Ask Melan

[Mica]

Wow, so awesome that this thread exists! Just started prepping a campaign in Erillion and my to-do list is getting big. Just a few questions for now but I foresee peppering poor Melan with many, many questions in the future. Thank you so much for being open to answering questions here, and I hope I don't overwhelm you so you dread visiting this forum.
Ok, so...
1. If you were going to place Castle Xyntillan in Erillion, where might you place it and what (if any) tweaks would you make to fit in better with the setting?
2. Being the aspiring fantasy writer/obsessive geek that I am, I want to go into finer detail in regards to the justice system. What were your historical inspirations for the Sea Laws and the Old Ways, and would you please point me in the direction of research into this matter?
3. In regards to magic, did you ever flesh out what M-Us learned at the Mage Tower that allowed them to cast 4th and 5th level spells without having to perform dangerous rituals? And why is this case, in-world, to begin with?

As a side note to the last question, I'm planning on making the 9th door of the Inn opening into the Ultan's Door adventure. And in the Dreamlands, the same limitations on magic may not apply. Just a thought

Anyway, thanks again!

 

[Mica]

BTW, Osrnoob, love the idea of starting the campaign with Lair of the Lamb. I was planning on starting it in Baklin using Karel M's "Statues," but I've always wanted to run a funnel!

 

[Osrnoob]

Thanks Mica! I am a noob, but I have been doing draconic hallways undergroundand and my players are having fun. People here help a lot too

There are other good funnels but this one is a teaching funnel. Its deadly but not insta Tpk. I heard about it from Bryce then found the guys Blog. Look at the design of the lamb, huge mOnStar that takes time to eat is great design.

Funnels are a great way to do it. Build stories and characters from play. Nobody is gonna be like I am the chosen one in a funnel. You also.have other characters that survive and can be NPCs or other character for players to jump into all built into the world through play. Skerples eat your heart out, its not even close.

If they do, thats funny too. Like the start of Mistborne but less epic

Please report back with Baklin! Play report us
Been really good for my groups

 

[Melan]

Welcome, Mica! I will try to answer to the best of my ability - with the understanding that in a lot of cases, there may be a lot less depth in the game world than you might think.

1. If you were going to place Castle Xyntillan in Erillion, where might you place it and what (if any) tweaks would you make to fit in better with the setting?

It is an odd combination, but it could be located in any of the mountainous areas, a bit out of the way. Perhaps in place of Spider Keep, in hex 1804?

2. Being the aspiring fantasy writer/obsessive geek that I am, I want to go into finer detail in regards to the justice system. What were your historical inspirations for the Sea Laws and the Old Ways, and would you please point me in the direction of research into this matter?

These legal systems were obviously not deeply elaborated (beyond establishing that one is more harsh, the other more lenient, and they work quite differently - the party did get tried, once). They come from pre-modern legal systems, which were usually similarly fragmented and inconsistent. Different social classes and territories may be subject to wildly different laws, obligations and privileges. Ecclesiastic matters were tried by different courts than the nobility, and the nobles were judged differently (and by different people) than free city dwellers or peasants. These are interesting cultural quirks to play with.

3. In regards to magic, did you ever flesh out what M-Us learned at the Mage Tower that allowed them to cast 4th and 5th level spells without having to perform dangerous rituals? And why is this case, in-world, to begin with?

None of the player characters in our campaign took a Test of Mastery, so it didn't come up in practice, but the test would be half a trial to measure magical problem solving ability (perhaps in a symbolic sense, too), and half an all too human case of power hoarding. The high-level spellcasters have the ability to hamstrung their disciples from rising through the ranks too quickly, so they do it out of pure self-interest and mischief.

As a side note to the last question, I'm planning on making the 9th door of the Inn opening into the Ultan's Door adventure. And in the Dreamlands, the same limitations on magic may not apply. Just a thought

That's a sensible idea!

 

[Osrnoob]

I would.like to.take this opportunity as someone.who has played in this or.my version of this world.

The lack of this detail is one reason I can use the books at the table. I looked at other cities like Plotus or Forgotten Relms books and noped out very quick.

If this detail was in the book mica would not wonder and we would not be here! Thank you Melan!

What other cities can we run at the table? CSIO? If we go to non keyed things I could run Rainy City but that is terse as well

Marlinko would be fun!

 

[Osrnoob]

Mica! The most helpful resources for me are echoes from fomulhault 3-4
there is a judges guild product mentioned there I found very fun to inform that setting

Also this https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2021/11/blog-hex-crawls-simple-guide.html?m=1

As Gabor says above don't prep much, be fluid and rely on simple prodcures form your isle through play at the table not before

City encounters by Matt Finch and Helvetzia RPG GM guide also great as more material to read but I have a reading problem

I am a hypocritical person, my weakness is too much stuff. I and we need to stop and play and let the table show us what we see

 

[LuckyLegs]

I'm weighing up potential purchases of some of the EMDT stuff and have a few questions regarding the overarching setting from Echoes. I'm hoping someone gracious here who has the material can throw me a bone, if not Melan himself.

One thing I'm struggling to get a handle on precisely is how different thematic elements of the setting compare to other available settings. This is mostly because I'm wondering what modules and systems would work well with the setting. Some things I've pondered include:

How "vanilla D&D" is this setting?
Do the usual array of demihumans and humanoids (dwarves, elves, halflings, goblins, orcs, trolls, etc) exist? Do they have prominent settlements in the world? I guess the flipside of the same question is, how humanocentric is the setting?
How far towards "swords & sorcery" do things lean? How comfortable a fit would a system like Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, or HYPERBOREA be, given *their* setting assumptions?
Are there D&D Clerics as NPCs? Paladins? Rangers? Bards? Druids? How do things compare thematically to, say, The Wilderlands? Are things a bit more restrained, or is it just as much of a kitchen sink?
Is there an assumed setup regarding pantheons of deities?

That's a lot of questions! I don't necessarily expect a separate answer for all of them, but hopefully that gives you an idea of what I'm wondering about. If there's an effective blurb somewhere that outlines these themes and I've somehow missed it, please do point me in the right direction!

I'm relatively new to the old-school scene, and so part of my interest here is due to wanting a ready-made setting to start playing in. There seems to be quite a few options out there. Would you recommend this setting (and the associated 'zines) to a newer referee such as myself?

 

[EOTB]

Less vanilla than Greyhawk because:
It is much more humanocentric - I can't recall any prominent demihuman presence at all
More swords and sorcery than greyhawk, very similar vibe to Conan comics although not using their specific mix of races, etc. Not high fantasy at all, there's no shining cities of ultimate good, most cities are decayed from a peak somewhere in the past, corrupt, etc.
All the classes are present, IMO it is less kitchen sink than Wilderlands while still offering the same sandbox hexcrawl play style
There are many deities but they are much more local than in most default D&D settings.

Strongly recommend it. The only thing characteristic of the products that may surprise DMs coming from later editions is the hand-drawn maps which aren't on a grid. So size is easy to see in relation to other buildings, but you're not given dimensions for everything. I don't find this too much of a difficulty as I can almost always find a small square room on the map whose dimensions are easy to parse out, and then use that as block to parse other bigger or irregular building sizes.

In the grand scheme of things this is a flavor quirk that doesn't hold me back in any way, and since it provides in spades so many other elements that are hard to find elsewhere I'm more than happy to accommodate it. (The maps also look really cool and convey a great S&S aesthetic)

(Castle Xyntillian is on a grid, however, as a notable exception)

 

[Melan]

LuckyLegs: Echoes From Fomalhaut currently covers two fairly different settings.

The first of these is an unnamed, fairly vanillaish setting (tentatively named "Wanderlands" or "Drifting Lands" until something better comes up) which includes: the Isle of Erillion, the Twelve Kingdoms, and the Kassadian Empire. The tone is more Gygaxian Greyhawk than Wilderlands; and in fact parts of the setting slots into Greyhawk without much difficulty. This setting mostly works from the AD&D core book baseline, with the same array of classes and races (although more humanocentric). Nevertheless, if it is in AD&D, it is in the setting. The few departure points are:

• Monetary treasure is more scarce, approximately 1/5 of the book values. This can be handled with a *5 multiplier if desired.
• Higher level magic-use (4th+ level spells) requires taking a test with a M-U organisation. This can be easily disregarded.

The three regions described so far:

• The Isle of Erillion (issues #01 to #08, overview in #02, hex descriptions in #03-#04) is a large island, vaguely inspired by 13th century England. Erillion is ruled by a small maritime principality, inhabited on its coastal areas, but featuring lots of mountainous or forested wilderness in its interior. The tone is more or less vanilla. Also includes Baklin, Jewel of the Seas, a city supplement. The setting is now more or less "complete", although there are materials I would still like to publish for it in some form.
• The Twelve Kingdoms (issues #08 and on, overview in #09) is a more northern archipelago of small, quarrelling kingdoms on a barren, wild northern land inspired by the Celtic fringe, Finland, and Jack Vance's Lyonesse novels. This is a slightly grimier shade of fantasy, although with touches of surreal stuff. This is the current focus of the zine.
• The Kassadian Empire is the remains of a Rome-like empire that never fell, but disintegrated into numerous rival city-states and principalities. The style is "Roman ruins meet mediaeval Italy". This setting has a more specific style; decadent and cloak-and-dagger stuff. Not much of this setting has appeared specifically in the zine (except more recently, in issues #09 and #10), but a standalone module by a friend (In the Shadow of the City-God) has been released, and a large B/X sandbox campaign module is forthcoming in addition to two smaller OSRIC modules (this is a bit confusing, but that's how we played them).

The campaign materials from the first two would easily find a home in a general AD&D or D&D game. You may adjust things a bit, but no more than par for course, really. They should work both in their original context, and separately. You can also import existing modules easily, as I have done with various Judges Guild, TSR, and modern old-school materials.

The second main setting is the City of Vultures, a specific corner of the world of Fomalhaut (which has ironically received no coverage in the zine otherwise yet). This is a highly exotic campaign set in an ancient, decadent city-state ruled by shadowy conspiracies, and built on top of a deep, interconnected underworld from an age of lost high technology. The City of Vultures has been inspired by Indo-Persian civilisations, Empire of the Petal Throne, Fritz Lang's paranoid movies (and film noir in general), the Flash Gordon comics, and so forth. These materials appear from Echoes #03 and on, with increasing frequency from #06. An overview is found in #06, and a wilderness supplement in #08. Also of note is the Nocturnal Table, a supplement for generating city encounters and flavour that was originally developed for this city. You can try it for free on Chartopia (courtesy of tuirgin), and there is a comprehensive Fantasy Grounds implementation by EOTB.

This definitely carries very strong flavour and assumptions. It is almost completely humanocentric (some gnolls and goat-men notwithstanding), and has a strong weird fantasy/planetary romance element. The gods are petty and capricious, and the world is mostly independent city-states with a heavy emphasis on sailing and adventures on strange islands. The City of Vultures, and Fomalhaut in general would be a natural fit for Hyperborea or Seven Voyages of Zylarthen (the latter of which has no cleric class). Coincidentally, we have just started a Zylarthen campaign in the setting last weekend. PM me for our house rules doc if interested.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Arparrabiosa]

Melan, how does your dungeon design process look like (specially the early stages)? Do you start with a navigational flow idea or do you apply that later as an analytical tool to ensure everything is in order? Do you think in rooms and conections between them or do you insert rooms in the navigational flow chosen beforehand? What useful structures do you often use (I'm thinking about more complex structures than basic loops and branches)?

 

[LuckyLegs]

Thanks both of you for taking the time to respond—very helpful indeed!

I didn't actually realise the City of Vultures and Fomalhaut were separate from the rest, so that's useful to know. The inspirations you list for Fomalhaut are a very cool mixture! I will definitely be visiting your Big Cartel very soon.

I have another question which I hope you'll find interesting. A while ago I came across a post from the Secrets of Blackmoor blog which asserted—rather disparagingly—that D&D as a product lost the essence of what made Blackmoor a "living world": the layering of the strategic, the tactical, and the "Braunstein" scales of game. The point comes across as a bit snobbish to me, and I think the author makes more than a few assumptions about just what the wider world does with their games. All this did make good food for thought, however, as it does seem about right at least that domain play is a bit of a niche pursuit within the hobby.

Being the veteran referee and creator that you are, what are your thoughts on domain play as a worthwhile activity, especially for the most common scale of gaming groups today? I note that somewhere in the comments of your blog someone shared a translation of your "Bulls and Mine Rights". How much has this sort of thing featured in your gaming?

How much—and please take this as simply a matter of curiosity—would the materials in EFF support the domain play style of gaming?

Obviously, not everyone has their own Castle & Crusade Society, and indeed many folks may simply lack interest in such things, so is the point moot? Do we really play in a "static" world if we don't expand the scope of our games? If so, is there anything really wrong with that?

I'm wondering if I have a habit of asking too many questions Any discussion at all that those here found the interest and time for would be well received.

 

[Melan]

Melan, how does your dungeon design process look like (specially the early stages)? Do you start with a navigational flow idea or do you apply that later as an analytical tool to ensure everything is in order? Do you think in rooms and conections between them or do you insert rooms in the navigational flow chosen beforehand? What useful structures do you often use (I'm thinking about more complex structures than basic loops and branches)?

This may not be as helpful as it could be, since I often work by instinct, not conscious deliberation - that is, I do what feels right at a given moment. But here is how it usually goes.

My usual process is iterative.

• I start from a very general idea of the dungeon, an initial visual impression.
• After that, I typically establish a few main areas I want to include, which will form the "skeleton" of the map, and establish the main ideas and challenges for the dungeon.
• This is where I usually draw the map, leaving room for additional rooms and establishing the connection system. I try to think in terms of alternate access routes (for different player approaches, and offering different risks and advantages), three-dimensional elements (like galleries, overlooks, multi-level rooms, pits, waterways and chasms), and navigation-based puzzles. Also places where something interesting might happen - a dead end where the party may get cornered, or a hidden way which allows them to observe a group of monsters from a safe point, if they discover it.
• After the map is finished, I stock the place, often relying on random generation to create basic ideas for the rooms. During the stocking process, things typically come together, previously inexplicable things start to make sense (at least as a mysterious locale), and you can integrate gameplay and background.
• At this stage, I sometimes go back and revise / fix the original designs for coherence or to adjust for better gameplay.

Sometimes, I also use randomly generated maps to avoid getting stale and locking myself into my usual thought patterns. These basic maps are then modified to taste, although it is often just as rewarding to work with exactly what you are given.

 

[Arparrabiosa]

Thank you, Melan. I always struggle with designing my own dugeons, even if I can decide if an already done dungeon is good or not. Which random generators do you prefer for stocking the rooms?

 

[squeen]

Thank you, Melan. I always struggle with designing my own dugeons, even if I can decide if an already done dungeon is good or not. Which random generators do you prefer for stocking the rooms?

I strongly encourage you to make your own material (starting small, of course). That's when (O/A)D&D really some alive.

 

[Melan]

I have another question which I hope you'll find interesting. A while ago I came across a post from the Secrets of Blackmoor blog which asserted—rather disparagingly—that D&D as a product lost the essence of what made Blackmoor a "living world": the layering of the strategic, the tactical, and the "Braunstein" scales of game. The point comes across as a bit snobbish to me, and I think the author makes more than a few assumptions about just what the wider world does with their games. All this did make good food for thought, however, as it does seem about right at least that domain play is a bit of a niche pursuit within the hobby.

This is an interesting issue, since Blackmoor definitely had a layer of different games taking place within a shared world. Where posts like the one you mention go astray is that in Blackmoor, dungeon-crawling (what would turn into D&D) was clearly the weird offshoot, and wargaming the main course.

This style of wargaming is fascinating, since at this stage, it was really far from, say, a Warhammer tournament, and much closer to the 4X grand strategy games played on computers - Civilization, Master of Magic or Crusader Kings. Complex world simulation that would move into new forms of play based on player and GM whims, and evolve continuously around a table. This is documented in Arneson's First Fantasy Campaign, and much less clumsily in the essays that have been republished as Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming (this one's a winner, I can wholeheartedly recommend picking it up).

However, what these pieces miss is how table-specific and non-portable these games were - really dinosaur-like, and no wonder they diedout shortly after they evolved into their late form. Role-playing games, on the other hand, are structured enough to be bottled and sold, yet flexible enough to expand outwards if needed. We have just forgotten that we can do it. Once the realisation hits, it is easy enough.

Being the veteran referee and creator that you are, what are your thoughts on domain play as a worthwhile activity, especially for the most common scale of gaming groups today? I note that somewhere in the comments of your blog someone shared a translation of your "Bulls and Mine Rights". How much has this sort of thing featured in your gaming?

How much—and please take this as simply a matter of curiosity—would the materials in EFF support the domain play style of gaming?

In our case, the guidelines for skirmish combat and domain management emerged organically from campaigns we were playing at the time, when the players expressed an interest in holding on to a specific village they had cleared of evildoers, or inherited from its previous owners. So I cooked up some basic rules, plundering Empire of the Petal Throne, Wilderlands of High Fantasy, and a simplified economic geography model from my day job, added ideas from The King of Dragon Pass and its older predecessor, Castles, and we delved into them. This was quite fun, although in the second campaign, playing SimVillage was a bit too much for my liking for a fantasy adventure game. Turns out if you receive a nice new hammer and a saw, there will be a whole lot of hammering and sawing going on, even when the poor GM expected, and prepared for a nice cellar adventure!

The issues didn't really emerge in later campaigns, at least not on this level, so the guidelines haven't developed all that much, although we still use the mass combat rules when they come up. But the example is there - you can expand the scope of play organically, and transform the play experience. But there are also limits to the exercise - do you want to play domain management to spice up your fantasy game, or do you want to play a domain management game? Is everyone at the table happy with that?

 

[Melan]

Thank you, Melan. I always struggle with designing my own dugeons, even if I can decide if an already done dungeon is good or not. Which random generators do you prefer for stocking the rooms?

I wrote a blog post about my favourite random tables here - this covers a lot of the usual suspects. The Tome of Adventure Design has a new edition now, worth checking out! I also use my own generators, published as Proclamations of the Fomalhaut Oracle in Fight On! #4. Recently, I have been developing a new set of dungeon generation tables in play, but they are still in the testing stage. Unlike Matt Finch, who has a knack for writing random tables, my development process is really slow in this field.

 

[squeen]

I specifically write in areas deep in the campaign underworld were mass combat is intended to arise if the PCs get there. Quasi-safe locations where fortifications can be constructed and troops raised. It may seem a weird wrinkle, but this is what we did in the 70's. It allows for that war gaming element to creep in, but at smaller scale and in a natural way.

 

[Melan]

I specifically write in areas deep in the campaign underworld were mass combat is intended to arise if the PCs get there. Quasi-safe locations where fortifications can be constructed and troops raised. It may seem a weird wrinkle, but this is what we did in the 70's. It allows for that war gaming element to creep in, but at smaller scale and in a natural way.

Do you mean the deep underworld as in "below the dungeons", or do you use it in some other way? This sounds really fascinating.

 

[squeen]

I would not say that I use the term rigidly, but if we say dungeons look like human scale rooms with 10' corridors on a grid, there are portions (usually lower levels) that open up into very large connected caverns like the elements of the D-series. The regular "dungeon crawl" opens up so that it's outdoors-ish, but underground.

In that framework you can have large enough areas for fortified installations, battle-plains, villages to mobilize, etc.

When I was a player in the 70's, my DM used this conceit. In one "dungeon" in particular, there was a town whose local population was divided between two political rivals --- one peace-loving and one hawk-ish (and both troublesome!). To the north end of the cavern there was a wall with a huge black gate. The small village was essentially enslaved to the Nazgul that lived beyond it. If the flow of goods ever stopped (i.e. if the PCs subverted the village), an army would eventually pour out of the black gate and attack.

This gave us a venue for using castle-building and army raising mechanics to build our defenses.

As an added wrinkle, the only obvious way out of the dungeon was beyond the black gate. You could explore many lateral areas (hoping to find some magical weapons, allies, gold for castle-building, etc.), but the obstacle did eventually have to be overcome.

The year before I joined the group, a previous party (all deceased by then) repeatedly battled the Nazgul for 6 months before finally succumbing to defeat. This became known in our small gaming circle as "The Six Month War". When I was a player, we did eventually defeat the baddie only to die in his Black City beyond the gate via our own overconfident stupidity.

One rule we employed for troops, which admitted broke verisimilitude, was that if a fighter reached a sufficient level, then (if they had the cash to build a castle) they could "called troops" --- even if the mixture of summoned troops wasn't terribly realistic for the environment. Very hand-wave-y, but it provided the canon fodder for the battles.

Sometimes the enemy attacked before the fortifications were ready...

------

In my home campaign, I wanted to replicate this experience but without some of the OD&D-ish prestidigitation mechanics. So instead of an underworld town, I placed a dwarven colony in a tight situation --- a fortified pocket of caverns surrounded by enemies in the lower levels of a mega-dungeon. The dwarves are essential under seige until the party arrives. If the PCs can negotiate their way into the stronghold, they can ally themselves, make sorties into enemy occupied territory (and beyond) and try to aide the dwarves. It's a quasi-static stalemate the PCs can break --- most likely resulting in the evil powers foregoing the siege and launching an all-out attack --- but perhaps not.

The way it played out in our campaign was the party+dwarves beat back the first assault and reconnected the dwarves with some lost allies. The two groups are poised to reclaim territory from one of the two surrounding evil factions, but are desperately short of raw materials to produce armaments. The party escaped the dungeon via a hidden route and promised to return with supplies and reinforcements.

The size of the battles were on the order of 200-400 troops per side, which was cumbersome but manageable using units of 10. PCs were between 5-7th level at the onset.

Outdoors, there are other situations that were designed to precipitate PC-led battles. We've had one already and another is boiling to a head.

Truth be told, I am writing on a computer program for mass combat to speed these larger battles up. It will use AD&D combat rules at the individual monster/fighter level, but command of units will be at a tactical level on the battlefield, almost like a graphical turn-based video game. If a PC is embedded in a division as a field-commander, then he/she can command it's units...otherwise the (stupid) AI does the job.

The goal being that conversion of (mixed) troop-elements into units is not required and that mass combat resolution can occur rapidly in game since my players are not terribly war-game minded (because of the drudgery). I too found the mass-combat rules I tried (ACKS & Book of War) a bit tedious to prepare and execute.

Too much info?

 

[Beoric]

This is probably a good way to approach a mass-combat-heavy domain game for most people. Tunnels make for obvious approaches to fortification, and it is not necessary to understand the vagaries of actual above-ground fortification and combat, which are not well known and usually badly simulated by mass-combat systems (I'm looking especially at you, cavalry charge).