The state of Post-OSR content

[Osrnoob]

Like .5 of all xp they have is banked or. 5 of xp beyond what they need for the level up at that time is banked?

How did that feel in game? Was it lame when they died and showed up a few levels above one? Did death feel like it had consequence ?

 

[PrinceofNothing]

Like .5 of all xp they have is banked or. 5 of xp beyond what they need for the level up at that time is banked?

How did that feel in game? Was it lame when they died and showed up a few levels above one? Did death feel like it had consequence ?

If you die, you get to keep half your xp. If you then die again, you get to keep half of it. So if you start with 2000 xp, and die once, then you are at 1000, then if you get 500 xp and die again, you are at (1000+500) = 750.

It works fine honestly. It's mainly to reduce the sting and with death being a common occurence it didn't have a tremendous amount of weight to it by the time they get got to the Citadel that Waits (that was like the Proto-Palace of Unquiet Repose, complete with Uyu-Yadmogh and the Sartoom!). It was a pretty trippy game, and players get jaded fast if its a slaughter-house, but if its a beautiful and engaging slaughterhouse and there is always stuff to explore then its fine. The main thing is that if you had a good character (with an 18 in statts or something) then that always sucked to lose.

 

[Osrnoob]

Right! Sounds like it worked well for your group! I am going to have to noodle on this.

The adnd extra xp after level up into bank at 50% might be too harsh based on what you are saying

 

[The Heretic]

A question with regards to GP=XP systems; how much does risk have an impact on the calculations for gold for xp? Could a high level fighter decide to slaughter a city and take all their gold to get a level, even though no one in the city could challenge him? On the flip side, maybe per Gary's comments in the DMG about monster XP being related to their relative challenge to the party (don't have the page number, sorry going off memory here), maybe gp=xp works the same way? If that 10th level fighter slaughters an orc compound and finds 10000 gp, maybe he only gets a percentage of the xp, if that. Otherwise at high level the best course of action is probably to slaughter low levels and take their gold.

Perhaps the reward system has to change drastically to encourage domain play. If the PCs only get reasonable amounts of xp by going to more challenging dungeons, then that's what they're going to do. If they can now get xp by working on their domains, then the domains will become the focus of the campaign.

 

[EOTB]

Yes, treasure XP is ratio'd for risk. The system really doesn't work right if you always get 1 XP per GP. You need the players to stumble into easy cash they didn't earn fairly regularly - stuff that spends the same but they don't get XP because it was just lying around with no guardian. (Note: this doesn't mean to stop giving out the same amount of treasure you think should be present with monsters and such - it means give out gold over and above that)

As far as the high level fighter just walking around through the city fearing nothing - we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure I could use all the 1E rules to nuke an uppity 20th level fighter using only a few hundred 0-levels, if the player was that arrogant! If a fighter loots a city by conquest, they've earned that money

 

[Beoric]

DMG p. 85:

Gold Pieces: Convert all metal and gems and jewelry to a total value in gold pieces. If the relative value of the monster(s) or guardian device fought equals or exceeds that of the party which took the treasure, experience is awarded on a 1 for 1 basis. If the guardian(s) was relatively weaker, award experience on a 5 g.p. to 4 x.p., 3 to 2, 2 to 1, 3 to 1, or even 4 or more to 1 basis according to the relative strengths. For example, if a 10th level magic-user takes 1,000 g.p. from 10 kobolds, the relative strengths are about 20 to 1 in favor of the magic-user. (Such strength comparisons are subjective and must be based upon the degree of challenge the Dungeon Master had the monster(s) pose the treasure taker.)

 

[The Heretic]

Thanks you two! I thought that was probably the case. I think then maybe you could leverage domain play by allowing the PCs to get XP for expanding their domain and meeting certain goals.

Then again, that might not be very exciting for most players of D&D.

 

[robertsconley]

When it cam some to domain play and other type of activities that "trashed" the setting. I jettisoned Gold for XP in favor of what now would be called a milestone award. It works by listening to the players to learn what their individual and group goals were. Then when they are achieved I give a major xp award. When a step is reach towards one of those goal I give a minor XP award. Sometime these goals are self-generated other arise out of the circumstances of the campaign. Back in the day I called this a roleplaying award.

The reason for this is because domain and "trashing" the setting can be just about anything that the players does to make a mark on the world. The continual drive to acquire gold that AD&D has by default doesn't fit most of the time and distorts what the players would or would not do. For example service to a feudal lord that not particularly lucrative in terms of gold but pays off enormously in patronage and social connections.

A form of Gold for XP still remained in that I had training rules. Mostly it was used by players who were just short of reaching a level. They would go find somebody to train with and spend the time and money to learn until they got enough XP to level. While confusing labeled also as training I kept the AD&D training for some classes as outlined below.

The below was typed around 1985.

 

[grodog]

And overwhelmingly, if you want to sell more copies of what you spent your time on, you publish from levels 1-8.

An excellent point, Steve. When you look at the Top 30 Adventures list that Paizo published in 2004, most of it was for levels 1-8, with only 7/30 (23%) single-starred (*) titles falling at or below that range, and with only 5/30 (16%) three-starred (***) titles falling completely above that range (where * includes both lower and higher than 8th level range, and *** is higher than 8th)). So, 16/30 are of levels 1-8 or less = 53%, while 23/30 = 77% are for lower through 8th levels (with some overlap higher too).

30 - The Ghost Tower of Inverness
29 - The Assassin's Knot
28 - The Lost City
27 - The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh
*** 26 - City of Skulls
25 - Dragons of Despair
*** 24 - City of the Spider Queen
* 23 - The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
* 22 - The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth
* 21 - Dark Tower
20 - Scourge of the Slave Lords
19 - Against the Cult of the Reptile God
18 - The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
17 - Ruins of the Undermountain
16 - The Isle of Dread
15 - Castle Amber
* 14 - Dead Gods
13 - Dwellers of the Forbidden City
12 - The Forge of Fury
11 - The Gates of Firestorm Peak
*** 10 - Return to the Tomb of Horrors
* 9 - White Plume Mountain
* 8 - Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil
7 - The Keep on the Borderlands
6 - The Desert of Desolation
* 5 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
4 - The Temple of Elemental Evil
*** 3 - Tomb of Horrors
2 - Ravenloft
*** 1 - Queen of Spiders

For some additional analysis, see the level grid charts at the Acaeum:
- AD&D modules: https://www.acaeum.com/library/addmodchart.html
- D&D modules: https://www.acaeum.com/library/ddmodchart.html

Moves, graduations, marriages, kids - life in general - all works against organic high level play. Let alone the mercurial nature of what I'm fascinated with at the moment. We're lucky that D&D came out when it did, at the last gasp of an age where it was most common for someone to live their whole life in the town they grew up in. Because that sort of stability is necessary for high-level play, also.

One of the reasons I'm very pro-VTT is that it might be the tool that restores the paradigm Gygax and Co presumed; the player pool being stable.

True that, on both fronts. While I've gotten more mid- (6-9th) and high-level play out of DMing game conventions over the past decade+, I've played PCs in our local Wilderlands campaign from 4/4 to 13/15 (semi-retired), from 1st to 10th (retired), and from 3/3 to 8/9 (current).

For some additional anecdotal analysis of campaign play longevity in the modern era, see Anthony Huso's blog at https://www.thebluebard.com/post/what-happens-in-the-abyss and https://www.thebluebard.com/post/dreams-of-darkness which have some nice summaries of his campaign history as part of the final adventure he wrote as its capstone.

Allan.

 

[Beek Gwenders]

For some additional anecdotal analysis of campaign play longevity in the modern era, see Anthony Huso's blog at https://www.thebluebard.com/post/what-happens-in-the-abyss and https://www.thebluebard.com/post/dreams-of-darkness which have some nice summaries of his campaign history as part of the final adventure he wrote as its capstone.

Allan.

Thanks for posting this Allan, hopefully this draws more people to Anthony’s blog. Anthony is the best voice on the net for 1e, either through his products, or the light he sheds on 1e and its possibilities through his actual campaign play. I find it hard not to be inspired by his blog.

 

[The1True]

Has anyone here ever played or DM'd one of the Masters adventures? I think my buddy may have converted at least one of them to AD&D 2e back in the day (M4 'Five Coins for a Kingdom' I think) but I don't have any recollection of it. I own M1 'Into the Maelstrom' but never had an opportunity to run it...

I honestly find it staggering that most of the campaigns in this community die out at intermediate level. I go into every new campaign fully expecting to make 20th level (at least) eventually (usually 2ish years).

 

[squeen]

Nice summary Allan. Most of those items are early TSR (pre 2e). Perhaps there is something to the notion that modules were initially thought to help a DM get his or her "sea legs" and by the time higher-levels are achieved the campaign is in full swing and the DM has discovered how to home-brew appropriate content.

 

[grodog]

Perhaps there is something to the notion that modules were initially thought to help a DM get his or her "sea legs" and by the time higher-levels are achieved the campaign is in full swing and the DM has discovered how to home-brew appropriate content.

While I think that's definitely possible, there are a number a fun high-level adventures that are not listed in the Top 30 from TSR, including:

- CA1-2
- DA1-4 and the original Temple of the Frog in Blackmoor
- EX1-2
- H2
- I9
- Return of the Eight (levels 6-12)
- WG5 and Maure Castle
- WG6
- X4-5

And none of those take into account the many non-TSR releases in high-level zones: RJK's Bottle City, Dark Druids, and Maze of Zayene series (and various other titles), Lichlords from Role-Aids (among many other options), The Lost Abbey of Calthonwey from Phoenix Games. Then you get into the d20 era with Necromancer Games' early titles like Demons & Devils, etc., etc. So, lots of good high-level stuff out there (although how much gets read vs. played probably remains a viable Q....).

Allan.

 

[grodog]

Thanks for posting this Allan, hopefully this draws more people to Anthony’s blog. Anthony is the best voice on the net for 1e, either through his products, or the light he sheds on 1e and its possibilities through his actual campaign play. I find it hard not to be inspired by his blog.

De nada. Huso's work is excellent, and well-worth pimping to the world =)

Allan.

 

[Osrnoob]

Phoenix Games?

I have never heard of them before, what else is good?

 

[grodog]

Phoenix Games? I have never heard of them before, what else is good?

Phoenix Games was an earlier incarnation of Gamelords, who published Thieves Guild among other things. See http://diffworlds.com/gamelords.htm for some more info/details.

Once you start to dip into the non-TSR well of content, much like the d20 avalanche, you'll find wildly varying quality of products, with the added challenge of incredibly small print runs in many cases. Some the best resources include:

- Lawrence Schick's book _Heroic Worlds_ (Prometheus Books, 1991)
- Tome of Treasures at http://tomeoftreasures.com/forum/index.php
- Afterglow2 at https://afterglow2.com/ which is itself a successor to Matthias' old afterglow page at https://web.archive.org/web/2004021...uni-hamburg.de/users/afterglo/rpg/nontsr.html
- The Acaeum's non-TSR forum at https://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10

Allan.

 

[Osrnoob]

For Swordthrust:
When in the adventure do the PCs discover they are in a Titans brain?

Is the head able to be ID'd from the outside or so large it is obscured?

What is to prevent them from entering another body part? Does only the head remain?

If so, how does the throne room awaken a bodyless Titan?

@PrinceofNothing

 

[PrinceofNothing]

WHO DARES SUMMON THE PRINCE OF NOTHI-Oh.


Fortune would have it, Patrick Stuart was inspired to purchase a copy and has given it his review, perhaps this will clarify matters and it is certainly interesting to look at it through the eyes of an Artpunkman.

In order:
1) They have to piece it together from the inhabitants, so gradually as they explore further.
2) It is immense but there is either a mountain around it, or the mountain is simply part of its flesh, as it is a being older then gods and thus it need not be made of flesh alone
3) No the titan can walk and is about a mile or so high if I recall correctly. They can't enter another part of it because there is no passageway.
4) The condition for the explanation is not met. Sitting on the throne with all the regalia puts you in telepathic contact with the titan I recall. The process is not survivable for a human being.

 

[Osrnoob]

Thank you so much! This is going to be seeded and I am very hype.

My style is more West Marches so we might need to start everytime in town for whoever joins.

Thank you for your reply!

P.S. your megadungeon series looks hype. ASE 1-3, Theracia, Stonehell 2, Barrowmaze 1, MoTBM, Xyntillian, heck WG4 might qualify. Its gonna be sweet.

 

[squeen]

Been reading more of Simulacrum's blog on exploring OSR Design. It's scholarly and well done.

For example, this quote jumped out at me

Fanatical game hobbyists often express the opinion that DUNGEONS & DRAGONS will continue as an ever-expanding, always improving game system. TSR and I see it a bit differently. … Americans have somehow come to equate change with improvement. Somehow the school of continuing evolution has conceived that D&D can go on in a state of flux, each new version “new and improved!” From a standpoint of sales, I beam broadly at the very thought of an unending string of new, improved, super, energized, versions of D&D being hyped to the loyal followers of the gaming hobby in general and role playing fantasy games in particular. As a game designer I do not agree, particularly as a gamer who began with chess. … As all of the ADVANCED D&D system is not written yet, it is a bit early for prognostication, but I envision only minor expansions and some rules amending on a gradual, edition to edition, basis. When you have a fine product, it is time to let well enough alone. I do not believe that hobbyists and casual players should be continually barraged with new rules, new systems, and new drains on their purses. Certainly there will be changes, for the game is not perfect; but I do not believe the game is so imperfect as to require constant improvement.

—Gary Gygax, Dragon #22 (February 1979)

I liked EGG's reference to chess. I think that's the niche AD&D should be mentally placed as the years go by. Same audience in many ways.
Anyone know who the author of that blog is? (on-line moniker)