit about D&B in that issue. Gygax specifically says level 14 IIRC is the highest anyone has gotten to in either Greyhawk or Blackmoor, and anyone operating beyond that level, like D&B, probably isn't respecting the challenge the game is supposed to pose.

Oh, I'm not doubting that he said it, or even that he did it. I just think he either didn't strictly allow GP=XP, or there was a lot of level loss to undead and various tricks.

But I am also forgetting his cap-on-xps-until-you-train, which must have resulted in a lot of wasted XPs.

I don't think so. At home, we played roughly weekly/biweekly for 2-3 hours. After 8 years, no one has made it to name level. Highest is a 9th-level MU. There have been a few set-backs, but I wouldn't call it highly-lethal either. Far from it.

Ok, but haven't you told us before that your players are uber-cautious?

I tell my kids: in the outside world it's low magic. You have to go into the forgotten corners of the world that haven't been plunder for the really amazing stuff. There are no 100,000 GP treasures in easy reach, and all the forgotten artifacts are...well...FORGOTTEN (for a reason). The few times they have "gone deep", they immediately high-tailed it back to the surface world and then lingered there for long periods because they like walking around being insta-big-shots. Eventually, they seek challenge again out of boredom, but they know there is stuff in the dark corners of the world that will f***k you up---and they are scared of losing what they have gained.

Right, I thought so.

All I'm saying is that regular play using GP=XP and regular dungeon delves is likely to move you up quicker than he is suggesting, unless you contrive to take away levels or find other ways to slow progression. I actually prefer slow progression, so I get why OSR players might want to do this, and why squeen might want to limit treasure. But my favourite DM as a kid didn't award XP for GP and I still think we moved faster than this.

EDIT: Although now that I think about it, we were light on level-draining undead, and we didn't stop collecting XPs while awaiting training.

 

[squeen]

What are the best ones?

You should consider authoring you own stuff. I beleive it's the best and only sustainable solution.

Maybe there are so few high-level adventure products available because simple greed is not enough to motivate a high-level party to take big risks. The things that do are more likely to be wrapped up in the world-campaign. Perhaps that's why it's hard to make a "drop in" dungeon work in that context.

 

[squeen]

All I'm saying is that regular play using GP=XP and regular dungeon delves is likely to move you up quicker than he is suggesting, unless you contrive to take away levels or find other ways to slow progression.

Just a stray thought along these lines: over-cautious play should have it's downside, but aggressive play should also result in more deaths. The proverbial burning twice-as-bright, but for only half-as-long.

Somewhere there is a sweet spot.

That said, I imagine a DM is far less likely to punish reckless play (killing higher-level players is emotionally taxing), whereas it takes no effort to just let over-cautious play punish itself.

BUT...of course casual players want their cake (levels/success) and to eat it too (low risk)---and that's where we get some of the player-catering alterations to the game that have slowly crept in. A partial list is: XP != GP and frequent leveling, push-back against PC death, more abilities that automatically unlock with leveling without in-game effort (i.e. freebies), etc. All of which disrupt the rhythm of the original game to some extent and make for a very different long-term experience (admittedly one that others might enjoy more, but is still different). At the very least, it certainly moves that risk/reward sweet spot mentioned above.

 

[Osrnoob]

Try Barrier Peaks. Or Act II & III of Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Instinctively support Malrex's mentioning of Huso but I have not personally checked him out.

Barrier peaks is cool, my thinking was to connect it to the flayer module you reviewed in 2e

"ALERT ALERT HUMANS WILL BE LAUNCHED TO SUPERIOR HOMEPLANET IN 5 4 3 2 1"

They then are on the flayer homebase, at least thats what I thought based on light reading.

Huso is cool, Bryce says overly hacky too and overwritten but good.

There has to be more though since the Blog OSR phase? Heck thats almost 20 years now right with OSRIC Grognardia?

It is likely not much has been published high level because no dms play that to mine material.

Gabor for example uses his games to write/polish stuff

 

[The1True]

Huso is cool, Bryce says overly hacky too and overwritten but good.

Dude, do you post from a cellphone while doing parkour or something? Following your stream of conscious is difficult and I speak fluent ADHD...

 

[Osrnoob]

Dude, do you post from a cellphone while doing parkour or something? Following your stream of conscious is difficult and I speak fluent ADHD...

...maybay

PARKOUR

What say the 10ftPoleans doh