The state of Post-OSR content

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
You did a great job on the recent Wilderlands release! This is not the necromancer one but the one you did like a year back.

Cant wait to see your version keyed!

What I meant to ask and maybe thisbdid not come through. How would you rank the JG wilderlands material in its original form?

For example:
1. Wilderlands of the Magic Realm
2. City State of the Invincible Overlord
3. Wilderlands of High Fantasy
4. Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches
5. City State of the Invincible Overlord Undercity

The reason I ask is I see lots of discussion about the first products but little about the later releases.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I have often thought that players who want this sort of game need to have a bit of DM in them. I think you need that same urge to build something, to make things happen in the world. And yes, the DM needs to be open to letting someone mess up his sandbox.
That's true. I was trying to get my character to do something like this in the 4e campaign I played. We had a first time DM though so it went according to script.
 

The Heretic

Should be playing D&D instead
I have gotten a lot of mileage out of letting players "trash" my setting.
*blink* You know, that is perfect.

When I was a kid I spent way too much time on my campaign world, and I expected my players to be noble, good people who would go around righting wrongs. Hahahah boy was I naive. They always wanted to play selfish reprobates. They would've trashed the parts of my setting that I wanted them to preserve.
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
As far as OSR material, the other factor is people publish for money. They may say they publish for love, but that's not true if its not free.
I disagree it more nuanced than that. The money allows me to do more than I would otherwise would. Better art, editing (and lord knows I need a lot of checking on that department). and so on. I still pick what I do and the way I do it because I am interested or like it.

I would say if making money is the primary then it starts to distorts even it is done for good reasons. Why? Overhead . Not just money, but time and resources. The existence of overhead means making decision based on how much $$$ can I earn for the time put into the project. Which invariably leads down the path of not doing certain projects. However it not just that simple either. Because with a team of folks with the attendant overhead you can do more expansive projects. So while some projects don't done other do.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
I disagree it more nuanced than that. The money allows me to do more than I would otherwise would. Better art, editing (and lord knows I need a lot of checking on that department). and so on. I still pick what I do and the way I do it because I am interested or like it.

I would say if making money is the primary then it starts to distorts even it is done for good reasons. Why? Overhead . Not just money, but time and resources. The existence of overhead means making decision based on how much $$$ can I earn for the time put into the project. Which invariably leads down the path of not doing certain projects. However it not just that simple either. Because with a team of folks with the attendant overhead you can do more expansive projects. So while some projects don't done other do.
Hi Rob,

Note that I didn’t say that was the sole factor, or that it was Rob Conley’s factor. But I’ve seen far too many conversations about publishing adventures among publishers in the last 15 years, some in-person at conventions or otherwise, where people flat out stated the difference in sales between level ranges, for me to reconsider my comment
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
You did a great job on the recent Wilderlands release! This is not the necromancer one but the one you did like a year back.

What I meant to ask and maybe thisbdid not come through. How would you rank the JG wilderlands material in its original form?

For example:
1. Wilderlands of the Magic Realm
2. City State of the Invincible Overlord
3. Wilderlands of High Fantasy
4. Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches
5. City State of the Invincible Overlord Undercity

The reason I ask is I see lots of discussion about the first products but little about the later releases.
I would put the City State of the Invincible Overlord first as the most solid and expansive out of all the Wilderlands Releases.

For the rest it gets complex and nuanced. First keep in mind that that the later the Judges Guild release is the more hands off Bob Bledsaw Senior and his original crew seems. There are definite tonal shifts so the entire line of Wilderlands stuff has inconsistent writing voices and unique flaws.

Wilderlands of High Fantasy
The first of the series and it shows. Not so much quality but in that they were figuring exactly what to do to present it. Map 1 CSIO is the most divergent and the format largely settled by Map 4 Tarantis and Map 5 Valon. Even the actual Map 1 was done way before Map 2 Barbarian Altanis. But luckily the format settled after Map 2. But the original Map 1 was shifted by a hex row compared to the later maps. Also WoHF is packed with a lot of supporting rules material.

Fantastic Wilderlands Beyond
The series hits it stride but loses it support material.

Wilderlands of the Magic Realms and Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches
Pretty much equal in quality, has the later Judges Guild layout that more polished. Feels like in some places they are just coming up with random stuff. For example there is an area with three villages of Lawful Good Orcs. Not quite close enough to explain as a some type of unique Orc kingdom so three separate explanations are needed.

Plus these two and FWB are what to get if you want to run same type of Argonaut/Odyssey style seafaring campaign.

City State of the World Emperor
I think this was done well, and until my release of Fantastic WIlderlands Beyonde, the only place where you get Map 6 CSWE. Map 6 has a minor flaw in that there were no castles or citadels except for two on the eastern edge carried over from Map 1. On the plus side we have a boat load of terrain description.

1618849014000.png

Wraith Overload (CSIO Sewers)
Great idea, evocative content, mediocre execution. But salvageable with a little elbow grease.

The Wilderness Series
Mines of Custalon, Spies of Lightelf, etc. Uneven and mostly mediocre but the maps are pretty good and impressive in the level of detail they convey for 5 mile hexes. All of these are salvageable with a little elbow grease.

The Other City States
Modron is better than Tarantis and has bunch of underwater stuff as well. Tarantis is mediocre but fleshes out Map 4 Tarantis a bit.

Wrapping it up.
Outside of Map 1 and 6. My recommendation is to be prepared to supply the high level details about who rules what and what folks are doing. While for the most part the entries come across random they are also great inspiration. So use what inspire you. Interpret the others nearby in that light. Don't hesitate to change anything you feel is out of whack.

I used the Wilderlands across multiple campaigns and multiple system using what happened as part of the background for the next. The biggest change came a decade in (circa 1988) with my originals about to fall apart. I chose to redraw the maps by hand and expand the scale from 5 miles to 5 leagues (12.5 miles). With a league defined as an hour's walk. I did this after a comment by more than one group that the distance between CSIO and CSWE ought to be bigger the way I portrayed them in my campaign.

Later when the internet got rolling I met some who did that themselves and others who kept the 5 mile scale. But I think the Wilderlands works best when you stick with it long term. Doing that makes the setting your own in a way that doesn't happen with Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms as you come up with explanations for why different random elements exist the way they do.
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
But I’ve seen far too many conversations about publishing adventures among publishers in the last 15 years, some in-person at conventions or otherwise, where people flat out stated the difference in sales between level ranges, for me to reconsider my comment
Yes and that is an important factor if one needs to consider how much $$$ one gets for the time invested.

But what also true today that projects are viable with a customer base in the low 100s. If they don't take up an excessive amount amount of the author's time over what a low or mid level adventure would take. At this level if it is a good and well presented I don't see it being any more difficult selling a 100 copies of a high level adventure and a 100 copies of a low level adventures. The fact that dozens of RPG works are released each week makes it a uphill battle either way.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
OK, well, I'm sure we will see lots and lots of high level adventures then very soon. :)

(like most of our exchanges where you take exception to some point of mine - I'm not really sure what we're arguing about after the 3rd post?)
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
I would put the City State of the Invincible Overlord first as the most solid and expansive out of all the Wilderlands Releases.

For the rest it gets complex and nuanced. First keep in mind that that the later the Judges Guild release is the more hands off Bob Bledsaw Senior and his original crew seems. There are definite tonal shifts so the entire line of Wilderlands stuff has inconsistent writing voices and unique flaws.

Wilderlands of High Fantasy
The first of the series and it shows. Not so much quality but in that they were figuring exactly what to do to present it. Map 1 CSIO is the most divergent and the format largely settled by Map 4 Tarantis and Map 5 Valon. Even the actual Map 1 was done way before Map 2 Barbarian Altanis. But luckily the format settled after Map 2. But the original Map 1 was shifted by a hex row compared to the later maps. Also WoHF is packed with a lot of supporting rules material.

Fantastic Wilderlands Beyond
The series hits it stride but loses it support material.

Wilderlands of the Magic Realms and Wilderlands of the Fantastic Reaches
Pretty much equal in quality, has the later Judges Guild layout that more polished. Feels like in some places they are just coming up with random stuff. For example there is an area with three villages of Lawful Good Orcs. Not quite close enough to explain as a some type of unique Orc kingdom so three separate explanations are needed.

Plus these two and FWB are what to get if you want to run same type of Argonaut/Odyssey style seafaring campaign.

City State of the World Emperor
I think this was done well, and until my release of Fantastic WIlderlands Beyonde, the only place where you get Map 6 CSWE. Map 6 has a minor flaw in that there were no castles or citadels except for two on the eastern edge carried over from Map 1. On the plus side we have a boat load of terrain description.

View attachment 1049

Wraith Overload (CSIO Sewers)
Great idea, evocative content, mediocre execution. But salvageable with a little elbow grease.

The Wilderness Series
Mines of Custalon, Spies of Lightelf, etc. Uneven and mostly mediocre but the maps are pretty good and impressive in the level of detail they convey for 5 mile hexes. All of these are salvageable with a little elbow grease.

The Other City States
Modron is better than Tarantis and has bunch of underwater stuff as well. Tarantis is mediocre but fleshes out Map 4 Tarantis a bit.

Wrapping it up.
Outside of Map 1 and 6. My recommendation is to be prepared to supply the high level details about who rules what and what folks are doing. While for the most part the entries come across random they are also great inspiration. So use what inspire you. Interpret the others nearby in that light. Don't hesitate to change anything you feel is out of whack.

I used the Wilderlands across multiple campaigns and multiple system using what happened as part of the background for the next. The biggest change came a decade in (circa 1988) with my originals about to fall apart. I chose to redraw the maps by hand and expand the scale from 5 miles to 5 leagues (12.5 miles). With a league defined as an hour's walk. I did this after a comment by more than one group that the distance between CSIO and CSWE ought to be bigger the way I portrayed them in my campaign.

Later when the internet got rolling I met some who did that themselves and others who kept the 5 mile scale. But I think the Wilderlands works best when you stick with it long term. Doing that makes the setting your own in a way that doesn't happen with Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms as you come up with explanations for why different random elements exist the way they do.
This is the best breakdown of the wilderlands I have ever seen! Thank you so much for your thoughts and experience!
 

squeen

8, 8, I forget what is for
@EOTB : Is it possible the OSR publication landscape has shifted again recently? Hasn't the bottom sort of fallen out of the profit motive due to market saturation and the resurgence of 5e? (...and, heck, all those other 5 "styles of play" who are looking for who-knows-what kind of products!)
 

robertsconley

*eyeroll*
Kickstarter is an important factor now. It may have started as a fund your dream thing, but it is now an effective pre-order and advertisement system. Provided you have everything done that possibly could be done beforehand.

For example this by a friend of mine.

And mine

The Bats of Saint Abbans
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
Agreed on Kickstarter. Its become so dominanted by big names it ruins the purpose.

FROSTHAVEN NEEDS A KICKSTARTER HU?!
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
@EOTB : Is it possible the OSR publication landscape has shifted again recently? Hasn't the bottom sort of fallen out of the profit motive due to market saturation and the resurgence of 5e? (...and, heck, all those other 5 "styles of play" who are looking for who-knows-what kind of products!)
I'm not sure its shifted in a way that will lead to more high-level adventures. Most of the people I know who could credibly do high level adventures (which is only a subset of everyone who could) aren't inclined to make product; I'd wager the floaters aren't likely to try their hands at high level adventures because there's less room for inexperienced enthusiasm there. You can go along in the lower levels not knowing what you don't know, but it's a little different at level 16, or 20+ in BECMI.

I would hypothesize that one of the attractions of B/X, unstated, is the road ending at level 12 or whatever (don't have my copy of B/X in front of me atm)
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
14 I believe but yeah

I hope thats the factor people make what they play

Always, who plays that high? I don't think it has ever been common
 

PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
Always, who plays that high? I don't think it has ever been common
I believe it was common to retire around Name level in ye Olden days, Gygax and company of course excluded, and nowadays with the rarity of long campaigns (that is to say, campaigns lasting more then 10 sessions) the numbers must be small. I am at session 32 with my party, we do 4-hour sessions on sunday and they are at level 3-5 now (they die pretty often). If you factor in an exponentially increasing xp requirement then the number of sessions you need for that stuff in B/X you are looking at...150-200 sessions before you are at 14 I'd imagine.
 

EOTB

So ... slow work day? Every day?
Yeah, I have at least 20x play at low-mid levels, very conservatively, as compared to high level play - which is also almost entirely DMed instead of on the art-facing side of the DM screen. And nearly all my high level play isn't organic; they weren't characters lovingly brought up from 1st; instead "F it, let's roll up some high level characters" and do a one shot or something.

Moves, graduations, marriages, kids - life in general - all works against organic high level play. Let alone the mercurial nature of what I'm fascinated with at the moment. We're lucky that D&D came out when it did, at the last gasp of an age where it was most common for someone to live their whole life in the town they grew up in. Because that sort of stability is necessary for high-level play, also.

One of the reasons I'm very pro-VTT is that it might be the tool that restores the paradigm Gygax and Co presumed; the player pool being stable.
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
I believe it was common to retire around Name level in ye Olden days, Gygax and company of course excluded, and nowadays with the rarity of long campaigns (that is to say, campaigns lasting more then 10 sessions) the numbers must be small. I am at session 32 with my party, we do 4-hour sessions on sunday and they are at level 3-5 now (they die pretty often). If you factor in an exponentially increasing xp requirement then the number of sessions you need for that stuff in B/X you are looking at...150-200 sessions before you are at 14 I'd imagine.
I think odnd treasure hoards being added for all monsters in lair does a lot. I know gp in the TX Spann games are mad high

Also Bryce seems like he has higher treasure. Lvl per significant dungeon treck sounds like. Bluebird has super high treasure too

More gambling, easy death easy money
 

Osrnoob

Should be playing D&D instead
I use knave which has 1000 xp per level and copper standard (gp is read as cp most places to model actual prices a bit more)

I also use the xp bank system of adnd. Not totally sold as I want death to matter. Gary is left over *.5 goes into xp bank. Trying XP deposits level you in one session to 1xp below next level -1 (I think this is LBB). Whats left over is *.3 into xp bank

I used the theif as the base xp for analysis

Carrousing tables but its cp for early levels. sp for mid and ep for high

The math says double speed of bx theif

Plus other xp scores like xp for elephants and mapping which can speed things up even more

If you use other material the treaure gets higher for higher level stuff which screws up the flat 1000 xp per level when unscaled gp = xp.

If I used both together then the leveling pace would speed up so fast that high levels would not exist to the point of level per session

At the end of the day this is all season to taste

We will see how it goes

I hope to model the TX/ Bluebird high stakes style a bit
 
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PrinceofNothing

High Executarch
Staff member
I use knave which has 1000 xp per level and copper standard (gp is read as cp most places to model actual prices a bit more)

I also use the xp bank system of adnd. Not totally sold as I want death to matter. Gary is left over *.5 goes into xp bank. Trying XP deposits level you in one session to 1xp below next level -1 (I think this is LBB). Whats left over is *.3 into xp bank

I used the theif as the base xp for analysis

Carrousing tables but its cp for early levels. sp for mid and ep for high

The math says double speed of bx theif

Plus other xp scores like xp for elephants and mapping which can speed things up even more

If you use other material the treaure gets higher for higher level stuff which screws up the flat 1000 xp per level when unscaled gp = xp.

If I used both together then the leveling pace would speed up so fast that high levels would not exist to the point of level per session

At the end of the day this is all season to taste

We will see how it goes

I hope to model the TX/ Bluebird high stakes style a bit
I told you only one can of Monster Energy per day or your mother is going to yell at me again.

When I did Carcosa I had a reliable 1.9 deaths per session and there is no Raise Dead in Carcosa (or at least not readily available). There are, however, bottomless PITS in Carcosa that you can kick people in if negotiations break down and say "THIS...IS...CARCOSA!"
I eventually ended up adding a carebears .5 XP is banked rule because sometimes people would die twice in a row, or twice in a single session (my record was 4 deaths, 3 of which were from a single player), and the progression became almost zero. It kind of depends on your style of GMing. The first few sessions should teach them that death is the reward of bad play and to illustrate some basics of play (which works better then flat out telling them); Treasure is often hidden, information can be gained from rumors, rumors are not always true, Not all Encounters must be fought, Not all Encounters can be won, Traps exist, Strategy above tactics, the Value of Preparation, Never trust an Elf when death is on the line etc. etc. etc.

It's alright to nursemaid a little in the first few sessions, I really enjoyed B1 because of that reason. B11 I would say is probably sub-optimal, as is that Skerples tomb thing unless your run your games more fast and loose.
 
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